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Charlie Crewes
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good day folks
Recently joined a new corp and alliance on my main, and one of their requirements is to have an Armor T3 at a particular location available for use. All of my PvP has been in frigs or as logi, and I have no experience with T3's. This would only be used for fleet work.
I'm looking at the Legion and trying to fit one up in EFT, but I can't figure out the advantages of a T3, and am hoping someone can fill me in. When it comes to the Legion...
GÇó Neuts - wouldn't a Curse be a better neut boat than a Legion, for considerably less isk? If you want cloaky, then take the Pilgrim. GÇó DPS - wouldn't taking a Zealot or other HAC be more effective and cheaper than T3? Apparently not, but why not?
What is the big benefit to T3's for fleet PvP? |
Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
my loki is used in fleets as a dual web tackler |
Charlie Crewes
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
So why the Loki instead of a Rapier? |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
39
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:So why the Loki instead of a Rapier?
Here is a hint; Go play around with eft and tell me what kind of tank you can get on a rapier versus a Loki. Then look at their DPS.
Additionally, unless it's small gang or blops, you wouldn't bring a rapier, you would bring a hugnin. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
39
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive. |
Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive.
mine is the region of 600mil and losing that you also take a hit to your sp, i guess the flexibility and tank and dps is more of a plus over a rapier
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Charlie Crewes
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive.
Ah - I was of the impression fit T3's were still in the billion plus range. That explains some of it I guess. But when it comes to DPS roles, don't HAC's have similar DPS while being a bit tankier? |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
804
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 15:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
You have now joined a 'LEET' PvP corp. You will no longer be able to think for yourself. |
Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive. Ah - I was of the impression fit T3's were still in the billion plus range. That explains some of it I guess. But when it comes to DPS roles, don't HAC's have similar DPS while being a bit tankier?
mix them use the t3's for tackle and the hacs for dps |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
40
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive. Ah - I was of the impression fit T3's were still in the billion plus range. That explains some of it I guess. But when it comes to DPS roles, don't HAC's have similar DPS while being a bit tankier?
T3 cruisers will out tank any HAC. |
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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
40
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Posted - 2014.05.22 15:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive. mine is the region of 600mil and losing that you also take a hit to your sp, i guess the flexibility and tank and dps is more of a plus over a rapier
Then I imagine you have some faction/dead space gear on it. |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
194
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Posted - 2014.05.22 16:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
As line combat ships, they are incredibly strong. They combine the raw EHP and damage output of battleships with the signature radius, resistance profiles, and application of HACs. Large guns will struggle to apply damage to them and no cruiser short of another T3 can match them for raw power. They are also much more mobile than battleships, and their smaller signature radius makes them far less vulnerable to ever-looming bombing runs or the occasional Dreadnaught escalations.
For armor fleets, they can perform essential support roles while being extraordinarily difficult to kill. Fleets will typically use dedicated webbing and pointing ships to make the primary target easier to apply damage to and prevent them from warping out when they notice your whole fleet has them targeted. This would normally mean Recon ships like the Huginn and the Lachesis, but those have thin tanks and are very difficult to keep alive against opponents that want them dead. A fully bricked out pointing Proteus doesn't have quite as much range, but clocks in at nearly half a million raw EHP with its lowest resistances at 86%. There is no feasible way to blow that up from under the nose of its logistics the way you can blap through a 100k EHP Lachesis.
Their only real Achilles Heels is their capacitor. At the end of the day, they are still essentially cruiser-sized vessels, so heavy neuts from something like an Armageddon are not something they have a good answer to beyond "stay further away than 40km |
Perihelion Olenard
207
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Posted - 2014.05.22 17:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Voyager Arran is correct. They are incredibly strong for what they are. I don't see why I would spend two months training for an Eos or Astarte when I am already using the Proteus (for combat, not links). It has the damage a command ship with a tank of a battleship, not even considering the signature radius. It is not hard to train for, either. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
597
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Posted - 2014.05.22 17:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:[...]
