Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Grivan
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 15:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
tl;dr. EVE is considered to be the toughest game out there, the hardest to learn and even harder to master; 'spreadsheets in space' they call it. The players take pride in being older, maturer and arguable more intelligent, and yet, when a forum post is more than 10 sentences their brains melt and they demand a 'tl;dr'. Be warned, this post is asking you to think a little bit and consider possibilities and solutions, not problems.
Firstly I'd just like to clarify terms a bit, this post is about ambulation (moving around and interacting as an avatar), while Walking in Stations (WiS) is part of that, this is not exclusively about making a case for WiS. The reason why I'm making yet another thread on this topic is because I believe the whole discussion into ambulation has become bogged down in rehashing the same ideas and arguments and in some stand out negative events (incarna, golden ammo and WoD) GÇô which means that in every thread there are variants of GÇ£WiS is deadGÇ¥, GÇ£it would ruin EVEGÇ¥, GÇ£it won't workGÇ¥, GÇ£it would add nothingGÇ¥ and GÇ£it has no gameplayGÇ¥.
Before we jump straight to those conclusions I'd like to make a quick case for being open minded around ambulation in EVE. If we assume (rightly or wrongly) that Pay to Win microtransactions won't become the norm and that (as I feel is vitally important) no ambulation based features devalue or remove features currently part of the FiS package then we are left with the two major problems: amount of effort being used to create space barbies (with no gameplay value) and the lack of any gameplay value. Legion deals with the former and old fashioned creativity with the latter.
Legion GÇô a PC based, PvP shooter set in New Eden using stations and indoor environments would require those art assets. If whatever technology is used to create that engine (Unreal 4?) is then used to re-do EVE's ambulation technology then it would simply be a case of importing the same art assets? My point being that, for Legion to exist, there is surely going to be a lot of art that EVE can use (or collaborate on) which reduces the development time significantly. Plus a lot of the technology for the actual transitions has already been created for Incarna.
So we just need content. Something worthwhile, new and different for New Eden pilots to do outside of their ship which makes the effort in creating a uniform ambulation technology and environment for both Legion and EVE worthwhile. However, as no ambulation features should devalue or remove FiS features, neither should EVE features devalue or remove Legion features GÇô that would mean that EVE pilots do not run around with guns.
I'm going to use two examples. One for pilots directly interacting with the environment (and Legion) and another involving more indirect interaction. First up, exploration:
Keep existing exploration the same (no devaluing), this area of exploration could be around stargate technology, or new T3's, or literally anything. New exploration ships have 1-3 clone vats which Legion mercs can jump into, you dock up with a likely looking facility and you and your new friends go looking for the loot; there can be different objectives: Hack a network, requiring you to stay in one place and download information To make it more difficult, sometimes you may need to power it up first Collect hardware as fast as possible and get out as fast as possible Variations can include amount of information/hardware needed, whether you know where to go, etc.
And of course, different challenges: Rogue drones Automated defence systems Other players Self destructs Your own mercs shooting and teabagging your corpse
You'd be the team leader, directing your squad, but unarmed, while your mercs protect you. It could be a bit like a horror survival - epic lighting, sense of helplessness, disorientation, fast paced - and of course, death is death.
The second idea I have (and I'm sure there are plenty of others) is locking down/accessing station storage when a system changes hands. Simply put, when a system and station change hands, the owners of the system wipe the access codes to their hangars, which takes 5 minutes. Once that is done, no one except the owners (on reclaiming the station) can access the material. The conquering alliance needs to send in mercs to seize the control room within 5 minutes, the defenders can of course field their own mercs. This idea is less about direct ambulation for EVE players, but building a meaningful link between EVE and Legion (and creating a lot of station interior art!)
I'm not putting those two ideas out as the best, or essential ideas for EVE and Legion. I'm using them as examples of how gameplay can interact between the two games, using ambulation which generates a new career or playstyle for EVE players (without devaluing or removing gameplay from existing FiS or standard Legion features). If the game ships with 2-3+ of these links then it becomes much easier to justify the creation of WiS features as much of the art and tech would have been developed for the gameplay features.
The final, most common, argument against all of this is GÇ£EVE is a spaceship gameGÇ¥. Which is, frankly, the worst argument out there. EVE is a spaceship game because all the existing features take place in a spaceship (except some elements of trading, industry, PI, espionage and politics) GÇô NOT because EVE is a spaceship game, there is a difference. If a new feature comes out, which involves you walking around somewhere and doing something meaningful, which suits the ambulation model, fits into the world and principles of New Eden, then it is a good feature. Defending the status quo because it is the status quo is the fastest way to stagnation GÇô however, I am not advocating ambulation blindly, I do think it needs to fit into EVE GÇô and the development of Legion is the perfect (and possibly only) time to do it properly.
|
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 15:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Coward hiding behind a faceless npc alt. EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes Spaceship Samurai
837
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 15:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
hahahaha
Like I'm going to read all that |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2882
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 15:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solitaire Project wrote:Coward hiding behind a faceless npc alt.
