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Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
57
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Posted - 2014.05.05 15:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Someone else has a shiny toy that I want, but I can't get it because theirs is the only one I see!
Make it fair CCP, either take their toy away or give me something shiny!
Someone just flew by me in an Ishukone Scorpion, so give me an Apocalypse Imperial Issue!
....
You know if it's that big of an issue between indy players you could always just stop rattling those sabres around in the ship hangar and put them to good use |
Sigras
Conglomo
748
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Posted - 2014.05.05 17:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Sigras wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI. So you're telling me that if I gave you a choice between a vagabond BPO and 200 billion ISK right now, you'd take the vagabond BPO? because thats the choice BPO holders make every day. There are dozens of people with more money than math credits who are chomping at the bit to get a T2 BPO for ridiculous prices. Im assuming your goal is to make the most money fastest, and T2 BPOs are not the way to do that. In fact, if you have a T2 BPO the way to make the most ISK fastest is to sell it and get into trading. I would have taken the BPO a year or two back if I had the money back then; nowadays and with all the changes and possible removal of these BPOs, I would take the money instead and ignore the sweet market domination and juicy profits. I am not after fast money at all, I am after entertainment and do whatever I have to get it for me. so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...
So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.
This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit... |
Sigras
Conglomo
748
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Posted - 2014.05.05 17:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions t2 bpos are going away deal with it. and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing. some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game. Do you have a problem with my math or my logic? or are you simply ignoring everything except your pre conceived ideas because you dont know how to think critically? Im betting on that last one. yes your math is wrong AND so is your logic. bla bla bla no bla bla bla Ok, feel free to point out any problems with my math and/or logic ... ill wait ...
Perhaps I should simplify things for you so you can understand...
A Vagabond BPO makes 1 vagabond every 28 hours 45 minutes at PE 20 that Vagabond costs you 115,000,000 ISK in materials/installation cost that Vagabond will sell for 160,000,000 ISK or so
that means you get 25 vagabonds a month, and you make 45 million on each vagabond.
This means your profit is 1.125 billion ISK each month
That means if you can sell your BPO for 200 billion you would have to produce from it for 177.777 months in order to make that much
Thats 14 freaking years. Therefore selling the BPO and doing something else with the enormous amounts of cash is the correct financial decision.
Feel free to point out any mistakes ive made ... ill wait ... |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association 24eme Legion Etrangere
50
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Posted - 2014.05.05 17:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions t2 bpos are going away deal with it. and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing. some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game. Do you have a problem with my math or my logic? or are you simply ignoring everything except your pre conceived ideas because you dont know how to think critically? Im betting on that last one. yes your math is wrong AND so is your logic. bla bla bla no bla bla bla Ok, feel free to point out any problems with my math and/or logic ... ill wait ... Data... ... . ill wait ... I bought a Tech 2 BPO on risk with no guarantee that it would last
Yeah but most T2 BPO's have been exploited by the original owners since they were won. Including years of much larger profit before Tech 2 components.
Remember 10M-15M Cap recharger II when they used to be built with a sprinkle of minerals?
I remember I bought my first Ishtar at 70M from Naga corp and that had profit in it. My first Rapier was 75M. Some people and some corps (eg: RKK) have been milking these lottery prizes for 10 yrs+
There will be winners and losers but I think it is right to nerf the Tech 2 BPO's (whilst I agree they should not be erased).
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
478
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Posted - 2014.05.05 18:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sigras wrote: so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...
So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.
This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit...
No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
847
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Posted - 2014.05.05 18:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Yeah but most T2 BPO's have been exploited by the original owners since they were won. Including years of much larger profit before Tech 2 components.
Remember 10M-15M Cap recharger II when they used to be built with a sprinkle of minerals?
I remember I bought my first Ishtar at 70M from Naga corp and that had profit in it. My first Rapier was 75M. Some people and some corps (eg: RKK) have been milking these lottery prizes for 10 yrs+
There will be winners and losers but I think it is right to nerf the Tech 2 BPO's (whilst I agree they should not be erased).
You aren't undercutting anything buy building only one ship at a time.
Rivr Luzade wrote: No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.
But you are just saying that, he's already shown you the math indicating that they don't outclass invention, in fact everyone in this thread that does invention says that invention is better, sure your profit margins are smaller, but your return on investment is pretty much instant and you can produce in such large quantities that any advantage the t2 bpo gives you is rendered moot.
The only way someone would get any real advantage by having t2 bpos is if they had 10 or so (they must all be of an item that actually have good margins or else "what's the point") and they got them from the lottery so they don't have to recoup the 200+ billion isk purchase cost. |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
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Posted - 2014.05.05 18:35:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Sigras wrote: so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...
