|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
The difference is this change involves an area of space that has been publicly stated by CCP to be special. That specialness is the mystery, the fact they didn't expect people to live there full time and settle the space, and the risk of the unknown with no local.
Should it have taken years? No Are people going to be upset something they rely on goes away? Yes Should there be in game mechanics to duplicate this some how with deployables? Sure
So there is some merit to the argument that game design should take a look at this. From an API perspective though it clearly shouldn't be there at this point. Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aryth wrote:Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.
It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?" Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Two step wrote:OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:
The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.
The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?
There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?
I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.
The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.
I am not sure I would have made the "But my PROFIT" argument for an API change. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
RudinV wrote:can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here
I cannot think of a single area of the game goons are not involved in somehow. One thing about being big, there is a SIG for everyone. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote: It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.
Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.
The goalposts, they keep on movin. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Aryth wrote: The goalposts, they keep on movin.
Not really. It was stated as part of FoxFour's reasoning in his second or third post - people are just pointing out that applying that reasoning consistently leads to certain consequences.
No it wasn't. You are trying to conflate static data with dynamic data. Then on top of that something that was a purposeful decision with one that wasn't. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?
Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Two step wrote:Querns wrote:Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why. NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money. I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in. The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.
So you are saying you have the ability to stop the farmers cold for a week at a time. As though that isn't lost ISK due to risk. You then pivot to the "think of the children" argument and how it won't hurt your profit.
I do agree that risk and reward should be balanced. However, I think the proper approach is to change wormhole mechanics more to introduce more risk. It doesn't seem as though anyone at CCP or in these threads is against changing mechanics. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Masaru Sora wrote:Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.
Wolfpacks guys Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Def Monk wrote:Masaru Sora wrote:Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then. They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P
You mean the ones you aren't organized with enough firepower to attack? Then yes, I suppose "can't" is the proper word. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Querns wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts. This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.
I was actually hoping the guy that claimed he was in CFC leadership didn't. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.
While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.
We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.
The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv
So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:Aryth wrote:rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.
While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.
We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.
The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv
So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you? Not sure what you mean by that, my organization PVE's about... once a month if that, generally we just don't, we are purely a PVP outfit. We simply don't want to get a HIC or hole rolling BS stuck on an EOL hole we know nothing about, so instead we go play something else until it pops and then we go roaming. Its a matter of time, we're all limited in our game play time, get about 3-4 hours a couple times a week, so we maximize our time, and do not specifically focus on EVE. We prefer EVE, but if there's a chance one of the 4 of us will get stuck in an EOL hole while trying to roll it, the night is shot waiting for them to get back, so we don't bother. Its not about risk, its about limited time.
Oh I follow your point. You just don't equate time loss to risk when it is. I understand why you don't like this for your edge case. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Two step wrote: I think that book you missed was "How to read (for dummies)".
My "personal isk faucet" is in no way under threat. As I said, most large groups will barely notice any differences.
The rest of your post is just a bunch of words that say nothing interesting. OFC one cannot say that a specific change will have exact effects, but we can, and will, discuss if a given change helps or hurts certain playstyles. In this case, it is quite clearly all about folks that would like less risk to their PVE in w-space. I think in general, PVE in C5/C6 w-space is already less risky than it should be, and this change reduces that risk further.
So after the "think of the children" we are down to Risk:Reward balance. If the API perfect intel doesn't exist what would you like to see as far as ingame mechanics to duplicate this? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Querns wrote:Andski wrote:wormhole stabilizers will solve this problem Ideally, this will be represented by two devices on either side of the wormhole, holding it open. One of the sides will have a ring on it, to indicate the polarity of the device.
Damn you. You stole that from me. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1534
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:oh, come on... you guys and your goat-Z wormhole stabilizer idea? Right now, in this thread??
Given the content of these threads can you imagine a better place for it? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 21:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Two step wrote:Aryth wrote:Two step wrote: I think that book you missed was "How to read (for dummies)".
My "personal isk faucet" is in no way under threat. As I said, most large groups will barely notice any differences.
The rest of your post is just a bunch of words that say nothing interesting. OFC one cannot say that a specific change will have exact effects, but we can, and will, discuss if a given change helps or hurts certain playstyles. In this case, it is quite clearly all about folks that would like less risk to their PVE in w-space. I think in general, PVE in C5/C6 w-space is already less risky than it should be, and this change reduces that risk further.
So after the "think of the children" we are down to Risk:Reward balance. If the API perfect intel doesn't exist what would you like to see as far as ingame mechanics to duplicate this? Hmm, might be fun trying to talk to the other goon troll I guess.... Firstly, I am not sure where you are seeing any change in my message. I have been pretty consistent. I am against this change because it makes it harder to kill people farming in high class wormholes. People farming in those holes are in general bad for w-space. They reduce profit for all, but mostly for lower class wormholes. They don't provide PVP content, just the rare gank. As for a solution, I would like to see the difficulty of C5/C6 capital escalations increased. It should take 8-10 actual people paying actual attention to make 600-800 mil off a set of capital escalations. The simplest way to do this would probably be to nerf dreads against sleepers, but there are other solutions that would work. If this was done, farming would require a larger time and manpower commitment, which would require a larger vulnerable presence in the hole. I guess what it comes down to for me is that you shouldn't be able to run C5/C6 capital escalations without having to really live in w-space. That means you should be vulnerable to the same invasions and whatnot as those of us that do put in the effort to make w-space our home.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am trolling you.
This seems an odd mechanic change though. This has nothing to do with the PVP change unless you factor in time to complete making them more vulnerable to PVP? I mean I am not against buffing PVE risk to make WH's more risky but it seems like much of the pushback on this change was because it was nerfing PVP. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 22:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
No, because we have the capability to form a rational argument. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 22:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Longinius Spear wrote:its sad that the counter to this change come from the established wormhole community. While the people for it, simply have ISK grinding alts seeded throughout w-space and who post with mains in null sec.
That is essentially the break down of the past 10 pages.
Not sure if CCP is even listening anymore but instead of following some 'vision' of wormhole space should be, they should support the established community who has put wormhole space on the map time and time again vs the people who simply consume it for ISK, bringing nothing.
Ok I laughed. "on the map" lololol Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 14:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Which is exactly why this is getting removed. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1542
|
Posted - 2014.05.12 23:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Why did you even bothered creating Wspace if you guys hate it so much.
When CCP creates the new region of space watch it end up how they wished wormholes had. Just imagine how redheaded you will feel then. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
|
|