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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4421
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Posted - 2014.11.21 18:36:20 -
[181] - Quote
Tappits wrote:We already have a system where there is less safety for supers vs every other ship in the game. You can log off in safe spots, which can be probed down and you can kill the super when they log back on. (This already happens) You can log off in POSGÇÖs which can be killed and you put your own pos up and wait for the super to log back on and kill it. (This already happens) What you want is a system where you can kill Supers that donGÇÖt have an active person there at their PC logged into eve, In fact you want a system where you can kill some ones super who is @ work or on Holiday or maybe just taking a break from eve. This change would mean any ship not in a station or in some sort of docking thing in a POS is 100% of the time kill-able at any time.
I just need to move from point A to point B, your moving in any type of shipGǪ someone knocks on your doorGǪ itGÇÖs your friend and he just come round to have a chat. Your letGÇÖs say 10-20mins away from anywhere you can dock and safe up. Or you need to nip to the shop, have a ****, phone rings, wife/GF would like you to put a shelf up badly. There are so many problems involved with these ideas that CCP would never let it happen as it would seriously affect their income.
Or are you going to say GÇ£o no non supers can still log off and be safe in space at any timeGÇ¥ If you change it you change it all and that just kills the game.
You have to be a troll because i refuse to accept there are people that are this dumb that play eve. Why shouldn't supers and titans be treated as corporate assets, rather than personal ones?
Your entire argument is based around not being able to either trust other players, or experiencing personal risk in a greater context than smaller ship classes.
You need a corp to anchor a POS. Why should you not need a corp to maintain and support a super?
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Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
68
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Posted - 2014.11.21 18:48:41 -
[182] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: Why shouldn't supers and titans be treated as corporate assets, rather than personal ones?
Your entire argument is based around not being able to either trust other players, or experiencing personal risk in a greater context than smaller ship classes.
You need a corp to anchor a POS. Why should you not need a corp to maintain and support a super?
Because thereGÇÖs no such thing as a Corporate Eve Account That Directors or CEOGÇÖs or whatever can log into and control. And account shearing is against the EULA |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4421
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Posted - 2014.11.21 19:13:04 -
[183] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: Why shouldn't supers and titans be treated as corporate assets, rather than personal ones?
Your entire argument is based around not being able to either trust other players, or experiencing personal risk in a greater context than smaller ship classes.
You need a corp to anchor a POS. Why should you not need a corp to maintain and support a super?
Because thereGÇÖs no such thing as a Corporate Eve Account That Directors or CEOGÇÖs or whatever can log into and control. And account shearing is against the EULA Ok, I can see that was misunderstood.
I am referring to changing the nature of a super, into something no single account can own or control. The CEO would assign one or more pilots to the super, and if your role was revoked, you would log back in with your pod after the next down-time. (The ship being transferred to another pilot, probably needing to be present in the same system to occur) I truly believe that individual pilots were given control of these originally, as a means of forcing the other corp members into trusting them. The expectation being, that they would not have been able to get into a super without explicit assistance from the corp.
I think this was to encourage risk, as a super pilot could defect WITH the ship to another corp, and the original corp would view the ship's loss as something stolen on a corporate level.
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Helios Panala
2
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Posted - 2014.11.21 19:39:22 -
[184] - Quote
Supers as Corp assets instead of personal assets is an idea worth exploring. |
Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
68
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Posted - 2014.11.21 20:04:11 -
[185] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Tappits wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: Why shouldn't supers and titans be treated as corporate assets, rather than personal ones?
Your entire argument is based around not being able to either trust other players, or experiencing personal risk in a greater context than smaller ship classes.
You need a corp to anchor a POS. Why should you not need a corp to maintain and support a super?
Because thereGÇÖs no such thing as a Corporate Eve Account That Directors or CEOGÇÖs or whatever can log into and control. And account shearing is against the EULA Ok, I can see that was misunderstood. I am referring to changing the nature of a super, into something no single account can own or control. The CEO would assign one or more pilots to the super, and if your role was revoked, you would log back in with your pod after the next down-time. (The ship being transferred to another pilot, probably needing to be present in the same system to occur) I truly believe that individual pilots were given control of these originally, as a means of forcing the other corp members into trusting them. The expectation being, that they would not have been able to get into a super without explicit assistance from the corp. I think this was to encourage risk, as a super pilot could defect WITH the ship to another corp, and the original corp would view the ship's loss as something stolen on a corporate level.
From reading this i don't think you even play the MMO EvE Online. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4421
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 20:45:23 -
[186] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Ok, I can see that was misunderstood.
