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Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
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Posted - 2014.05.13 20:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Who would risk a billion+ ISK ship in a belt / anomaly with no ability to warp or jump away with the distinct possibility of a fast ship bringing a cyno onto you?
Simple (probably OP in some situation however) fix
Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core
How would this break non-mining situations? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5408
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 20:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know there is a cheap (ish) deplopyable that can do this already... right?
Better idea... bring the Rorqual in-line with carrier stats and abilities ... with the industrial core giving the same bonuses as Triage mode.
With a small squad of combat-ready Procurers or Skiffs it can hold its own against a small gang of dedicated combat ships. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
I actually agree that triage or similar would be an improvement, but you also don't see triage carriers in belts either.
My hope is that CCP will give sufficient enticement for people to risk one in belts etc, then they can take mining links out of POSes (and on-grid if/when general links get changed to on-grid) |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
595
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
just kill the damn indy core already, that is 90% of the problem. |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Another idea:
Increase size of ore hold to be similar to JF ( In total with fleet hanger and cargo etc ) When deployed, miners on grid (and in fleet) drop directly into rorqual, not their host ship
I'm don't really care what is changed, just so long as it starts to be rational to put a rorq in a belt |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
228
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Posted - 2014.05.13 23:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver.
Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship.
Changed Role * Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard). * It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change. * Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider; - It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting. - It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk. - It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply. * Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time.
Protection Even with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection. * While in Excavation Mode (you like that? ) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode. * Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors.
So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my X |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
8
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Posted - 2014.05.14 00:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
I actually built a Rorqual in our WH to compress ore for hauling to market.......about 3 months before I saw the post about compression arrays.
Yes I am sad.
However..... I don't think that there is any possible buff to it that would EVER encourage me to take it out of the POS, that is not so ridiculously OP in low/null that said buff would ever make it in to game.
Such as the mini force field idea, or carrier level defenses.
If mining boosts needed to be on grid, for me at least, the farthest I would go is an Orca, and that is not likely.
The only buff that would ever make me take it in to a wh belt is if it gave both warp scram and interdiction immunity to the entire fleet on grid. Oh and while I'm dreaming, some massive never going to happen buff to shields/resists/align time...... You get the idea.
And that's not going to happen, even if they made it so said buff only affected industrial ships. (barges/exhumers/haulers)
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2868
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Posted - 2014.05.14 02:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
People regularly take much bigger risks than just fielding a Rorqual in a belt for small rewards.
If you do not believe me, buy 80 million units of Trit in a trade hub (only fits in a freighter), and post a collateralized courier contract to move it and 2 PLEX with a 10b collateral and a 200m payout to haul it to a different hub.
That's a risk of 10.4b (10b for the collateral, 0.4b for the freighter loss after insurance) that involves flying a ship that will show PLEX on a cargo scan through Uedama and Niarja. And people do these contracts for 200m.
If people take risks like that, they will risk a Rorqual (1.4b after insurance) in a belt if there are relevant rewards.
As for what sensible rewards might be - I think the ability to meaningfully mine itself (120-200% of Hulk yield), alongside on-site compression, a compressed ore special hold, and Orca-calibre boosts would do the trick. Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3613
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 19:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Copy-and-pasting into yet another Rorqual thread.
Last thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4585679#post4585679
With these changes, the Rorqual stands a chance to escape: * EWAR immunity. You need a HIC or a bubble to prevent it from jumping out. [Blops-proof] * At least Orca-level mining link bonus with the Industrial Core inactive. [Not self-pointed.]
Change Rorqual from: 5% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode to 3% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level [Orca-class bonus.] 2% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode
It is also small buff from 25% to 26.5% for the sake of whole number bonuses.
* 50% reduction in Cynosural Field Generator duration. [The point of a cavalry is to extract.]
Give the Rorqual the ability to stand its ground: * 7.5% bonus to fleet members' maximum structure hitpoints per level of Capital Industrial Ships. * 100% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level of Capital Industrial Ships. * 10% bonus to drone tracking per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG] * 20% bonus to drone MWD velocity per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG] * Increase the size of the drone bay. It needs to hold more drones (even with the HP bonus), and a variety of drones.
Give the Rorqual a reasonable chance of survival with the Industrial Core active: * 75% bonus to hull resists. [My math may be wrong, but I was aiming for 90% with a DCU II.] * 30% bonus to shield resists. * 100% bonus to local shield boosting amount. * 50% reduction to local shield booster capacitor use. * Industrial Core cycle time reduced to one minute. * Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination. and * 56% reprocessing facilities [2% better than an Intensive Reprocessing Array.]
Other: * Additional high-slots: 3 mining links + capital tractor beam + capital shield transporter + cyno + utility. * Expanded corporate hangar. * Expanded ship hangar, or re-purposed for general ships. * Expanded ore hangar.
Just throwing these out there: * New module: Industrial Bridge Generator I. Can bridge: Industrial, Mining Frigate, Mining Barge, Exhumer, Transport, Freighter. * Expanded fuel bay. [For bridging.] The Rorqual is a mining fleet vessel, so it should be able to move mining fleets around. |
HiddenPorpoise
Under Dark
208
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 20:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zalbrak wrote:Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped.
