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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Kazanir
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
490
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Posted - 2014.05.20 00:46:00 -
[1471] - Quote
I haven't really seen Fozzie post about why their initial implementation of these changes was as bad of a nerf as it is. It seems like they:
1. Decided to add rigs to JFs because they are removing special cases 2. Decided to balance so that with 2 T2 rigs, JFs would only be able to just slightly beat their current stats 3. Failed to notice that this was a fairly large nerf -- either a significant nerf to align time or cargo, as well as a large up-front cost increase 4. Justified that nerf after the fact by saying to themselves, "well, JFs are really good right now, they could use a little bit of a nerf anyway"
If the design team actually wants to nerf JFs -- which it is not my sense that they set out to do with these changes -- they should do it in the right way. I'm an expert on the subject! I can provide some suggestions that would be real nerfs without making an unfun part of the game even shittier -- as the align time change in particular does. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22057
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Posted - 2014.05.20 00:46:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Then lets see some examples. See the post that started it, perhaps? And the one that followed. Of course, you'll just claim that you didn't say what you said like last timeGǪ
Quote:Since when are repair modules not tanking mods? Oh myGǪ you don't even know what hull upgrades are. We're not talking about repair modules here.
Quote:And given the topic of what we are talking about (capital ships) My argument works for the freighter too. More accurately, your argument doesn't work for freighters either, since expanders are not part of the tanking arsenal, and in the end, it turns out that bulkheads are actually underpowered compared to all the other options. Since their fitting requirements have no effect on that particular characteristic, lowering them to 0/0 makes no difference for that balance.
Quote:The problem here is that you think I'm arguing bulkheads are underpowered. No, I don't. I know you're trying (and failing) to do the opposite. The example you used proved that you have no idea how capships are fitted. What you actually and accidentally proved was that bulkheads are underpowered; that if there is a balance problem, it's in the opposite of the direction you're thinking; and that reducing their fitting requirements to be in line with the other hull upgrades won't create or inflate any kind of imbalance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
576
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Posted - 2014.05.20 00:47:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Confirms two more accounts that are going to die.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11682
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 00:48:00 -
[1474] - Quote
Miss Everest wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Good evening everyone. Just wanted to let you guys know that we haven't forgotten about you. I'm discussing a few improvements to the design with the CSM now, and we'll be able to start getting your feedback on them soon.
Have a good night! I hope you leave the stats of these ships alone...for the mostpart. Change Cargoholds so with T2 Rigs you cannot smuggle Capitals into Highsec! I can understand a slight poke here and there with the base stats, but nothing to radical as they currently are! Otherwise I'll be asking alot of "Why exactly are these changes necessary outside of something to do." Which would promptly be ignored in a orderly fashion. Seriously why not just make capitals a prohibited item in HS. That would solve that problem.
Then we still have the issue of freighter simply hauling far too much stuff in one go. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6410
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Posted - 2014.05.20 00:51:00 -
[1475] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Confirms two more accounts that are going to die.
Can I have your stuff? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
576
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:00:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:
Confirms two more accounts that are going to die.
Can I have your stuff?
Obviously not - you didn't earn it. Go beg somewhere else. CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6410
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:02:00 -
[1477] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:
Confirms two more accounts that are going to die.
Can I have your stuff? Obviously not - you didn't earn it. Go beg somewhere else.
Not a beg, more of an inquiry.
I mean, if your conviction against the freighter changes is that strong, nothing less than biomassing your characters after cancelling your subscription will do.
So why let those assets go to waste? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11684
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:02:00 -
[1478] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:
Confirms two more accounts that are going to die.
Can I have your stuff? Obviously not - you didn't earn it. Go beg somewhere else.
I'll take your freighters off your hands. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
100
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:04:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Red Frog Freight have just announced they will lower their cargo limit from 860.000m3 to 715.000m3: https://sites.google.com/site/rffguidelines/rff-service-changes
This s*cks. |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
96
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:11:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Well, There had to be some nerf to cargo capacity. Too many fools would simply cram in T2 cargo hold rigs.
I looked forward to the ability of adding a low-friction nozzle and warp speed rig. Perhaps a hull rig for grins and moving on with faster hauling in exchange for smaller cargo hold. Frankly I rarely ran full anyway.....
Now I read the proposed numbers, and well, wow.
