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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1386
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Posted - 2014.06.07 11:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
They go against most turret fitting rules.
They take more grid to fit which means less tank, which is what you need in a close fight.
They have worse hitting ability than HMLs where every other close range turret gets a huge tracking boost (blasters/pulses/autos over rails/beams/artys)
They do some more dps to large targets, usually bigger hulls than you are flying.
they SUCK
HAM love please ccp. The testing phase is over and they are NOT GOOD. also would it hurt to have a few sizes? Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1386
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Posted - 2014.06.07 11:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Also you try fitting hams to any missile ship and see how much fitting is left compared to any close range turret ship.
yeah. not alot to play with.
some ships you fit hams and a mwd and you are basically done. NOT COOL Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
468
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Posted - 2014.06.07 11:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your entire point is voided by the assertion that they are worse at applying damage than HML's. This is unture. They have higher Exp.Velo and lower Exp.Rad.
I'm unsure what point you're trying to make. Right now HAM's are my favourite missile system other than lights. They are just *better* than HML's but with poorer range.
Your argument that they should cost less to fit is perhaps with merit, but Missiles != turrents. That extra fitting buys you better damage application. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1743
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Posted - 2014.06.07 11:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
A fully skilled pilot will have 152 m/s for an explosion velocity and 94m for explosion radius on HAMs. An average cruiser (125 m) will start to speed tank it once it exceeds 202 m/s. MWDing? 1212 m/s. A web is mandatory. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
468
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Posted - 2014.06.07 11:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:A fully skilled pilot will have 152 m/s for an explosion velocity and 94m for explosion radius on HAMs. An average cruiser (125 m) will start to speed tank it once it exceeds 202 m/s. MWDing? 1212 m/s. A web is mandatory.
Also true for turrets to apply full damage at transversal speeds. As range increases, falloff kills damage too. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
277
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Posted - 2014.06.07 13:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
More critically any kind of AB will reduce your applied damage quite considerably, this is also before considering boosters and implants or links.
Missiles are a fleet level weapon system and work best in tangeant with a brawler tackle while you sit on the edge of point range applying EWAR and sometimes quite considerable DPS with flexible damage type.
Consider (for shield tanking fleets) 3x moa w/scram+web each 5x caracal w/ HAMs and painters 2x scythe for reps.
10 people and quite a horrifying amount of dps. LP store weapon cost rebalance |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
249
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Posted - 2014.06.07 13:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
hams are fine. |
Lloyd Roses
613
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Posted - 2014.06.07 14:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
OP has no clue what he's talking about. Good rant.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1126
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Posted - 2014.06.07 18:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Medium ACs suck too I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
473
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Posted - 2014.06.07 19:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Medium ACs suck too
Shots fires :) |
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GreenSeed
1029
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Posted - 2014.06.07 19:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
HAMs are really good, yes they have some fitting constraints, but i can hardly think of any ship crippled by them. the only problem i see is with their T2 ammo, Javelins make you wish you had HMLs (yeah, i know, weird), and Rages will just sit on the hold of your hulls, until one day you decide not to even bother. and since EVE hates you, chances are that day you get a target that could see full application and be worth eating the extra reload cycle. :/
and as mentioned already, the Weapon system is extremely hard to balance, the golden rule of eve is "but what would 50 people do with this?" and missiles have historically been broken specifically on those scenarios. making HAMs any better will just tilt the Doctrine meta on a direction no one likes. IMHO |
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
28
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Posted - 2014.06.07 19:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Like ppl said above, bring webs & paint. They in fact do have longer range than the other high dps turrets. They never miss. No cap & selectable dmg. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1386
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Posted - 2014.06.07 20:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:Like ppl said above, bring webs & paint. They in fact do have longer range than the other high dps turrets. They never miss. No cap & selectable dmg.
i agree.
how often to you carry tps or tcs for you r turrets, oh yeah and theres no te or tc for hams. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1038
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Posted - 2014.06.07 20:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hams are fine, ham caracals, ham orthrus, ham cerb are all absolutely nasty, ham tengu is really strong for pve, ham legion is good for lowsec, ham sacrilege is also pretty fine |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
250
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Posted - 2014.06.07 21:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Medium ACs suck too Shots fires :)
Is true though, medium acs are perhaps the worst damage system in eve right now (just up ther with beams and hmls). |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3309
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Posted - 2014.06.07 23:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yes, HAMs are crap. HMs are crap too.
Both weapons systems should be consolidated into a single medium missile system with meaningful rigging options. Oh god. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
256
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Posted - 2014.06.08 04:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Adriana Nolen wrote:Like ppl said above, bring webs & paint. They in fact do have longer range than the other high dps turrets. They never miss. No cap & selectable dmg. i agree. how often to you carry tps or tcs for you r turrets, oh yeah and theres no te or tc for hams. I can't but notice you left out the web off your list which is what we told you you needed.
To preempt that question how often do I fit a web to my turret ships? Nearly always. |
Marc Durant
8
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Posted - 2014.06.08 10:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Your entire point is voided by the assertion that they are worse at applying damage than HML's. This is untrue. They have higher Exp.Velo and lower Exp.Rad.