No. |
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Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
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Posted - 2014.05.15 20:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Zalbrak wrote:Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped. No.
How is that different from drop mobile cyno inhibitor out of carrier fleet bay?
If necessary tweak the heavy water usage to have a similar cost per hour |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
517
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 20:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Galphii wrote:The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver. Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship. Changed Role* Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard). * It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change. * Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider; - It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting. - It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk. - It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply. * Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time. ProtectionEven with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection. * While in Excavation Mode (you like that? ) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode. * Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors. So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my
I actually like this, make the rorq a cap miner. Lots of people want one, you could even just give it cap strip miner that have more yield then standard strips if need be. It would make it more useable. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
186
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 20:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Galphii wrote:The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver. Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship. Changed Role* Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard). * It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change. * Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider; - It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting. - It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk. - It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply. * Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time. ProtectionEven with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection. * While in Excavation Mode (you like that? ) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode. * Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors. So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my I actually like this, make the rorq a cap miner. Lots of people want one, you could even just give it cap strip miner that have more yield then standard strips if need be. It would make it more useable. Tentatively, I would be in favor of this. It is, after all, a capital industrial and since the Orca already has the huge cargo capacity this would be an interesting change. |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 22:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
The way I see it, there's already an industrial command ship (Orca) which is cheaper to put on grid (assuming they get around to doing on-grid boosting at some point) so there's no point having a second, slightly better bonused ship that people would be reluctant to put in a belt. Giving the rorqual even bigger command bonuses could be troublesome as it gets multiplied by the number of miners receiving that bonus - converting it into a capital mining ship keeps those bonuses in check (self only) and if the risk vs reward is good enough, people will fly it in belts and good times will be had by all (happy miners getting lots of yield and a big shiny endgame ship, hotdroppers have a big juicy target to hunt away from towers)
Oh and my numbers are very arbitrary. Math people would have to go over it to ensure its as balanced as it can be in that situation. X |
Axe Coldon
Coldon Enterprises Axion Bionics
28
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 01:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zalbrak wrote:Who would risk a billion+ ISK ship in a belt / anomaly with no ability to warp or jump away with the distinct possibility of a fast ship bringing a cyno onto you?
Simple (probably OP in some situation however) fix
Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core
How would this break non-mining situations?
Any attempt to put rorquals in the belts stationary won't work. We would be fooling ourselves if we think we wouldn't get hot dropped. Its an expensive ship About 2x a carrier. And look to the lengths people go to to kill carrier.
It's just too expensive to risk.
Any attempt to make it viable stationary in a belt would make it over powered.
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Drone 16
Law Dogz
240
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Posted - 2014.05.16 01:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Make the Rorqual similar to a one of the new deployables in that it takes some, time to activate the industrial core but once activated the Rorqual gets a (duration tbd) reinforcement timer if a certain amount of damage is done to it. The ship is stuck in the belt and powerless but invulnerable for a period of time. Going into reinforced would begin consuming jump fuel making it less and less likely that the Rorqual could cyno out even if it's shields are repaired.
This would give attackers a good shot at killing a Rorqual that isn't adequatelyl supported but at the same time it would give the defenders a chance to save their asset.
The end result would be good fights regardless. It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits |
Starfall Achura
Angels of Achura
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 05:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Drone 16 wrote:Make the Rorqual similar to a one of the new deployables in that it takes some, time to activate the industrial core but once activated the Rorqual gets a (duration tbd) reinforcement timer if a certain amount of damage is done to it. The ship is stuck in the belt and powerless but invulnerable for a period of time. Going into reinforced would begin consuming jump fuel making it less and less likely that the Rorqual could cyno out even if it's shields are repaired.
This would give attackers a good shot at killing a Rorqual that isn't adequatelyl supported but at the same time it would give the defenders a chance to save their asset.
The end result would be good fights regardless.
An interesting idea, it's certainly different I wonder if CCP would consider this. Seems like another to both revive a dying ship and promote good fights |
HiddenPorpoise
Under Dark
208
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Posted - 2014.05.16 06:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zalbrak wrote:HiddenPorpoise wrote:Zalbrak wrote:Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped. No. How is that different from drop mobile cyno inhibitor out of carrier fleet bay? If necessary tweak the heavy water usage to have a similar cost per hour A cyno jam takes 2 minutes to light and if a counter drop is coming it's happening in those 2 minutes. |
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Psychopathic Posse
29
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Posted - 2014.05.16 07:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Crazy idea, Make the Rorq not appear on dscan |
Zol Interbottom
Theft and Taxes
313
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Posted - 2014.05.16 07:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Only if it has the core on, I can imagine the horror of battle rorqual fleets.