I'll need that hull rig now, and still be thinner skinned then before. And that cargo space, well I never needed it all. I may not even miss it that much. It does seem like a high price to pay for ability to pay more ISK to be a little faster. Take the cargo OR take the EHP. Taking both seems excessive. |
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Alexis Nightwish
State War Academy Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:12:00 -
[1481] - Quote
Jump freighters are OP. They are OP because of jump/cyno mechanics, not because of tank, agility, cargo, or whatever other attribute you want to haphazardly whack around with the nerf bat.
You want to make it more appealing to do industry in null, and within smaller areas? This isn't the way to do it. Instead, make jumps cost fuel relative to the distance jumped (possibly going up exponentially with distance?), and don't allow cynos to be lit within 1AU of any celestials. Suddenly JFs aren't invulnerable, and we get a nice power projection nerf at the same time. Win-win.
The T1 freighter nerfs are way too harsh. It's basically like this:
CCP: We're all about "player choice", so we're going to take a slightly UP ship class that has no alternatives to its use and nerf the **** out of it. But to make it okay we'll make sure you can get approximately the pre-nerf value in ONE area by using incredibly expensive rigs.
Freighter Pilot: So what you're saying is that you're going to kick me in the balls, and tell me it's okay because now I can buy Aspirin?
CCP: You got it! ^^
FP: So basically a nerf is totally justified so long as one nerfed aspect can be restored with all your rig slots? What a load of bull****!
Carrier Pilot: Something something Nyx... |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:12:00 -
[1482] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Good evening everyone. Just wanted to let you guys know that we haven't forgotten about you. I'm discussing a few improvements to the design with the CSM now, and we'll be able to start getting your feedback on them soon.
Have a good night!
Fozzie - hopefully the CSM is giving you good feedback, but do us all a favor and ask yourself this:
If I was introducing freighters today, what would they look like?
You guys have put in a lot of work and done a great job with rebalancing and tiericide. How about we avoid making a half-arsed change now and either leave freighters alone or devote the same kind of time to doing it right. |
Delhaven
Vicis Inter Astrum I'd Rather Be Roaming
45
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:31:00 -
[1483] - Quote
Delhaven wrote:I can't wait to see what Black Frog will be doing with this. I feel bad for the folks there who will have to come up with the new load limits. Interesting. Does that mean they're requiring all of their pilots to spend 140M ISK on a pair of Cargohold Optimization Rigs to reach that volume?
I'd have guessed that they'd have dropped it to 500K m3 to accommodate all of the various rigging options. |
Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
9
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:44:00 -
[1484] - Quote
Steijn wrote:sorry, but that is nothing more than a massive nerf.
Oh that's precious....And you were expecting what from CFCFozzie.....that guy hasn't met a ship he couldn't frack up with a nerf bat....he does not care how much effort or how many years you've spent training......ooopppss better stop...somebody might get angry or call me a care bear or something |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
96
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:51:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Delhaven wrote:Delhaven wrote:I can't wait to see what Black Frog will be doing with this. I feel bad for the folks there who will have to come up with the new load limits. Interesting. Does that mean they're requiring all of their pilots to spend 140M ISK on a pair of Cargohold Optimization Rigs to reach that volume? I'd have guessed that they'd have dropped it to 500K m3 to accommodate all of the various rigging options.
I don't think you have to be able to haul the max to fly for them. Clearly your choice of contracts will be smaller if you can't though.
Either way that is a 17% increase in the cost of hauling raw materials. That will get passed on in the finished product price to the consumer. Not a huge issue on its own, but in July when we pass on the job install costs that might get "interesting".
I'm curious how many other unintneded consequences will cascade from this?
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2522
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Posted - 2014.05.20 01:57:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Valterra Craven
245
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Posted - 2014.05.20 02:05:00 -
[1487] - Quote
Tippia wrote:See the post that started it, perhaps? And the one that followed. Of course, you'll just claim that you didn't say what you said like last timeGǪ
You mean the one where you accused me of trolling or the one where you accused me of spamming? See the thing is you know that you started this BS in the first place. So I'm not sure how you have the right to argue such points when I've done no such thing but respond to your posts showing the hypocrisy of your words.
Tippia wrote:Oh myGǪ you don't even know what hull upgrades are. We're not talking about repair modules here.