I am referring to changing the nature of a super, into something no single account can own or control. The CEO would assign one or more pilots to the super, and if your role was revoked, you would log back in with your pod after the next down-time. (The ship being transferred to another pilot, probably needing to be present in the same system to occur) I truly believe that individual pilots were given control of these originally, as a means of forcing the other corp members into trusting them. The expectation being, that they would not have been able to get into a super without explicit assistance from the corp.
I think this was to encourage risk, as a super pilot could defect WITH the ship to another corp, and the original corp would view the ship's loss as something stolen on a corporate level.
From reading this i don't think you even play the MMO EvE Online. Really? The best response you have is an ad hominem attack, suggesting I lack familiarity with the game itself?
You create the impression that you consider the status quo a sacred pattern, and that deviating from it like this is automatically bad. You seem to have no regard for any consideration that it might improve gameplay, which is an undeniable possibility.
Change does not equal bad. Fear of change, is the first step towards failing to adapt, however.
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
159
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Posted - 2014.11.21 21:16:56 -
[187] - Quote
Its more likely people would have alts way off grid holding the cyno logged off. |
Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
68
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:23:01 -
[188] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: The best response you have is an ad hominem attack, suggesting I lack familiarity with the game itself?
You create the impression that you consider the status quo a sacred pattern, and that deviating from it like this is automatically bad. You seem to have no regard for any consideration that it might improve gameplay, which is an undeniable possibility.
Change does not equal bad. Fear of change, is the first step towards failing to adapt, however.
I donGÇÖt mind change, if the change is well thought through and has had peer review and makes the game better in some way, but your ideaGÇÖs are not like this at all. And all it does is make the alliances and coalitions that protect their assets already even more powerful than before and the small guys will not be able to.
Like for example. CFC sees your super POS. they siege it and all they have to do is stay there for 1d 17h and all your supers are dead. ItGÇÖs pretty easy for large coalitions to form and camp a static location from a smaller entity for 1d 17h when the end result is the total destruction of all your supers. Same goes for N3 and co..
The current counter to this is your invisible for an indefinite amount of time. You can still be fished and killed but itGÇÖs much harder than just form a large fleet for less than 2 days. (PL fished a logged off titan for about a year and killed him when he logged back in)
The system the OP and you are proposing has so many things wrong with it that are bad for the game as a hole, That it would kill any fun involved with been more than 2-4mins away from a dock able station for non-supers and would totally kill the use of carriers dreads and supers to take someoneGÇÖs space or anyoneGÇÖs fun in the game were there FORCED to all ways be active. And swapping to a system were the corp has to own the supers also has its own problems, my god thereGÇÖs so many problems with that I no way would CCP be smart enough to come up with a system that actually works or effect there amount of subscribers. It would be much simpler for ccp to let them dock and 100% refine them and remove the ability to undock and build them anymore and just remove the whole lot than do what you put.
Also how is saying you donGÇÖt play eve an ad hominem attack? And by saying that I know you are only a troll. Your corp and every corp you ever been in were pathetic and you are the most useless pod pilot in all of new eden. ThatGÇÖs an ad hominem attack.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
772
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:26:40 -
[189] - Quote
How about just letting supers/titans dock and then balance them accordingly? They loose some power in some way or another, and the owners aren't punished for owning them. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4422
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:29:56 -
[190] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:How about just letting supers/titans dock and then balance them accordingly? They loose some power in some way or another, and the owners aren't punished for owning them. Part of their implied balance is the denial of the safety and security of the ability to dock.
These may be currently treated as status symbols for the wealthy, but they were denied docking ability for a reason.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
772
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:43:37 -
[191] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Part of their implied balance is the denial of the safety and security of the ability to dock.
These may be currently treated as status symbols for the wealthy, but they were denied docking ability for a reason. And alts have completely negated this check on their power. In fact, those same alts help them somewhat mitigate the recent changes to jump mechanics.
Supers are still just as powerful as they have always been. They just can't day trip across the map any more. I feel that adjustments to the ships themselves are needed. As part of that, why not let them dock, and balance their power accordingly. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4422
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:49:32 -
[192] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Part of their implied balance is the denial of the safety and security of the ability to dock.
These may be currently treated as status symbols for the wealthy, but they were denied docking ability for a reason. And alts have completely negated this check on their power. In fact, those same alts help them somewhat mitigate the recent changes to jump mechanics. Supers are still just as powerful as they have always been. They just can't day trip across the map any more. I feel that adjustments to the ships themselves are needed. As part of that, why not let them dock, and balance their power accordingly. How much of a penalty do you think is appropriate, in exchange for their losing that risk aspect of denied docking?
You may say the risk has been negated already, but this convenience / risk change is still going to be significant.
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Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
68
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:58:24 -
[193] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: How much of a penalty do you think is appropriate, in exchange for their losing that risk aspect of denied docking?
You may say the risk has been negated already, but this convenience / risk change is still going to be significant.