Especially if they were lying in wait. "If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba |
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Sigras
Conglomo
765
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Posted - 2014.05.16 08:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
I actually think the mining of the rorqual should be limited to the yield of the hulk for two reasons:
1. no bonus short of something ridiculous would be enough incentive to take one of these things out over a hulk... seriously, think about the ROI.. even if you give it double the hulk bonus of an absolutely perfect hulk, it would take over 70 hours of mining prime arkonor to make that difference up. 2. There are areas of space where it is perfectly safe to deploy a rorqual in a belt like deep deklein in a cyno jammed system. Areas like these would completely unbalance the "super hulk" yield.
Instead I think the bonuses and upgrades should be focused on protection and security. Here are my thoughts on how I would change the rorqual.
Rorqual: Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level): 20% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage 5% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core 5% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core 5% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness 50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range 4% bonus to all shield resistances - new
Role bonus: Can fit Clone Vat Bay Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously 900% bonus to Survey Scanner range 200% bonus to Cargo Scanners range Can fit Industrial Core 300% bonus to mining laser yield - new (same yield as skiff)
Slot layout: 8H(+2), 7M, 3L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 305,000 PWG, 1050(+130) CPU
But the real changes come in making the industrial core more like the triage module.
Industrial Core: - new bonuses on top of what it already does. 20% targeting range bonus +5 max locked targets 100% shield boost bonus 50% reduction in shield booster duration 100% shield transporter bonus 50% reduction in shield transporter duration 900% scan resolution bonus 25% bonus to mining laser yield - (same yield as hulk) 900% bonus to mining laser range Immune to Ewar
Note that the new industrial core does not prevent you from launching drones, does not give you a bonus to cap transfer, and still takes heavy water to run.
This would allow the rorqual to act as a triage unit to be able to stand up to small/medium sized gangs alone, and will allow users to not "lose a hulk" in favor of a boosting ship. Of course you would still need hot drop protection, but I feel that this is a reasonable upgrade package which would boost the incentive to take the rorqual into a belt. |
Jasmine Assasin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
165
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 10:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Make it a "self propelled" small POS-a-like, except that you couldn't anchor any extras with it. It then remains mostly as is but obviously gets the mineral compression buff that has already been mentioned.
Once reffed it would work exactly like a POS, using stront, waiting on timers, etc.
The only difference is, this "POS" can be docked and undocked and has a jump drive. No mining could be done from within the force fields but friendlies could take cover if unwanted guest decided to show up.
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 11:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I actually think the mining of the rorqual should be limited to the yield of the hulk If a ship 10 times the cost of a hulk doesn't bring in more than a hulk, it's not going to get used. Miners will just use hulks which warp out faster these days than risk a capital ship with few extra benefits and a whole lot more risk.
Cyno jammed systems mean nothing. Blops fleets are very good at party crashing miners, and I've been in system when a rorqual was destroyed by a blops fleet (it got out of its pos shield for some reason).
So big defences are definitely important, but the yield has got to be better or its simply not worth the risk. X |
Sigras
Conglomo
765
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 18:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Sigras wrote:I actually think the mining of the rorqual should be limited to the yield of the hulk If a ship 10 times the cost of a hulk doesn't bring in more than a hulk, it's not going to get used. Miners will just use hulks which warp out faster these days than risk a capital ship with few extra benefits and a whole lot more risk. Cyno jammed systems mean nothing. Blops fleets are very good at party crashing miners, and I've been in system when a rorqual was destroyed by a blops fleet (it got out of its pos shield for some reason). So big defences are definitely important, but the yield has got to be better or its simply not worth the risk. Really? so how much extra yield would be worth a ship 11 times the cost? 2x? 3x?
Nobody should be buying this thing over a hulk for its mining yield, they should buy it for the safety and security that it brings to your mining gang. We're not out to make a better mining ship; we dont need one. What we need is a ship to provide protection for a mining fleet without losing yield. |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Zalbrak wrote:HiddenPorpoise wrote:Zalbrak wrote:Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped. No. How is that different from drop mobile cyno inhibitor out of carrier fleet bay? If necessary tweak the heavy water usage to have a similar cost per hour A cyno jam takes 2 minutes to light and if a counter drop is coming it's happening in those 2 minutes.
Fair point.
Maybe a more reasonable idea is to have the indy core cycle faster, e.g. 1min to be the same as Bastion.
*edit: and not have any massive defensive thing attached to the core |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
187
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 20:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
This might have been said, but I will admit I'm feeling too lazy to check.
-Mining sentries/"fighters" Somehow make them usable by the Rorqual and not carriers, or usable by carriers at a disadvantage making it less attractive. Too large to fit in other ships, but with a large ore haul making it worthwhile. If they're of the sentry type they would need to be placed close to the asteroid, requiring the Rorqual pilot to be actively mining as well as tractoring and managing bays and such
Thoughts? |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 20:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tweak the Rorqual on just one aspect, and I believe it will gain the confidence to appear in belts.
Make it impossible to point, or otherwise lock down, even in compression mode deployment.
This would give it one saving grace, which could make all the difference. It would, with obvious proper preparation, always be able to jump away from a fight.
There is no fear of it being held down and beaten to death, if it is impossible to hold down.
Call it the Baba Yaga role bonus, where the little hut magically vanishes when it chooses to. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
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