Correct, I misunderstood what you were implying. I thought you were trying to that because you don't believe bulkheads are unbalanced that hull tanking is viable and thus were bringing repair mods into the discussion. That aside, I also know that just because a mod rests in a certain spot in the market list doesn't mean that that is how the modules are balanced. The other hull upgrades ARENT tanking modules and are thus not balanced like they are. Bulkheads are a tank module and as such rightly have fitting requirements even though in the current meta their benefit is woefully overpowered to their fitting cost.
Tippia wrote:More accurately, your argument doesn't work for freighters either, since expanders are not part of the tanking arsenal, and in the end, it turns out that bulkheads are actually underpowered compared to all the other options. Since their fitting requirements have no effect on that particular characteristic, lowering them to 0/0 makes no difference for that balance.
I have no idea what you trying to say here. But at least we agree one one thing: Expanders are not tanking modules and bulkheads are.
Tippia wrote: The example you used proved that you have no idea how capships are fitted. What you actually and accidentally proved was that bulkheads are underpowered; that if there is a balance problem, it's in the opposite of the direction you're thinking; and that reducing their fitting requirements to be in line with the other hull upgrades won't create or inflate any kind of imbalance.
The problem is that we are arguing at two ends of the spectrum. I'm arguing that hull tanking isn't viable on more than one ship due to the meta. You are arguing that bulkheads aren't overpowered when their benefits are applied to the cap ship class.
So on point: *Sigh* Right, do you really think someone thats been in game since 2005 would actually fit a capship that way? What I actually proved was that in terms of their fitting costs that they give orders of magnitudes more effective HP than comparable modules.
But as usual you have to keep moving the goal posts even though you are only argueing that bulkheads aren't overpowered and DCU's are not bulkheads. So lets look at another comparable example. If you were to make a similar fit comparison and did just invuls and extenders and then did a DCU and bulkheads, the outcome is still the same. Orders of magnitudes better buffs than comparable.
1 DCU t2 4 bulkheads t2 1.3mil effective hp boost
1 t2 invul 4 t2 large extenders 164k effective hp boost
But lets keep going... even at the best case of 5 t2 invuls thats still only half a mil effective HP boost.
My point is merely this: bulkheads percentage based boosts for cap ships are overpowered given the huge amount of hull they all have. The ONLY reason people don't hull tank cap ships is because there are no cap ship hull repair mods that use a comparable amount of cap to armor or shield repair mods.
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Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
101
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Posted - 2014.05.20 02:12:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Either way that is a 17% increase in the cost of hauling raw materials Actually, it is a 20% increase in hauling cost per m3. But otherwise you're right: It will eventually filter down to miners and consumers. Solo players, medium corps, and small alliances will be hurt. Big rich alliances will just shrug it off. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
576
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:39:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Is someone taking a dump before heading off to LoL land?
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Ben Hatton
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:44:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Delhaven wrote:Delhaven wrote:I can't wait to see what Black Frog will be doing with this. I feel bad for the folks there who will have to come up with the new load limits. Interesting. Does that mean they're requiring all of their pilots to spend 80M ISK on a Cargohold Optimization Rig to reach that volume? I'd have guessed that they'd have dropped it to 500K m3 to accommodate all of the various rigging options.
Its not an unreasonable request, as when joining any corp you have your doctrine fits. |
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Tora Hamaji
Republic University Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2014.05.20 02:56:00 -
[1491] - Quote
your stupidity is beyond belief!
you take a fine class of ships and f*** it in every way possible. now it's
less cargo
less EHP
fuckton more expensive.
whatever you think you're doing, you've got **** for brains. |
stoicfaux
4837
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:59:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Nah. Better idea. Turn all freighters into ship haulers. Put your cargo into industrials, load/attach/dock the industrials to your freighter, and *presto* instant container ship.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
101
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:02:00 -
[1493] - Quote
Delhaven wrote:Interesting. Does that mean [Red Frog Freight are] requiring all of their pilots to spend 80M ISK on a Cargohold Optimization Rig to reach that volume? As I understand it, they require their pilots to have one rig. |
stoicfaux
4837
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:02:00 -
[1494] - Quote
Robert Parr wrote:Steijn wrote:sorry, but that is nothing more than a massive nerf. Oh that's precious....And you were expecting what from CFCFozzie.....that guy hasn't met a ship he couldn't frack up with a nerf bat....he does not care how much effort or how many years you've spent training......ooopppss better stop...somebody might get angry or call me a care bear or something Well, to be fair, people have been calling for a medium freighter for quite some time now... Shame on use for assuming we would get a new hull. =/
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
143
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:02:00 -
[1495] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Nah. Better idea. Turn all freighters into ship haulers. Put your cargo into industrials, load/attach/dock the industrials to your freighter, and *presto* instant container ship.