I'm unsure what point you're trying to make. Right now HAM's are my favourite missile system other than lights. They are just *better* than HML's but with poorer range.
Your argument that they should cost less to fit is perhaps with merit, but Missiles != turrets. That extra fitting buys you better damage application.
Underlined for importance.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6866
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Posted - 2014.06.08 10:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Missiles have problems, but HAMs are one of the better missile launcher types, not one of the worst. Especially on bonused hulls like the Sacrilege. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Bronson Hughes
22
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Posted - 2014.06.08 17:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
While I do agree with the OP's observation that launchers are generally bass-ackwards in terms of fitting, consider this:
1. HAMs may have less damage than close-range turrets, but they do that damage uniformly from zero out to max range. No turret can say that. (Large engagement envelope)
2. Your own movement impacts the damage application of guns, but not for missiles. (Freedom of movement)
3. Simple damage type selection = exploit those resist holes.
Combine 1&2 and you see why HAMs are so good for kiting fits: uniform damage application over a relatively long range (especially on on bonused hulls) and no damage reduction due to your own movement. But since they don't do more damage at close range like turrets, they're not as well suited for brawling fits.
There are some issues with missiles in general, but relative to the other missiles HAMs are pretty much fine.
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Missiles are a fleet level weapon system and work best in tangeant with a brawler tackle while you sit on the edge of point range applying EWAR and sometimes quite considerable DPS with flexible damage type.
Consider (for shield tanking fleets) 3x moa w/scram+web each 5x caracal w/ HAMs and painters 2x scythe for reps.
10 people and quite a horrifying amount of dps.
This. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I don't avoid getting shot, but I do generally avoid getting shot first. |
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Praxis Ginimic
Whine T3ar Brewery
799
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Posted - 2014.06.09 04:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Use a couple rigors & a faction scram, go to null where every one is in a mwd hac or cruiser and crush them from just outside of web range |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 08:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Medium ACs suck too Shots fires :) Is true though, medium acs are perhaps the worst damage system in eve right now (just up ther with beams and hmls).
Beams are phenomenal right now. Haven't you tried them since the changes? |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 08:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Praxis Ginimic wrote:Use a couple rigors & a faction scram, go to null where every one is in a mwd hac or cruiser and crush them from just outside of web range
J/K blobbed. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
HAMs are fine when nobody has skirmish links, it's when you add them in that they become horrible. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1403
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:A fully skilled pilot will have 152 m/s for an explosion velocity and 94m for explosion radius on HAMs. An average cruiser (125 m) will start to speed tank it once it exceeds 202 m/s. MWDing? 1212 m/s. A web is mandatory.
The MWD sig bloom will cancel a lot of that. That is the reason why AB speed tanks better than MWD. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1403
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:HAMs are fine when nobody has skirmish links, it's when you add them in that they become horrible.
Not at all. Hams still hit as well as turrets on a transversal path. Damage reduction is not somethign bad in game. It is good because make combat against larger number of ships possible.
JUst stop being lazy and bring a target painter in your fleet. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
218
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Medium ACs suck too Shots fires :) Is true though, medium acs are perhaps the worst damage system in eve right now (just up ther with beams and hmls). Beams are phenomenal right now. Haven't you tried them since the changes?
Uhm no, beams are ****.
Medium beams - Oh wait, the Ishtar exists. It only has double the DPS, double the tracking, and 15km more range with one range mod and 3 damage mods than a beam Zealot or Legion has with 3 range mods and 3 damage mods. Said Ishtar can also do close range combat on the same fit simply by switching to Gardes, that Zealot or Legion is completely useless close up.
Large beams - Due to fitting costs and slot layout on Amarr ships (Read: Not 8 lows like the stupidly overpowered Megathron) you essentially have 3 less fitting slots than the Megathron on the Apoc, and two less on the Abaddon. Abaddon also has gigantic sig and gets obliterated by bombers. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
247
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:A fully skilled pilot will have 152 m/s for an explosion velocity and 94m for explosion radius on HAMs. An average cruiser (125 m) will start to speed tank it once it exceeds 202 m/s. MWDing? 1212 m/s. A web is mandatory. The MWD sig bloom will cancel a lot of that. That is the reason why AB speed tanks better than MWD.
I think 1212m/s marks the point where speed outdoes the mwd sig bloom and the cruiser begins speed tanking the HAM.
HAM as a solo ship weapon is no good. Although it somewhat works vs cruiser size ships, when going aginst frigs, you'll need either drones or neuts in addition to web. Note that HAM's are also slower than other missiles, so many mwd'ing frigs will be able to just outrun it.
As a gang weapon however I see merit in them.
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
530
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Posted - 2014.06.09 14:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
I have to agree, I hate HAM these days. So expensive for water flavoured trash and the supermarkets are all like 'totally legit ham dude'. I used to live on a pig farm and I can tell you, proper ham does not taste like that :D
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