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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
671
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 20:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
when is subcap 'blapping' getting fixed? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
533
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 20:03:00 -
[92] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:when is subcap 'blapping' getting fixed? It's hard to say, but at least it's an easy fix; just apply the same restriction on titan guns have to prevent "blapping" to dreads as well. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
167
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 20:16:00 -
[93] - Quote
As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4624
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 20:53:00 -
[94] - Quote
Fozzie, alongside other posters in this thread I have serious concerns about what signature radius, but they've already voiced them so I don't need to.
What I'm concerned with is that citadel missiles are still a completely broken and underpowered weapon system and even if you've significantly boosted the Phoenix's tank and possibly somewhat boosted its damage output, the Phoenix is still the least powerful and least desireable dreadnought, which gives it the least return for the considerable investment of ISK and training time required to skill into, purchase and equip a dreadnought. I cannot fly any dreadnoughts and am not planning to train to for them in the near future, but despite the fact that training into any race of dreadnought would represent an absolutely equal amount of ISK and time investment for me the two clear standouts are the Moros and the Revelation, and I feel that if all other things being equal there's very clear "right answers" to "which race of X ship class should I train?" something is very wrong with your balancing. Mane 614
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Dunkle Lars
Lemon Half Moon
53
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Posted - 2014.05.07 21:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
The problem is the missiles themselves, not the dreadnought, as far as I see it.
Wouldn't the solution be to remove the velocity factor from the equation on citadel sized missiles?
Any other dread will hit a stationary target, regardless of size ( even shuttles ) for near full damage. A citadel cruise/torp will hit a stationary shuttle for like 0.1 damage because of the sig radius factor. If people are stupid enough to be sitting at 0 m/s ( sub-cap ) shouldn't they deserve the same punishment any other dread can dish out?
Secondly, multiply the missiles velocity by 10 or something.. If a Phoenix and a Moros decide to start fighting each other at 50 km, the Moros will hit the Phoenix twice before the first salvo of missiles hit.. That way the Phoenix is always going to loose. Delayed damage is bad m'kay.. Also because missiles are expensive.. You cannot stop shooting before your target explode and that means at least 1 wasted flight of missiles.. ISK right out of the pilots pocket.. A problem other dreads don't have.
And as so many other have already mentioned, TP's don't work on a sieged dread/carrier because of e-war immunity so reduce the sig radius factor a little |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 21:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Alexander McKeon wrote:Edit: Can we please also get a look at missile HP? If phoenixes are going to become usable in fleets, you can be sure someone will remember how to setup firewalls. No other dread can have it's damage negated by a few well-placed battleships, that shouldn't be true for the phoenix either. This has to be done for missiles of all sizes, not just citadel missiles. Subcap missiles have 70 hp which is an absolute joke and can be popped by a frigate fitted with smartbombs. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1208
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 21:31:00 -
[97] - Quote
GMP has affected citadel missiles for ages, ever since it was applied to unguided missiles too. If you look carefully you can find a thread quote from Fozzie saying specifically that it wouldn't apply to citadel missiles, but this was omitted in the subsequent patch notes. I always wondered if it was accidental.
In general, the changes will make the Phoenix the undisputed small-gang capital killer. It will munch Naglfars. The price of this is the difficulty in blapping with it. This is the only really sensible direction in whih to take the Phoenix. The blap Phoenix isn't something that LS just discovered, it's an obvious consequence of the missile damage formula, and Fozzie himself alluded to it in a thread about the Phoenix last year. But with linked, bonused painters and the other support items, you can still start laying down crushing volleys. Actually, I haven't run the numbers yet but I suspect that the increase in raw cruise damage roughly makes up for the reduced precision...
Regarding the problems of damage application to linked capitals, the problem here isn't the missiles, it's the Evasive Manoeuvres link being massively overpowered. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
671
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 21:32:00 -
[98] - Quote
Dunkle Lars wrote:The problem is the missiles themselves, not the dreadnought, as far as I see it.
Wouldn't the solution be to remove the velocity factor from the equation on citadel sized missiles?
Any other dread will hit a stationary target, regardless of size ( even shuttles ) for near full damage. A citadel cruise/torp will hit a stationary shuttle for like 0.1 damage because of the sig radius factor. If people are stupid enough to be sitting at 0 m/s ( sub-cap ) shouldn't they deserve the same punishment any other dread can dish out?