How much of a penalty do you think they have now? Compared to a carrier for instance? |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4422
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 23:43:15 -
[194] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: How much of a penalty do you think is appropriate, in exchange for their losing that risk aspect of denied docking?
You may say the risk has been negated already, but this convenience / risk change is still going to be significant.
How much of a penalty do you think they have now? Compared to a carrier for instance?
I believe you made a point about how you feel concerning alts who hold supers offline, so the regular character can do other things while the super is securely untouchable.
Quoting for reference:
Tappits wrote:And will people stop going on about GÇ£LOG OFF ALTSGÇ¥ They are the aids and no respecting alliance allow/donGÇÖt moan about you doing dumb things like thatGǪ only scrubs have holding alts.
I figure that holding alts are an emergent gameplay aspect, rather than one the devs deliberately planned. How well it works, and whether it creates more risk or less for player's supers and titans, I won't debate here.
That said, they clearly exist, and many do use them.
Antillie Sa'Kan believes these alts have effectively negated the risk impact of denied docking rights.
He may be right, I would expect the individual circumstances determine how safe it is.
The number one aspect penalty is, in my opinion, convenience. I see this is manifested in two ways:
1. Can't be used at an outpost for freight movement, or readily available loading of assembled ships to it's hangar. As an additional detail, market purchases always require a second ship to move to the super. 2. Security is less certain, since you are either behind POS shields or not, and bumping happens for various reasons. That, to me, means you can't ignore the client as long as it is online with the ship. Too big of a risk.
Being able to use a super that can dock in an Outpost? A clever pilot can load a lot into that fleet hangar, and SMB, this could rival a freighter under the correct circumstances. Maybe you wouldn't use a super to move things, but it would be possible.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
79
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Posted - 2014.11.21 23:49:44 -
[195] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:Axe Coldon wrote:I would like to see the reverse. Supers should be able to dock in stations! i would like a blowjob from Mila Kunis, but i don`t see either of that happening in the near future You just are not wishing hard enough. Perhaps supers will be able to dock when we get destructible stations. That way when you go away from the game for a month, you can lose absolutely EVERYTHING! OP, your idea is bad because Eve is not real, it is a game. When I leave the game for a few hours or days, I should not have to worry that much about my stuff.
Thats the problem (in my opinion) with supers. They have become a personalized asset, rather than a corp/alliance asset. Im pretty sure CCP's overall idea with them is that they should belong to the alliance (as it should take an alliance-wide effort to produce one). Nowadays, it seems like almost every Titan/Super is a play toy for those that were able get one for themselves.
If the OP's idea comes to pass, it would truly mean that the Titan/Super becomes a corp/alliance asset, as you'd have different people manning it throughout the day, or at least different people in charge of keeping it safe throughout the day.
+1
Cedric
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
79
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Posted - 2014.11.21 23:56:14 -
[196] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: The reason this proposal is so shortsighted:
1.) Supers are NOT Corp / Alliance assets. Pragmatically, whomever is piloting the super is the owner of the super, no matter what effort went into obtaining it. Everything in a POS is a corp asset, as the items within are ALWAYS accessible by various members of a corp. Your proposal would force individuals whom own a super to suddenly share an extremely large-value asset with their corp members. Forcing players to give their high-value personal assets to a corp will cause a LOT of problems!
2.) Other stuff...
I've highlighted what the real problem is. Supers/Titans SHOULD be corp assets. It is a bad thing that individuals own them.
Cedric
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Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
68
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:09:01 -
[197] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:
I've highlighted what the real problem is. Supers/Titans SHOULD be corp assets. It is a bad thing that individuals own them.
There are corps in Eve that the corps themselves funded supers, BDCI in PL for instance has quite a few Titans and supers that were paid for by corp, But you still need personal EvE accounts to fly them.
Old Titans were alot of the time paid for by corps or alliances but as time has gone on single people have been able to accumulate enough isk to buy/ build them solo.
There are people in the game who have more isk than allot of corps. does that mean they should be excluded from a part of the game?
If you really what supers and titans to be less safe but in a change that's actually possible with the current game mechanics would be to force the use of POS passwords on every POS in the game even if its a corp pos, to get in you have to have the password. And you could even make it so to change the password you have to know the password (this makes pos's secure for single people inside corps) and the only way to change the password without knowing the original would be to destroy the pos and put another up.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
773
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:25:46 -
[198] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Being able to use a super that can dock in an Outpost? A clever pilot can load a lot into that fleet hangar, and SMB, this could rival a freighter under the correct circumstances. Maybe you wouldn't use a super to move things, but it would be possible. Given the massive bonus to jump fatigue that all freighters have, I don't think this will be an issues as freighters will still be better in this role due to the speed at which they can cross long distances. |
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