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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Kelsi Monroe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.05.18 13:33:00 -
[721] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Kelsi Monroe wrote:Arkon Olacar wrote:It's like Fozzie has never actually played Eve -+Doing logistics for a big corp/alliance? Pretty sure. Only someone with a complete ignorace of how boring logistics can be would propose this changes. and yet freighter pilots have been proposing it for years.
Freighter pilots can-¦t write devlogs.
Also this isn-¦t going to hit only freighter pilots. Industrial changes are risky, these changes are just dumb. And there are many CiFi games coming out in the last quarter of the year that doesn-¦t involve hauling s*** in the most boring mechanic posible while risking 60Gé¼ (+cargo) in virtual pixels. |
Batolemaeus
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
116
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Posted - 2014.05.18 13:41:00 -
[722] - Quote
Quote: Seagull: Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. They are people who run mad spreadsheets to organize production lines for war efforts, they are people who manage roles and membership of big corporations and alliances, they build tools to do different tasks. And we kind of have a history of treating these people likeGǪ****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work.
Seagull: The approach that I want to take, is that if we look at these people and design exciting things for them, and make their lives less like hell doing the things they want to do anyway, that will create all kinds of interesting dynamics in EVE Online as a world.
CSM Winter 2012 Summit Minutes |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research Special Circumstances Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:53:00 -
[723] - Quote
Kelsi Monroe wrote:Also this isn-¦t going to hit only freighter pilots. Industrial changes are risky, these changes are just dumb. And there are many CiFi games coming out in the last quarter of the year that doesn-¦t involve hauling s*** in the most boring mechanic posible while risking 60Gé¼ (+cargo) in virtual pixels. Then don't haul them. If no one will be willing to haul them, your alliance will think about building them on spot, at last. Thats your readiness to spend hours of your life on this boring stuff that makes it far more profitable to supply all corporation/alliance's needs from jita for your CEOs, and not to invest something in local infrastracture and risk those investments while deciding to participate in a war. That makes things rather boring than they could be down here.
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Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Brothers of Tangra
23
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Posted - 2014.05.18 13:57:00 -
[724] - Quote
CCP FOZZIE
Are you going to rebalance the Fuel usage of the jf's now that they all have very similar cargo?
The extra Fuel expense of the Rhea was justified by it being able to carry an extra battle ship compared to the other races, now that's no longer the case, the extra fuel expense isn't justified, and needs rebalancing too.
Also, Why do 3 races of JF get a 4% boost to max cargo while the rhea gets a 1.2% boost? Its Racism against Caldari logistics
If the cargo is going to be affected by 2.8% compaired to the others. The fuel usage should be reduced by 2.8% too |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:04:00 -
[725] - Quote
THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA !
(Copy-paste from an earlier post in the thread, as my views might not have been too obvious in my previous ramblings.)
The only possible justification for this idea is if CCP actually wants less industry in the game, not more. If the devs believe reducing mobility of bulky items like uncompressed ore will make people spread out more, while making logistics more risky as well (due to ease of suicide ganking), then all I can do is :faceplam:
Also, I never asked for this. Does this mean my freighter won't change? (Yeah, yeah...) Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
410
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:05:00 -
[726] - Quote
Well these changes are part of the multiple different changes required to create local industry in 0.0. All these changes are changing the game massively and everybody will be affected.
Ignorant people claiming it was JF pilots asking for rigs are just being windup merchants and deserve a contempt filled stare and confirmation that they are very stupid, this is really pushing it to make industry local, which is what the big 0.0 alliances wanted, nothing to do with people wanting and not getting improved EHP for their freighters and Jump Freighters.
Its a bad change in terms of JF's and freighters, but for the goal that CCP is aiming at local industry in 0.0 it hits the spot, the problem is that for me is another kick in the nuts. Don't be a turd and follow the herd Instead be a Hero at Hub Zero |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21913
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:14:00 -
[727] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Ignorant people claiming it was JF pilots asking for rigs are just GǪstating facts, and are being met with abuse now as then when pointing out the obvious consequences.