I'm looking at the Legion and trying to fit one up in EFT, but I can't figure out the advantages of a T3, and am hoping someone can fill me in. When it comes to the Legion...
GÇó Neuts - wouldn't a Curse be a better neut boat than a Legion, for considerably less isk? If you want cloaky, then take the Pilgrim. GÇó DPS - wouldn't taking a Zealot or other HAC be more effective and cheaper than T3? Apparently not, but why not?
What is the big benefit to T3's for fleet PvP?
When it comes to those comparisons, T3s in a Recon-role tend to be much worse at the actual recon, but having upwards of three times the tank. (All numbers are with damnationboosts, expectiing a suboptimal pilot) Since fleet engagements are currently based stronly around *critical mass* (= fielding enough volley damage/dps to kill hostiles before they're saved by logistics), going up against Zealots or Legions makes the difference wether you need to blast through 75k ehp or roughly 180k ehp. If you'd like to shoot that huginn, then you certainly only need to break a 50k-60k ehp tank, but that goes up to 150k using a loki for the same job in an armorgang. Further, they don't overlap tbh since Huginn is a shieldtanker and loki is an armortanker. In addition, the Legion is basically a tanky zealot with 16% more dps. (6 lasers against 5 with identical boni)
If you compare the neutlegion to the curse, they even got two completely different tasks! The Curse is a shieldtanked longrange neuter, the legion is an armortanked, shortranged one. Tank numbers are around 50k for a curse and upwards of 180k for a legion.
As such, vital recon roles for larger engagements are preferably realying on T3s fitted for that task due to their insane buffer. The armor-webbing-loki is the exception here, it's been used because it is till now the only longrange webbing armorship that isn't a bhaalgorn. The new Ashimmu has good odds to change that for small engagements though. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
805
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Posted - 2014.05.23 01:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Voyager Arran is correct. They are incredibly strong for what they are. I don't see why I would spend two months training for an Eos or Astarte when I am already using the Proteus (for combat, not links). It has the damage of at least a command ship with a tank of a battleship, not even considering the signature radius. It is not hard to train for, either.
I get1100+ DPS out of my Astarte, and because it's a medium weapon system it is consistently 'applied' DPS. Tank base is 40,000 HP and it reps almost 600 every 7 seconds with a T2 rep. Base hull is 225 mil consistently. They really are a beast in certain conditions. Not necessarily 'better' than a Proteus, but good in the right conditions. |
Alexander McKeon
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
65
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Posted - 2014.05.23 01:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
T3s can also do neat things like fit interdiction nullifiers so that the dictors which larger nullsec fleets rely on for tackle can safely be ignored. Give it sig links and it'll take less damage than your command ship in addition to having a lower mass which lets you have more of them in a fleet before travel becomes difficult.
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Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
349
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Posted - 2014.05.23 02:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
armor T3? Get a Proteus. Look no further. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1040
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 03:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:Good day folks
Recently joined a new corp and alliance on my main, and one of their requirements is to have an Armor T3 at a particular location available for use. All of my PvP has been in frigs or as logi, and I have no experience with T3's. This would only be used for fleet work.
I'm looking at the Legion and trying to fit one up in EFT, but I can't figure out the advantages of a T3, and am hoping someone can fill me in. When it comes to the Legion...
GÇó Neuts - wouldn't a Curse be a better neut boat than a Legion, for considerably less isk? If you want cloaky, then take the Pilgrim. GÇó DPS - wouldn't taking a Zealot or other HAC be more effective and cheaper than T3? Apparently not, but why not?
What is the big benefit to T3's for fleet PvP?
It really depends on the area of space they you're flying in.
For us in particular within WH space the legion is a great ship as it has around 150K ehp, 650 dps of selectable damage type that hits from 0 to 20km.
Nothing to see here.... Move along
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 12:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Charlie Crewes wrote:Good day folks
Recently joined a new corp and alliance on my main, and one of their requirements is to have an Armor T3 at a particular location available for use. All of my PvP has been in frigs or as logi, and I have no experience with T3's. This would only be used for fleet work.
