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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
851
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Posted - 2014.05.15 12:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.
Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.
These numbers are for a Paladin in case anyone is confused
I use a Tachyon Beam setup because it makes more sense for how I play. If you like the close in fighting perhaps the Mega Pulse is better for you.
From these numbers the advantage Mega Pulse lasers get is using Conflagration within 33 km with an extra 188 DPS. So for those that use it close up Mega Pulse would make sense. This is if you don't use 3 heat sinks instead of 4 to buff up your close in tank. If you do that you only get an extra 133 DPS.
For those using Mega Pulse lasers at range with Scorch you lose DPS. Even using a MJD to keep range I'm shooting at rats within 70 km most of the time. If I was using Scorch I would lose 163 DPS.
Here are the DPS numbers. All setups are 4 IN heat sinks, 1 T2 Energy Burst Aerator rig and 3 T2 TC with optimal range scrips. Basicly max DPS + max range
Mega Pulse Conflagration 1228 DPS @ 33 + 21 Scorch 877 DPS @ 99 + 21 IN Radio 458 DPS @ 106 + 21
Tachyon Beam IN MF 1040 DPS @ 73 + 51 IN Gamma 953 DPS @ 91 + 51 IN Xray 867 DPS @ 109 + 51
Edit: Replacing the 4th IN Heat Sink with T2 will reduce these numbers by 3-8 DPS. Something to think about if you're worried about being ganked... Is 8 DPS worth 100 mil ISK?
Edit 2.. I need coffee... |
Darvanile
General Astrodynamics
14
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Posted - 2014.05.15 12:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons. No, it's not debatable. better use of a MJD more range better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank immune to ewar cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room more tractor range Just to counter some of your points better use of a MJD Of course the Paladin gets better use of a MJD... The Nightmare doesn't need one since it doesn't perform it's best at 100km. The NM will get better use of an AB. more range Again the NM is for closer ranges than the Paladin better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank Less tank slots I can't argue with but I disagree with the "better tank". The Paladin can have a better tank than the NM. A properly fit mission Paladin doesn't have a better tank since it's meant for range. My Paladin only has a LAR, EANM and DC. Also the Nightmare can warp away if you're being overwhelmed. With those "Oh crap" moments in a Paladin you have to disengage Bastion and hope to god your complete lack of a tank in the time it takes you to align and warp works. Been there, done that and made it out in hull. Of course both have more than adequate tank and the only time you would have an issue is pilot error. immune to ewar I've only had one mission where EWAR was an issue in Amarr space. I can't think of the name but it was heavy TD. With other missions it was just simply take out the EWAR ships before they moved in range. Now if the Nightmare isn't properly fit or the pilot doesn't have sufficient skills to make the DPS low this can be an issue. cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room Can't argue with those since shield modules can be expensive. I will say I've never lost a Nightmare in highsec but that's because I'm careful. more tractor range I stay at 70 to 100km out in my Paladin so I only use the tractor beam to scoop the mission item. If you use it to loot this is a good thing. I won't argue that the Paladin puts out more applied DPS than the NM since you can blast things at range. This translates to more ISK per hour. You have to remember not everyone cares about always getting max ISK per hour. I for one plan to try a in your face Mega Pulse NM once the changes happen. With the AB bonus I bet it would be fun.
It honestly seems like your letting your love for the nightmare get the best of you here. Tracking for a paladin in missions should honestly never be an issue, this is easily fixed by tracking comps. The paladin is incredibly hard to not make cap stable for missions as well. But the biggest point of all here is bastion mode. With the paladin, there is never going to be an oh **** moment. The insane amount of rep power this ship produces is off the charts. This is a ship capable of soloing c5 sites. Hitting ranges of 120km with scorch, and near 40 with conflag. The NM isn't even in the same ball park as the paladin, or any marauder for that matter. The paladin is also a much longer skill train though, so realistically this fits. |
Treacle Fox
SergalJerk Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 09:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Does anyone have an estimation of how fast a nightmare with a gist-x 100mn afterburner will go with max skills after the changes happen? |
Gregor Parud
495
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Posted - 2014.05.16 09:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Treacle Fox wrote:Does anyone have an estimation of how fast a nightmare with a gist-x 100mn afterburner will go with max skills after the changes happen?
867m/s not counting any nanofibers, rigs or implants. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
853
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Posted - 2014.05.16 11:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Darvanile wrote:IIshira wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons. No, it's not debatable. better use of a MJD more range better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank immune to ewar cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room more tractor range Just to counter some of your points better use of a MJD Of course the Paladin gets better use of a MJD... The Nightmare doesn't need one since it doesn't perform it's best at 100km. The NM will get better use of an AB. more range Again the NM is for closer ranges than the Paladin better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank Less tank slots I can't argue with but I disagree with the "better tank". The Paladin can have a better tank than the NM. A properly fit mission Paladin doesn't have a better tank since it's meant for range. My Paladin only has a LAR, EANM and DC. Also the Nightmare can warp away if you're being overwhelmed. With those "Oh crap" moments in a Paladin you have to disengage Bastion and hope to god your complete lack of a tank in the time it takes you to align and warp works. Been there, done that and made it out in hull. Of course both have more than adequate tank and the only time you would have an issue is pilot error. immune to ewar I've only had one mission where EWAR was an issue in Amarr space. I can't think of the name but it was heavy TD. With other missions it was just simply take out the EWAR ships before they moved in range. Now if the Nightmare isn't properly fit or the pilot doesn't have sufficient skills to make the DPS low this can be an issue. cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room Can't argue with those since shield modules can be expensive. I will say I've never lost a Nightmare in highsec but that's because I'm careful. more tractor range I stay at 70 to 100km out in my Paladin so I only use the tractor beam to scoop the mission item. If you use it to loot this is a good thing. I won't argue that the Paladin puts out more applied DPS than the NM since you can blast things at range. This translates to more ISK per hour. You have to remember not everyone cares about always getting max ISK per hour. I for one plan to try a in your face Mega Pulse NM once the changes happen. With the AB bonus I bet it would be fun. It honestly seems like your letting your love for the nightmare get the best of you here. Tracking for a paladin in missions should honestly never be an issue, this is easily fixed by tracking comps. The paladin is incredibly hard to not make cap stable for missions as well. But the biggest point of all here is bastion mode. With the paladin, there is never going to be an oh **** moment. The insane amount of rep power this ship produces is off the charts. This is a ship capable of soloing c5 sites. Hitting ranges of 120km with scorch, and near 40 with conflag. The NM isn't even in the same ball park as the paladin, or any marauder for that matter. The paladin is also a much longer skill train though, so realistically this fits.