Secondly, multiply the missiles velocity by 10 or something.. If a Phoenix and a Moros decide to start fighting each other at 50 km, the Moros will hit the Phoenix twice before the first salvo of missiles hit.. That way the Phoenix is always going to loose. Delayed damage is bad m'kay.. Also because missiles are expensive.. You cannot stop shooting before your target explode and that means at least 1 wasted flight of missiles.. ISK right out of the pilots pocket.. A problem other dreads don't have.
And as so many other have already mentioned, TP's don't work on a sieged dread/carrier because of e-war immunity so reduce the sig radius factor a little
yeah or remove the ewar immunity for TPs and tackle |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 21:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary. You can't target paint dreads or triaged carriers, and these changes make damage to subcaps worse across the board no matter how many TPs and webs you have.
Catherine Laartii wrote:Is this a joke or do you seriously not understand how explosion radius works? Unline turrets, the relative radius of a missile in relation to its target works AGAINST its maximum dps. The BS your spouting is in fact, BS because it means that the nerf to sig radius makes it HARDER to hit subcapital targets. I'm not sure if you understood his post correctly, because what he was saying was that this isn't actually a buff to application but a nerf.
With the current Phoenix, by stacking Rigors you can get your explosion radius down to 816 with Citadel Torpedoes. This is essentially what Lord's Servant does with his somewhat famous blap Phoenix, and it also means that if you have a paint and a web or two on a battleship you will hit it for full damage (ie. 136k something volley, which is pretty nuts). There's a couple of reasons for this that you need to understand to really understand what makes missiles, especially capital missiles, either good or bad:
1) It's easier to reduce the velocity of something than it is to increase its signature. In other words, velocity-reducing stuff is more effective than signature-increasing stuff as far as missiles are concerned. -- In the light of above, low Explosion Radius is generally more important than high Explosion Velocity by a large margin. This means that Rigor rigs are much better than Flares, and it also means that trading Explosion Radius to gain Explosion Velocity in the base stats isn't worth it, even if you gain percentually more than you lose (assuming the current ratio).
2) In the missile damage formula, the Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity are multiplied together. For example, imagine you're shooting a missile with 100 Explosion Radius and 50 Explosion Velocity at a target with a signature of 200 and speed of 100. (200/100)*(50/100) = 1, which means that you will hit him for full damage even though he "should be" speed tanking your missiles. A lot of people don't understand this properly.
Point 2 means that the best ways to hit something you "shouldn't be" able to hit are, from most effective to least effective, 90% webs, stacking rigors, regular webs, paints, using flare rigs. If you had to choose two, you would thus choose webs and Rigors: Rigors are the most effective way of rectifying your sigradius handicap, and webs are the most effective way of fixing the speed tanking issue.
These two points together mean that the changes to the missiles aren't actually buffing anything, they're an almost universal nerf to Phoenix when it's shooting at anything that isn't a supercapital or a structure. The shield resist thing and the ROF change are nice, though, but the application changes as currently proposed will do more harm than good. |
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
167
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 21:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary. That being said, I see no reason why the sig radius nerf in question was necessary, considering its shortcomings in relation to other weapon systems. If we're talking about worrying that it could apply damage to subcaps too well, that's a completely bogus concern since ALL the other dreadnaughts can do that with their guns already. And while we're on the topic of XL guns, EVERY capital-sized weapon system that is not a fighter drone or doomsday device has a sig radius of exactly 2000m.
There is NO reason to single out the phoenix specifically for a nerf this way, despite the buff. It is shoddy logic at best, and unnecessarily spiteful at worst. |
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Caleb Seremshur
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
245
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:01:00 -
[101] - Quote
Angry Mustache wrote:Hey fozzie, ran some EFT tests with the new numbers, and they still aren't very rosy.
After patch, a all LV5 character will have torps at 2250 explosion radius, 52.5 explosion velocity.
Against linked carriers moving at full speed, the new torps are still only able to apply 60% of their nominal damage, while certainly better than the 50% now, it's still pretty pathetic. The explosion radius change means against linked armor carriers (using an archon for example) it's not possible to even hit a carrier standing still for full damage, because the sig of the carrier is now below the sig for the torps.