I'm looking at the Legion and trying to fit one up in EFT, but I can't figure out the advantages of a T3, and am hoping someone can fill me in. When it comes to the Legion...
GÇó Neuts - wouldn't a Curse be a better neut boat than a Legion, for considerably less isk? If you want cloaky, then take the Pilgrim. GÇó DPS - wouldn't taking a Zealot or other HAC be more effective and cheaper than T3? Apparently not, but why not?
What is the big benefit to T3's for fleet PvP?
HUGE EHP with very high resists and reasonable DPS. All while keeping high mobility. Simple as that. You also can travel around in Warp immune ships on certain situations. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 12:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:Voyager Arran is correct. They are incredibly strong for what they are. I don't see why I would spend two months training for an Eos or Astarte when I am already using the Proteus (for combat, not links). It has the damage of at least a command ship with a tank of a battleship, not even considering the signature radius. It is not hard to train for, either. I get 1100+ DPS out of my Astarte, and because it's a medium weapon system it is consistently 'applied' DPS. Tank base is 40,000 HP, with resists at 70, 80, 90, 70. and it reps almost 600 every 7 seconds with one T2 rep. In a Logi fleet it could drop the rep for more tank OR gank. Base hull is 225 mil consistently. They really are a beast in certain conditions. Not necessarily 'better' than a Proteus, but good in the right conditions. I'll admit, I do not use it in fleet scenarios, more small gang, gate and station stuff. Not argueing you or voyagers point, just pointing out the Astarte stats.
IF CS warped at 3AU/s they woudl be ok. But they do not. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
437
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 12:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
T3 hulls are cheap. They have 2-3x more tank than HAC's and with lvl 4 skills they are easy to maintain without losing massive SP's. You lose a days training at worst.
As for command ships: They are massive in terms of sig radius, very poor agility and recieve very poor speed bonuses from afterburners. T3's have an entire subsystem devoted to after burners.
The end result is this: Bonus to Tanking (usuall hit-points instead of resists on armor t3's), bonus to range and damage, bonus to AB speed, bonus to electronics (higher scran res/targetting range/smaller sig radius), flexible slot layouts.
All this with a cruiser Hull. people underetimate a small sig radius combined with 600/700 m/s speeds. Then engaging at 60KM, most sub-BS guns wont reach for any meaningful damage. And BS guns will struggle to apply damage.
I suppose the answer to the OP's questions is simply: They have a lot of little benefits that add up to a significant advantage. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
221
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Posted - 2014.05.23 13:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive.
Where? signature |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
437
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 16:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:Also, we are in the age of 350m full T2 fit T3 cruisers, they are not that expensive. Where?
The legion. It costs pennies. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2146
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 16:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
t3's can generally do about 80% as well as recons with many times the tank.
Thats most of it really.. being able to do things other ships do.. but with more tank.,
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 18:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:Voyager Arran is correct. They are incredibly strong for what they are. I don't see why I would spend two months training for an Eos or Astarte when I am already using the Proteus (for combat, not links). It has the damage of at least a command ship with a tank of a battleship, not even considering the signature radius. It is not hard to train for, either. I get 1100+ DPS out of my Astarte, and because it's a medium weapon system it is consistently 'applied' DPS. Tank base is 40,000 HP, with resists at 70, 80, 90, 70. and it reps almost 600 every 7 seconds with one T2 rep. In a Logi fleet it could drop the rep for more tank OR gank. Base hull is 225 mil consistently. They really are a beast in certain conditions. Not necessarily 'better' than a Proteus, but good in the right conditions. I'll admit, I do not use it in fleet scenarios, more small gang, gate and station stuff. Not argueing you or voyagers point, just pointing out the Astarte stats.
Some command ships can come close to the raw numbers on a T3, but they run into issues with mobility and incoming damage. Part of what makes T3s good is that larger weapons have problems against cruiser-sized hulls afterburning along at 700+ m/s. A Vulture can be fit out to be pretty near equivalent to a Tengu in terms of buffer and damage output, but they're not going to avoid incoming damage in anywhere near the same way and have more serious problems with mobility if you try to AB fit them. |
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