So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.
This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit...
No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else. Except for capital costs, capital risk, lack of flexibility, scalability, relocation risk, and a wealth of other factors, sure, T2 BPOs outclass invention... if ME and avoiding the admittedly annoying invention process is all you care about.
Frankly you're never going to have "equality" even if T2 BPOs do go away. People manufacturing in certain 0.0 outposts will be able to manufacture more efficiently than those in empire, and then there's the teams mechanic, lord knows how that will shake out. There will always be somebody better positioned/better vertically integrated than you too.
CCP isn't going to straight up remove anything, they will either make invention more profitable/less annoying through adjusting Invention ME or the invention process, or they will find a way to reduce BPO production. They said T2 BPO values will go down, and there will be a transition period, beyond that, there's not much to be said. |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
380
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Posted - 2014.05.05 18:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Trolling post removed.
Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
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Posted - 2014.05.05 19:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:The only way someone would get any real advantage by having t2 bpos is if they had 10 or so (they must all be of an item that actually have good margins or else "what's the point") and they got them from the lottery so they don't have to recoup the 200+ billion isk purchase cost.
I hear if you mine your own ore, that means the ore is free, am I right guys? |
LiBraga
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
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Posted - 2014.05.05 19:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Octoven wrote:LiBraga wrote:During the Industry Panel yesterday @FanFest...
CCP have said that they will be removing T2 BPOs. Expect to hear more about it after the summer expansion, probably when they redo the Invention balancing.
And for all you T2 BPO owners... they did say that you'll receive some form of compensation. This is another troll post, that was never said, please stick to the topic...infact can we get ISD to go ahead and edit his post?
Unfortunately for you... they won't and that's because everything I've said is factually correct.
They won't do anything about it now and it makes sense that they will look at it in more depth when they revise invention (as the two areas are associated) . Either way... it will be after the summer expansion.
Go check out any blog about the Indy panel @Fanfest... the 3 most known ones all have it on there. NOTE :- Do not confuse the Indy Presentation with the Indy Panel... One was a presentation, the other was Q&A. If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time. |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
419
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Posted - 2014.05.06 07:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.
you are doing it wrong.
You can spam several lines with bpc's. Yes the t2 owner makes 1 item cheaper. YOu make 10 in the same time. After their daily builds are bought up....its now invention's ballgame. CCP did not release 30000 hac bpos'...at some point the bpo based items are gone.
Invention gives flexibility. CCP nerfs t2 ship/imodule....its not going to be a hot seller a good prediction . Smart inventors saw this change in the wind while still on SISI and switched to the new hotness yet to be gold disked and stopped inventing the item about to take sales slumps. T2 owner is stuck hoping for sales and maybe a rebufff later..
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Tar'z
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay. The counter argument seems to be: The T2 BPO will always bring in more profit being sold than being used.
What is unfair seems to be: That CCP handed these BPOs out to a select number of players thus new players have no shot at such a deal themselves. The counter argument seems to be: CCP gives out lots of rewards that have special bonuses, it's always been that way and this is no different.
This is where I have to disagree. If CCP hands out a fancy ship or officer modules to a player or player group, that gives them an advantage but the advantage is always destructible. T2 BPO on the other hand can be used in such a way that they are never at risk. I don't have a problem with CCP giving players an advantage as a reward, but I do think this advantage should always be destructible when used.
I'd vote for complete removal of T2 BPO from the game therefore, even if that does screw over a couple of people. |
Sigras
Conglomo
751
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tar'z wrote:The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay. You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game? |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Tar'z wrote:The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay. You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game? Even in a vacuum that argument doesn't hold up, T1 BPOs are bought from NPCs, and us original owners only had to purchase T2 BPOs in varying amounts of RP. Certainly not the prices they command these days.
In my opinion there should be a mechanic for players to get T2 BPOs without having to purchase them from others. It's pretty clear CCP is leaning the other direction though towards reducing their effects/phasing them out. |
Tar'z
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.05.07 02:40:00 -
[45] - Quote
I mean acquired through the environment.
The only other items to my knowledge that can only be acquired through player trading are items that provide no added benefit, or provide added benefit but can be effectively destroyed in space.