So the situation arises that you can't hit a triage carrier for full damage because you can't paint them to boost their sig.
Crash booster? Thats like 600 less Er right there LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1208
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:08:00 -
[102] - Quote
Crash should be a counter to X-Instinct, really. The problem is the Evasive Manoeuvres link is far too powerful, as is the Ragnorak's sig bonus. Sig reduction bonuses of that magnitude break the balance between guns and missiles, because of the different damage application formulas. |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
378
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:10:00 -
[103] - Quote
Hey guys, we made some tweaks to the Phoenix, and during this process we resized our changes would mean the Phoenix can't hit a structure sitting in space for full damage, so we made the effective size of structures bigger. - CCP
CCP are unmatched in their ability to troll their user base, damn |
Marc Rova
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
This is a poor change. You actually make it harder to hit sieged dreads and triaged carriers, unless my math is wrong. Phoenixes already don't have a problem hitting caps with TPs on them. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
374
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:47:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Hey guys, we made some tweaks to the Phoenix, and during this process we resized our changes would mean the Phoenix can't hit a structure sitting in space for full damage, so we made the effective size of structures bigger. - CCP
CCP are unmatched in their ability to troll their user base, damn Good thing I have no phoenix chars.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
224
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 22:48:00 -
[106] - Quote
I'm not an expert at math but it definitely seems the new numbers are still very conservative. Please consider reducing the penalty on explosion sig radius to 10% for cruise and 25% for torps. It's a bit ridiculous to suggest capital torps shouldn't be able to hit for full damage, considering you can't TP a triage/sieged capital. Pretty sure capital turrets don't have this problem. X |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
190
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:11:00 -
[107] - Quote
Rowells wrote:What will the pheonix tank look like in comparison to the revealation now? better, worse, or about the same?
Uhm, slave set works on capitals? Yes!
Crystal set works on capitals? No!
What say you?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5864
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:22:00 -
[108] - Quote
Better at shooting structures. Worse at shooting everything else.
Change does not go far enough. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
167
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Hey guys, we made some tweaks to the Phoenix, and during this process we resized our changes would mean the Phoenix can't hit a structure sitting in space for full damage, so we made the effective size of structures bigger. - CCP
CCP are unmatched in their ability to troll their user base, damn This represents a laughable failing in critical thinking. The mere fact that they had to up the sig radius for structures to compensate means that it's the weapon's fault is sucks at hitting structures, not the structures themselves. I have no idea what the discussion that led to making that decision sounded like, and I'm not sure I want to... |
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
So compiling every post together would everyone agree that they should either look into a sig increase for all siege modules (siege/triage/bastion) which is more balanced in my opinion and I'll explain why I think so. Or reduce the sig radius moderately on the missiles themselves. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here, just a post compiling the two suggested changes. Personally I feel like whatever harmful effects they are trying to avoid by making the explosion radius smaller/better is not really going to be a problem with an "MWD" style bloom from a siege module class. Also I feel like this has no real negative effect for anything else as well. Throw it on SiSi and see if it's too strong and if it looks like citadel torps doing full damage to a capital in a sieged cycle of any kind is too strong. Take it off and let us know you think thats not a good idea. At that point I'll be glad I can fly the two other dreads and be on my way. :) |
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
225
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Rowells wrote:What will the pheonix tank look like in comparison to the revealation now? better, worse, or about the same? Uhm, slave set works on capitals? Yes! Crystal set works on capitals? No! What say you? Gotta agree with this. It might not be something you can get done for this expansion Foz, but either make slaves NOT work with caps, or make Crystals work with caps. Choose, sir! X |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
671
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Patri Andari wrote:Rowells wrote:What will the pheonix tank look like in comparison to the revealation now? better, worse, or about the same? Uhm, slave set works on capitals? Yes! Crystal set works on capitals? No! What say you? Gotta agree with this. It might not be something you can get done for this expansion Foz, but either make slaves NOT work with caps, or make Crystals work with caps. Choose, sir!