Quote:this is really pushing it to make industry local, which is what the big 0.0 alliances wanted, nothing to do with people wanting and not getting improved EHP for their freighters and Jump Freighters. The big nullsec alliances weren't particularly fussed about industry being local GÇö they just wanted null industry to not be a thoroughly braindead proposition. The Crius changes will address that to some extent, but the main problem is that null industry can't be local. It relies on materials that can't be had locally, but which have to be imported from all over the place (via higsec).
This change makes such imports more annoying and will, if anything, concentrate industry more around the central trading hubs than before. Granted, in many cases it's thoroughly inefficient to import the materials rather than the final product regardless, so the effect will be fairly minor. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
517
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:15:00 -
[728] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Its a bad change in terms of JF's and freighters, but for the goal that CCP is aiming at local industry in 0.0 it hits the spot, the problem is that for me is another kick in the nuts.
There has to and there are other way to improve and enable industry and self-sustainability in 00 sec. Ways that require a bit more thinking on CCP's and the player side, but that is too much to ask apparently. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:19:00 -
[729] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:There has to and there are other way to improve and enable industry and self-sustainability in 00 sec. Ways that require a bit more thinking on CCP's and the player side, but that is too much to ask apparently. Will be interesting to see if Mittens will ask his fellow Goons to venture forth and mine Veldspar in 0.0 for their supercap production, or if they still expect to import compressed ore from HiSec... Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:21:00 -
[730] - Quote
Tippia wrote: The guy who wants a balance between cargo and agility and tank will end up with something that is mediocre in all three and which does not stack up to the old ships' capabilities because the overall baseline had to come down to compensate for those extremist fits.
That is not given, numbers can be tweaked and extremes accepted (like the new +20% cargo freighters).
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Kelsi Monroe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:29:00 -
[731] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Kelsi Monroe wrote:Also this isn-¦t going to hit only freighter pilots. Industrial changes are risky, these changes are just dumb. And there are many CiFi games coming out in the last quarter of the year that doesn-¦t involve hauling s*** in the most boring mechanic posible while risking 60Gé¼ (+cargo) in virtual pixels. Then don't haul them. If no one will be willing to haul them, your alliance will think about building them on spot, at last. Thats your readiness to spend hours of your life on this boring stuff that makes it far more profitable to supply all corporation/alliance's needs from jita for your CEOs, and not to invest something in local infrastracture and risk those investments while deciding to participate in a war. That makes things rather boring than they could be down here.
Most of the items that players use are TII, in order to build TII you need material of all across the galaxy/server, are these materials going move by themselves to our local infrastructure?
I think giving a boost lo local production is a great idea, f***** freighter/JF pilots in the process isn-¦t. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research Special Circumstances Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:35:00 -
[732] - Quote
Kelsi Monroe wrote: Most of the items that players use are TII, in order to build TII you need material of all across the galaxy/server, are these materials going move by themselves to our local infrastructure?
Lets imagine for a second that you don't need to haul anything but those special material and components. No hulls, ammo, or minerals, available in your local space - nothing. Only those selected items you are absolutely need to import and can't gather them at home. Woulnd't it become even less of a hassle this way then it is now for logistics guys? |
Sorania Whiting
Souls of Steel SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:46:00 -
[733] - Quote
Ty for this Changes
https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx https://secure.eveonline.com/CancelSubscription.aspx
makes it so much easyer to klick this link |
Sweet Times
Riptide Riot
4
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:46:00 -
[734] - Quote
Lets just all quit the game and let the ccp devs play the game on their own the can nerf the crap out of then all they like and nobody will care |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
605
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:48:00 -
[735] - Quote
I don't suppose you want to give your stuff away? If I'm wrong, just contract all to me, thanks! (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Kelsi Monroe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:53:00 -
[736] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Kelsi Monroe wrote: Most of the items that players use are TII, in order to build TII you need material of all across the galaxy/server, are these materials going move by themselves to our local infrastructure?
Lets imagine for a second that you don't need to haul anything but those special material and components. No hulls, ammo, or minerals, available in your local space - nothing. Only those selected items you are absolutely need to import and can't gather them at home. Woulnd't it become even less of a hassle this way then it is now for logistics guys?