The T2 BPO is a rare gifted item that provides additional benefits but can also be used with complete safety. If there are other gifts of a similar nature then I'd like to hear it, I'm new-ish to the game so of course I could be missing something from the past. |
Sigras
Conglomo
752
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 07:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gamer4liff wrote:Sigras wrote:Tar'z wrote:The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay. You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game? Even in a vacuum that argument doesn't hold up, T1 BPOs are bought from NPCs, and us original owners only had to purchase T2 BPOs in varying amounts of RP. Certainly not the prices they command these days. In my opinion there should be a mechanic for players to get T2 BPOs without having to purchase them from others. It's pretty clear CCP is leaning the other direction though towards reducing their effects/phasing them out. You were in game when invention was introduced just like I was... This means that one of four things happened:
1. You got a T2 BPO 2. You had a TON of RP and made Billions selling datacores/inventing 3. You had a TON of RP but were an idiot and tried to sell them at the same time as everyone else 4. You were an idiot and didnt bother with research even though it had no opportunity cost.
either way, you either made a ton of ISK or you screwed up somehow and it's your fault that you didnt... |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 12:59:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sigras wrote: You were in game when invention was introduced just like I was... This means that one of four things happened:
1. You got a T2 BPO 2. You had a TON of RP and made Billions selling datacores/inventing 3. You had a TON of RP but were an idiot and tried to sell them at the same time as everyone else 4. You were an idiot and didnt bother with research even though it had no opportunity cost.
either way, you either made a ton of ISK or you screwed up somehow and it's your fault that you didnt...
Did you even read my post? I have 4 T2 BPOs, I won all of them over multiple research characters years ago after invention came out, but before the lottery ended, but that's besides the point. My point is that saying "well players in these days can just buy a T2 BPO from other players" is a cop out. They didn't have the opportunities I had to get them through the game environment. I believe that players should have the opportunities to get T2 BPOs again from the game itself, regrettably though it seems CCP is going the other direction. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5849
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 13:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 13:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is. There's nothing stopping people from accumulating skillpoints over time though so that argument falls flat. The mechanism by which players gain T2 BPOs was straight up removed. Frankly I think people who spend a lot of time inventing items deserve a crack at gaining BPOs for the items they invent.
Not even advocating for equality, again, merely equality of opportunity. |
drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.
I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours.
That's what I meant when I said 'It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.'
Once T2 BPO owners have the ability to mass produced their items from squillions of high end BPCs then it's over for the common inventor.
Well done CCP, you deserve a massive round of applause. |
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Sigras
Conglomo
755
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
drillerkiller2004 wrote:ExookiZ wrote:Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.
I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours. That's what I meant when I said 'It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.'Once T2 BPO owners have the ability to mass produced their items from squillions of high end BPCs then it's over for the common inventor. Well done CCP, you deserve a massive round of applause. confirming that a 5% increase will suddenly allow T2 BPO owners to increase their yield 1000% |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
486
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
drillerkiller2004 wrote:CCP constantly make changes in game to make it a bit easier for newer players and keep it fair.
What's fair about players//alliances owning T2 BPO's that were given to them 10/11 years prior to any of these guys starting up. Especially when there's no chance of them ever attaining them the same way.
CCP should set a future date and get rid of them, make T2 a level playing field of invention alone.
It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.
Now I totally expect to get flamed by the alliances or individuals that own the BPOs, but I'm sorry guys you will have to get over it. You've had it too good for too long.
Right on. Also, we should probably zero out everyone's wallet and assets periodically. It's not fair to new players that some people are running around with trillion isk personal fortunes that they could never hope to match.
And this skill system is ridiculous. I have over 120m SP - how is someone starting today supposed to ever be my equal? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5889
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
Gamer4liff wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is. There's nothing stopping people from accumulating skillpoints over time though so that argument falls flat. The mechanism by which players gain T2 BPOs was straight up removed. Frankly I think people who spend a lot of time inventing items deserve a crack at gaining BPOs for the items they invent. Not even advocating for equality, again, merely equality of opportunity.
The mechanism by which people get Gecko drones will be straight up removed by the end of the month.
Do we delete those drones, too? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 17:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:drillerkiller2004 wrote:CCP constantly make changes in game to make it a bit easier for newer players and keep it fair.
What's fair about players//alliances owning T2 BPO's that were given to them 10/11 years prior to any of these guys starting up. Especially when there's no chance of them ever attaining them the same way.
CCP should set a future date and get rid of them, make T2 a level playing field of invention alone.
It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.
Now I totally expect to get flamed by the alliances or individuals that own the BPOs, but I'm sorry guys you will have to get over it. You've had it too good for too long. Right on. Also, we should probably zero out everyone's wallet and assets periodically. It's not fair to new players that some people are running around with trillion isk personal fortunes that they could never hope to match. And this skill system is ridiculous. I have over 120m SP - how is someone starting today supposed to ever be my equal?
Don't be ridiculous. |
drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6
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Posted - 2014.05.11 22:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
I see the T2 BPO fire sales have started |
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