I'm voting for making all pirate implants not affect capitals. because it's silly. |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
63
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:50:00 -
[113] - Quote
ZecsMarquis wrote:So compiling every post together would everyone agree that they should either look into a sig increase for all siege modules (siege/triage/bastion) which is more balanced in my opinion and I'll explain why I think so. Or reduce the sig radius moderately on the missiles themselves. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here, just a post compiling the two suggested changes. Personally I feel like whatever harmful effects they are trying to avoid by making the explosion radius smaller/better is not really going to be a problem with an "MWD" style bloom from a siege module class. Also I feel like this has no real negative effect for anything else as well. Throw it on SiSi and see if it's too strong and if it looks like citadel torps doing full damage to a capital in a sieged cycle of any kind is too strong. Take it off and let us know you think thats not a good idea. At that point I'll be glad I can fly the two other dreads and be on my way. :) If they want to make the Phoenix only really hit capitals and not subcapitals that's fine by me, but I think it's completely silly to gimp the explosion radius on the missiles to avoid "turning it into some kind of subcap blapping monster" when the other dreads already are that.
I mean you could remove the explosion radius nerf entirely and it STILL wouldn't be as good at blapping subcapitals as the other dreads are (ie. it'd require support ships that web and paint the subcaps, and even with webs and paints it wouldn't hit anything smaller than a battlecruiser for good damage).
If anything, leave the explosion radius and velocity on the missiles completely alone, or buff the velocity a little but leave the radius alone. That way the Phoenix could fit the 3x Rigors it needs to apply its damage, and the shield resist bonus would mean that it doesn't lose a crippling amount of tank in the absence of Core Defense Field Extender rigs. Alternatively, add a mid slot module for missiles that's like a tracking computer.
Other dreads sacrifice some midslots for tracking computers to be able to blap subcaps, Phoenix has to sacrifice all of its rig slots and suffer a rather awful launcher CPU penalty with that (people generally seem to agree that Phoenix is quite CPU starved) to be able to blap subcaps and it's still not as good at it as gun dreads. |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
841
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 23:53:00 -
[114] - Quote
Do these citadel changes affect the pos modules as well? |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
63
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:02:00 -
[115] - Quote
Burneddi wrote:2) In the missile damage formula, the Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity are multiplied together. For example, imagine you're shooting a missile with 100 Explosion Radius and 50 Explosion Velocity at a target with a signature of 200 and speed of 100. (200/100)*(50/100) = 1, which means that you will hit him for full damage even though he "should be" speed tanking your missiles. A lot of people don't understand this properly. Also, something quite important that I forgot to mention here, whereas on moving targets very low Explosion Radius will "make up for" lacking Explosion Velocity, the inverse isn't always true. On stationary targets it doesn't matter how high your Explosion Velocity is, it will not matter at all in the equation.
This comes into play when shooting other caps. A triage Archon with links will have 1956m sig radius, and move at 0ms. Thus, the Explosion Velocity the missiles are going to gain will not help here at all, while the Explosion Radius they're going to lose (from 1500 with GMP V up to 2250 with GMP V) will matter quite a bit. After these changes, a Phoenix with no rigors will never deal full damage to a triaged Archon with links without using drugs. So while in the past you could speed tank about 10% of its damage by moving in a carrier, after these changes you can mitigate 13% of its damage by not doing anything, and your top speed in the Archon will still be higher than the Explosion Velocity of the missiles. |
Hybiki Terona
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:55:00 -
[116] - Quote
All these tears
Just gonna point out, very rarely dreads apply full damage to other capitals. Guns have an optimal range, the likelyhood of a moros applying full damage with antimatter (15k optimal) is low Guns also have tracking, if you think a turret dread will hit a carrier for full damage while it's moving at close range, you're wrong.
As proven recently, the phoenix has great potential to kill subcaps, including a subcap sitting and orbiting at 500, no other dread is able to do that, if you wanna hit a BC in a moros it needs to be double webbed and painted and be at ~15k, and you're sure as **** not going to do full damage to it.
Not that this tweak changes anything, you will still be mocked for using the phoenix. |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
Hybiki Terona wrote:All these tears
Just gonna point out, very rarely dreads apply full damage to other capitals. Guns have an optimal range, the likelyhood of a moros applying full damage with antimatter (15k optimal) is low Guns also have tracking, if you think a turret dread will hit a carrier for full damage while it's moving at close range, you're wrong.
As proven recently, the phoenix has great potential to kill subcaps, including a subcap sitting and orbiting at 500, no other dread is able to do that, if you wanna hit a BC in a moros it needs to be double webbed and painted and be at ~15k, and you're sure as **** not going to do full damage to it.