Did you read the part where I said the Paladin can have a better tank but if it's fitted to efficiently run missions it doesn't have a better tank? Yes you can probably fit a Paladin to be able to solo tank the entire Goonswarm capital fleet. If you're using a cap stable fit capable of taking a C5 wormhole I'm happy for you but you're losing DPS. When I was comparing the two I was using a mission fit for max DPS and range.
Also did you read the part where I said the Paladin puts out more applied DPS? I won't argue the Paladin is a superior mission ship for grinding through missions. My point was the Nightmare is still a decent choice if fitted properly.
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Darvanile
General Astrodynamics
14
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
I did not misread or not read what you said, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply otherwise. Yes, the nightmare is a fine ship for missions/incursions. However, properly fit for missions or not, the paladin still out tanks the nightmare. With bastion and Marauders 5 , hell even 4, your looking at 145% bonus to repping power. 1 rep, 2 eanms,1 bastion module, 4 heatsinks, its a very simple equation that the nightmare can never and will never match. I suppose you could go with a 5th heatsink... but the difference in dps is laughable. I am not shooting the nightmare as a pve vessel down in the least. It is still very high on the list of mission runners and a fantastic ship. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
853
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 14:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yeah I was agreeing with you that the Paladin was superior for getting DPS on target and completing missions. Me selling my Nightmare because I didn't use it anymore would attest to that.
It just doesn't seem like the tank on the Paladin is superior. I've miscalculated a jump, took full room aggro and my armor was slowly going down even in Bastion mode. I had to disengage Bastion, wait for the cycle to end and warp out. What's worse is while Bastion is disengaged and I'm aligning the repper was doing practically nothing.
My old Nightmare could hold full room aggro at point blank range long as I have cap charges for the cap booster. That's with 2 tracking computers fitted in the mids.
On my Paladin I have 1 DC, and a EANM for tank. DPS is 4 heat sinks and a T2 ROF rig. A 5th heat sink would be worthless but the ROF rig actually helps. Damage projection by 3 tracking computers.
Yes I could make a cap stable setup that would permatank anything at the cost of damage projection but why? Unless I mess up I rarely cycle the repper more than three times. Many missions don't even get through my shields. If I DC it's going to die either way since all modules turn off and it stays there.
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Gregor Parud
495
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
Being able to tank silly amounts is not a requirement for running lvl 4 efficiently so any anecdotal "evidence" is pretty much meaningless. a Pally can tank some 900 Omni with a DC/EANM and a decent repper, if that's not enough for a lvl 4 then don't blame the ship.
Then onto the next bit, the pally is already inching ahead in regards to turret stats (range is obvious, tracking less so but you can fit a bunch of tracking comps kinda making up for it) but the SECOND the Nightmare gets TDed by even just one NPC it's completely and utterly blown out of the water by the Pally, which is immune to TDing, making it a non-contest.
End of story, case closed, why are we still arguing over this.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
15535
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Posted - 2014.05.16 17:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nightmare looks over 9000 more awesomer than the Paladin.
The AB bonus is actually super useful for countering tracking disruption. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
726
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Posted - 2014.05.16 17:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
As I figure it... the Nightmare is for incursioning, the Paladin is for missioning, neither one is for PvP
It will stay this way post patch |
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Gregor Parud
509
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Posted - 2014.05.16 18:24:00 -
[41] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Nightmare looks over 9000 more awesomer than the Paladin.
The AB bonus is actually super useful for countering tracking disruption.
Helpful, sure. but I'd rather not have to worry about TD at all.
P.s. We need a use for the "tier 3" BS in T2 form. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
210
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Posted - 2014.05.19 20:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Nightmare looks over 9000 more awesomer than the Paladin.
The AB bonus is actually inferior to bastion for countering tracking disruption.
FYP
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
859
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Posted - 2014.05.20 10:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Malcanis wrote:Nightmare looks over 9000 more awesomer than the Paladin.
The AB bonus is actually super useful for countering tracking disruption. Helpful, sure. but I'd rather not have to worry about TD at all Sometimes I'm just lazy and want to fire cruise missiles from my easy mode CNR just to grind ISK but other times I want to actually have to think while playing the game. Even if it's only just a little thinking that doesn't hurt my brain too much lol.
Even without a prop mod TD is only an issue on one mission. The Nightmare will wipe the field of any TD ships long before they're able to cause an issue. This of course is if you're not failfit and have sufficient skills.
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Ruvin
168
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Posted - 2014.05.20 16:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Regarding tanking , moving at 800 ms reduce lots of dmg . Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
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