The new industrial revamp increases manufacturing costs with each new work installed, even in null sec; so if you whant to make null industry worth it you won-¦t increase the cost of manufacturing (lets say) 1000munins (lol) manufacturing 1000 ruptures, so; where are this ships going to come from? And how?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
411
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Posted - 2014.05.18 14:53:00 -
[737] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Ignorant people claiming it was JF pilots asking for rigs are just GǪstating facts, and are being met with abuse now as then when pointing out the obvious consequences. Quote:this is really pushing it to make industry local, which is what the big 0.0 alliances wanted, nothing to do with people wanting and not getting improved EHP for their freighters and Jump Freighters. The big nullsec alliances weren't particularly fussed about industry being local GÇö they just wanted null industry to not be a thoroughly braindead proposition. The Crius changes will address that to some extent, but the main problem is that null industry can't be local. It relies on materials that can't be had locally, but which have to be imported from all over the place (via higsec). This change makes such imports more annoying and will, if anything, concentrate industry more around the central trading hubs than before. Granted, in many cases it's thoroughly inefficient to import the materials rather than the final product regardless, so the effect will be fairly minor.
That was a most amusing troll post, if you seriously believe all of that then I pity you... Don't be a turd and follow the herd Instead be a Hero at Hub Zero |
Priestess Lin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:58:00 -
[738] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:I love the fact that we will be able to customize the freighters now but being able to customize them to current or slightly better levels at a much higher cost doesn't make much sense. My basic observation of the numbers without doing any math maybe complete wrong but it looks like this is a major nerf. So the question is then, did freighters require a nerf? Were they too OP in the current form?
They are doing the same thing to the Rattlesnake. Drastic changes to a heavy SP intensive ship. The nerfs are more numerious than the buffs to that ship and totally unnecessary.
Clearly devs don't seem to understand the game and their players as well as they think they do. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:00:00 -
[739] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Lets imagine for a second that you don't need to haul anything but those special materials and components. No hulls, ammo, or minerals, available in your local space - nothing. Only those selected items you are absolutely need to import and can't gather them at home. Woulnd't it become even less of a hassle this way then it is now for logistics guys? No, quite the contrary. The problem is not as much the materials you absolutely need to import in order to run your local production chains of *everything*.
If you *have* to produce as much as possible locally, then you risk loosing the economy of scale, gained when players specialize in manufacturing or collecting particular components or materials.
Access to the large trade hubs in Empire acts as buffers and insurance against scarcity of any bottlenecks in your supply pipeline. Your alliance T2 production won't suddenly grind to a halt, if the local PI enthusiasts decides to take a few weeks off.
Attempting to force as much as possible of the production of *everything* to be local by limiting ease of long distance logistics, would basically be the same as asking the players to do double effort on a *massive* scale. Meaning that it won't happen. It will just result in price increases across the board.
Time is money. Forcing players to do double effort for the same outcome means increased prices. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21916
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:02:00 -
[740] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:That is not given, numbers can be tweaked and extremes accepted (like the new +20% cargo freighters).
That extreme isn't very extreme, for one, but its limiting factor was also able to be adjusted upwards. That is not always the case. In fact, I'd say that it's very rare that it's the case.
But even in your example, look at what those extremes have done: we accept a new upper bound for hauling volume that is 20% higher. That's effectively just one T2 rig. But look what they had to do to compensate for the fact that you can fit three rigs: the other two had to be completely swallowed up by the nerf.
And cargo is a very slight adjustment on the scale of things. Let's take the oft-mentioned DCII for instance. If you could fit one of those on a freighter, you'd almost triple its EHP, before we even fit anything else. That's so way over the top, and it comes so cheaply, that the baseline hull, shield, and armour values had to all come down to compensate so the end result GÇö should someone be so evil as to fit one GÇö would maybe only be that 20%. The mere possibility to fit a DCII requires hull HP to drop by nearly 50%.