Not that this tweak changes anything, you will still be mocked for using the phoenix. That's sort of the point of missiles. Dank, reliable application at the cost of your damage being delayed, and for better or worse, transversal not helping or ruining you. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
671
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 01:12:00 -
[118] - Quote
Burneddi wrote:Hybiki Terona wrote:All these tears
Just gonna point out, very rarely dreads apply full damage to other capitals. Guns have an optimal range, the likelyhood of a moros applying full damage with antimatter (15k optimal) is low Guns also have tracking, if you think a turret dread will hit a carrier for full damage while it's moving at close range, you're wrong.
As proven recently, the phoenix has great potential to kill subcaps, including a subcap sitting and orbiting at 500, no other dread is able to do that, if you wanna hit a BC in a moros it needs to be double webbed and painted and be at ~15k, and you're sure as **** not going to do full damage to it.
Not that this tweak changes anything, you will still be mocked for using the phoenix. That's sort of the point of missiles. Dank, reliable application at the cost of your damage being delayed, and for better or worse, transversal not helping or ruining you.
missiles are supposed to do slightly reduced damage to same-size targets most of the time, I think. |
Caleb Seremshur
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
245
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 01:28:00 -
[119] - Quote
Salient points to remember are yes that missiles choose the worst of the two evaluations
also that Ev where considered is more greatly modified by reducing the target velocity.
Let's look at that above example with some more realistic figures: A cerberus with HAM vs a hawk cerb hams are 93.8er/152ev vs the hawks 41sr/336tv
the cerb only applies about 140 dps to this hawk (before resist), without a prop mod. Turn on the hawks AB and it does a pitiful 62 dps to our hawk before resists.
HAMs in this scenario suffer multiple problems first being Sr/Tr is 94/41 ie about 0.48, and Ev/Tv being 152/336 (or 152/824) giving us again about 0.45 (or about 0.18). Then you 0.48*0.45 or 0.48*0.18 and you get 0.22 or 0.08. A mere 22% or 8% of the HAM cerbs 600+ dps is being applied to the hawk.
Now throw a web on the hawk. Then apply a TP in a vacuum. Now apply them both. Look at what happens to the numbers. Now apply an improved crash booster. Now switch to RLML. Now switch to HML. All sorts of exciting things start popping up
LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Iam Widdershins
Tempest Legion
846
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 01:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
I'm gonna chime in on the side of most of the dissenting voices here.
Yes, this is overall a buff to the Phoenix. Yes, I'm glad to be seeing this happen, and universal damage is long overdue on this lame duck of dreadnoughts.
However, the tweaks to Citadel explosion velocity vs. explosion radius do seem marginally unfavorable: Skirmish links will provide an 11.4% reduction to damage taken by a sieged Moros, while a Ragnarok will provide closer to 15%. For the other three dreads fit with armor the situation is even a bit worse. Maxed out, a Ragnarok can get down to a 1205m sig radius, smaller than a microwarping battleship. Certainly futzing around with making your caps speed tank each other is a cool mechanic to leave open for the player base to experiment with, but allowing a dread that is sitting still to take less damage from Phoenixes only, just because you are buffing up your sig with Halos and links, is a bad precedent.
The way I see it, the quandary here is that in the struggle to keep Citadel missiles from 1-shotting subcaps, you're finding that capital ships here may indeed have sigs that are TOO SMALL for their damage and EHP. I urge you to consider the following:
* Leave the Citadel missile changes as they are. 2250m explosion radius for citadel torps is probably fine. * Increase all Dreadnought signature radius and sensor strength by 50%
and
* Increase all Carrier signature radius by 50% -OR- * Increase all Carrier signature radius by 25% and increase signature radius while in Triage by 20% (for a total of 50%)
The main difficulty here is clearly not with Dreadnoughts; while increasing sig radius the ship becomes easier to probe; increasing sensor strength to compensate on a dreadnought is unimportant because they can't do much of use when they are actually jammable. Carriers are a different problem; one must be willing to either make them a bit easier to probe, or risk making them nigh impossible to jam with ECM. Nonetheless, I believe these changes should solve the issue, allowing capital weapons and ships to exist on a more consummate scale with their power while providing only a minor side effect in making Carriers slightly easier to find with combat probes. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
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