I'm not sure if you're joking, but I actually really like this idea. I can't really imagine it happening though, too much butthurt. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
128
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:06:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Xavier Thorm wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Nah. Better idea. Turn all freighters into ship haulers. Put your cargo into industrials, load/attach/dock the industrials to your freighter, and *presto* instant container ship. I'm not sure if you're joking, but I actually really like this idea. I can't really imagine it happening though, too much butthurt.
Lol its a pretty obvious troll. Though, if hypothetically JF were removed from the game, t2 prices would skyrocket overnight. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
59
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:11:00 -
[1497] - Quote
Huang Mo wrote:Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Either way that is a 17% increase in the cost of hauling raw materials Actually, it is a 20% increase in hauling cost per m3. But otherwise you're right: It will eventually filter down to miners and consumers. Solo players, medium corps, and small alliances will be hurt. Big rich alliances will just shrug it off.
This kind of logic still continues to baffle me. Do you think the big alliances and coalitions move all our personal things? Sure they may pay for fuel to move our combat-related gear, but when it comes to our personal stuff, or output related to industry, or loot that needs to be sold, that's on us. Now some of us may be personally better off than others, but I'm pretty sure the average pilot in a big nullsec alliance has the same issues as anyone else. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
59
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:14:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:Xavier Thorm wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Nah. Better idea. Turn all freighters into ship haulers. Put your cargo into industrials, load/attach/dock the industrials to your freighter, and *presto* instant container ship. I'm not sure if you're joking, but I actually really like this idea. I can't really imagine it happening though, too much butthurt. Lol its a pretty obvious troll. Though, if hypothetically JF were removed from the game, t2 prices would skyrocket overnight.
I'm pretty sure that if JFs were eliminated altogether that PL would immediately form a titan bridging freighter service we could all use. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
128
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:15:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:Jump freighters are OP. They are OP because of jump/cyno mechanics, not because of tank, agility, cargo, or whatever other attribute you want to haphazardly whack around with the nerf bat.
You want to make it more appealing to do industry in null, and within smaller areas? This isn't the way to do it. Instead, make jumps cost fuel relative to the distance jumped (possibly going up exponentially with distance?), and don't allow cynos to be lit within 1AU of any celestials. Suddenly JFs aren't invulnerable, and we get a nice power projection nerf at the same time. Win-win.
The T1 freighter nerfs are way too harsh. It's basically like this:
CCP: We're all about "player choice", so we're going to take a slightly UP ship class that has no alternatives to its use and nerf the **** out of it. But to make it okay we'll make sure you can get approximately the pre-nerf value in ONE area by using incredibly expensive rigs.
Freighter Pilot: So what you're saying is that you're going to kick me in the balls, and tell me it's okay because now I can buy Aspirin?
CCP: You got it! ^^
FP: So basically a nerf is totally justified so long as one nerfed aspect can be restored with all your rig slots? What a load of bull****!
Carrier Pilot: Something something Nyx...
You obviously are not part of any decently sized alliance and do not play the same game as anyone else if you really think any of that. That is possibly the stupidest post so far in this entire thread. Every major alliance in the game would no longer have any logistical back bone if that were the case. This is ofc besides the fact that Ice and Moon Minerals are region based, so to make any T2 items, or to fuel POSes that are not the same race as the ice in the region that you are based in, you have to go to a trade hub anyway.
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Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
128
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Posted - 2014.05.20 03:16:00 -
[1500] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:Xavier Thorm wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Remove jump freighters from the game, turn them all into regular freighters, refund the skill points on the pilots in question.
Thanks
Wren Nah. Better idea. Turn all freighters into ship haulers. Put your cargo into industrials, load/attach/dock the industrials to your freighter, and *presto* instant container ship. I'm not sure if you're joking, but I actually really like this idea. I can't really imagine it happening though, too much butthurt. Lol its a pretty obvious troll. Though, if hypothetically JF were removed from the game, t2 prices would skyrocket overnight. I'm pretty sure that if JFs were eliminated altogether that PL would immediately form a titan bridging freighter service we could all use.
Welcome to how every major alliance in the game gets their solv upgrades to their space. |
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