Now do this same calculation across every statistic and every possibility and you'll end up with massive nerfs across the board. Of course, you have a limited amount of slots so you can't compensate for all of them GÇö at most you can push one up to the extreme value, or perhaps more sanely, you can push one up to its previous value and compensate a second one half-way. That just leaves every other stat on the ship worse off than before. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21916
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:03:00 -
[741] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:That was a most amusing troll post, if you seriously believe all of that then I pity you... So I'm right then, seeing as how you can't present an argument to the contrary and have to go right for continue the ad hominems. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
518
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:07:00 -
[742] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:There has to and there are other way to improve and enable industry and self-sustainability in 00 sec. Ways that require a bit more thinking on CCP's and the player side, but that is too much to ask apparently. Will be interesting to see if Mittens will ask his fellow Goons to venture forth and mine Veldspar in 0.0 for their supercap production, or if they still expect to import compressed ore from HiSec...
Remains to be seen, but one of the CFC posters in this kind of threads (was it Grench?) said, they would not require their members to do this kind of labor. So ... go figure. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
411
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:07:00 -
[743] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dracvlad wrote:That was a most amusing troll post, if you seriously believe all of that then I pity you... So I'm right then, seeing as how you can't present an argument to the contrary and have to go right for continue the ad hominems.
Well for example you said that null sec alliances were not asking for a buff in manufacturing, which is very very false, that one was so clearly a troll it was amusing, you actually trolled yourself on that one. Don't be a turd and follow the herd Instead be a Hero at Hub Zero |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research Special Circumstances Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:10:00 -
[744] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote: Attempting to force as much as possible of the production of *everything* to be local by limiting ease of long distance logistics, would basically be the same as asking the players to do double effort on a *massive* scale. Meaning that it won't happen. It will just result in price increases across the board.
Time is money. Forcing players to do double effort for the same outcome means increased prices.
Until someone will start to actually do what you refer to as infeasible and cut the prices, of course. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11621
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:14:00 -
[745] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Tippia wrote:Dracvlad wrote:That was a most amusing troll post, if you seriously believe all of that then I pity you... So I'm right then, seeing as how you can't present an argument to the contrary and have to go right for continue the ad hominems. Well for example you said that null sec alliances were not asking for a buff in manufacturing, which is very very false, that one was so clearly a troll it was amusing, you actually trolled yourself on that one.
Tippia did not say that. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Dave Stark
5755
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:15:00 -
[746] - Quote
considering there's always someone that says this regardless of what's been announced, i honestly don't think they care all that much. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10160
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:15:00 -
[747] - Quote
Hey everyone. I haven't caught up on the entire thread yet (still working through page 19) but I wanted to quickly let you guys know that the mass values that were previously listed in the OP for freighters were a mistake on the forum post. We never changed the freighter mass values, and have no intention of preventing them from travelling through highsec wormholes.
The numbers are now corrected in the OP.
Ok, back to reading the rest of the thread. I'll let you guys know when I'm caught up. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11621
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:18:00 -
[748] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I haven't caught up on the entire thread yet (still working through page 19) but I wanted to quickly let you guys know that the mass values that were previously listed in the OP for freighters were a mistake on the forum post. We never changed the freighter mass values, and have no intention of preventing them from travelling through highsec wormholes.
The numbers are now corrected in the OP.
Ok, back to reading the rest of the thread. I'll let you guys know when I'm caught up.
Odin help you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21919
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:18:00 -
[749] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Well for example you said that null sec alliances were not asking for a buff in manufacturing So you decided to change from an ad hominem fallacy to a strawman fallacy. Yeah, I think I'll hang on to that GÇ£can't prove me wrong so applies fallacy insteadGÇ¥ interpretation because it's the only one that makes sense. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6340
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:18:00 -
[750] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I haven't caught up on the entire thread yet (still working through page 19) but I wanted to quickly let you guys know that the mass values that were previously listed in the OP for freighters were a mistake on the forum post. We never changed the freighter mass values, and have no intention of preventing them from travelling through highsec wormholes.
The numbers are now corrected in the OP.
Ok, back to reading the rest of the thread. I'll let you guys know when I'm caught up.
Excellent, thank you very much for that. Pretty sure a bunch of wormhole guys are in the hospital with heart attacks though. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
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