Pretty much. Who the hell keeps a faceless alt for so many years, except to come post things they are afraid will earn them some sort of backlash? "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 15:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Karen Avioras wrote:hahahaha Like I'm going to read all that I know right? I didn't either.
What's the point doing it anyway. It's just the usual drivel of the worlds best game designer, who happens to be a coward too. EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Solitaire Project wrote:Coward hiding behind a faceless npc alt. Pretty much. Who the hell keeps a faceless alt for so many years, except to come post things they are afraid will earn them some sort of backlash? *shrugs*
Hey, have you seen the legwear I've made? :D EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6877
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Isn't this a repost? Nevermind that even mentioning WiS should merit a thread lock. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Isn't this a repost? Nevermind that even mentioning WiS should merit a thread lock. I wonder how long it takes until someone posts who has actually read it. EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
I actually like looking at my portrait.
I feel really pretty with this one! :D EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6877
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Solitaire Project wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Isn't this a repost? Nevermind that even mentioning WiS should merit a thread lock. I wonder how long it takes until someone posts who has actually read it.
I did read it. Which is why I mentioned that I think I saw a thread very much like this get locked the other day. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
|
Brendan Anneto
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
24
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
TL;DR I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.-á-á Proverbs 1:26-27 |
Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
57
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Verily thou art brave, good sir, to venture into this most foul den of evil known as the "General Discussion". Even if thou art most well prepared, know that many noble knights walked thine path before. Alas! The cave trolls feast on their flesh.
I pity thee, good sir, but yet applaud thy audacity.
IBTL. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2883
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Solitaire Project wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Solitaire Project wrote:Coward hiding behind a faceless npc alt. Pretty much. Who the hell keeps a faceless alt for so many years, except to come post things they are afraid will earn them some sort of backlash? *shrugs* Hey, have you seen the legwear I've made? :D
I have indeed. I'm hoping CCP will get with it and fix their 'dresses' already. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5026
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
There is no need to read something when its clearly in the wrong section of the forums
So don't call others out on being lazy minded when you are obviously unable to grasp the purpose of the Ideas & Features section "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
Mana Shian
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
10
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
A well thought out and interesting read. Thank you for taking the time to write something like this up.
Regardless, it belongs in F&I. |
Komi Toran
Perkone Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Grivan wrote:The players take pride in being older, maturer and arguable more intelligent, and yet, when a forum post is more than 10 sentences their brains melt and they demand a 'tl;dr'. Our brains don't melt. The ability to briefly describe an idea in a TL;DR does two things:
-First, it allows the reader to judge whether he would be interested enough in the topic to invest his time in reading your dissertation. -Second, it demonstrates that you have the clarity of vision to crystalize your idea into a singular concept.
As I have do not have the time to invest in figuring out whether your idea is interesting or not, and as you have failed to demonstrate a clarity of vision, I DR.
|
Grivan
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mana Shian wrote:A well thought out and interesting read. Thank you for taking the time to write something like this up.
Regardless, it belongs in F&I.
I suppose it depends on the scope of 'ideas' in the definition - technically 95% of posts are 'ideas' and could fall under some definition of that forum; I felt this discussion lay more around the overall direction of the game and belonged better in a general discussion - however ISD are free to intervene as they please.
Besides, everyone know the real distinction between a general discussion and F+I thread is popularity. Take the thread about long dresses which is clearly more F+I than this thread, so should be moved and according to one poster here, as it discusses WiS content it should be auto locked. But there we go. |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Grivan wrote:The players take pride in being older, maturer and arguable more intelligent, and yet, when a forum post is more than 10 sentences their brains melt and they demand a 'tl;dr'. This is quite ironic.
It's obviously "mature" nowadays to hide behind faceless npc alts. He probably believes it's intelligent, too. That would make obvious sense in his mind.
Cowards think that way.
Also I believe you're under drug influence. EVE ONLNE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5026
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grivan wrote:Mana Shian wrote:A well thought out and interesting read. Thank you for taking the time to write something like this up.
Regardless, it belongs in F&I. I suppose it depends on the scope of 'ideas' in the definition - technically 95% of posts are 'ideas' and could fall under some definition of that forum; I felt this discussion lay more around the overall direction of the game and belonged better in a general discussion - however ISD are free to intervene as they please. Besides, everyone know the real distinction between a general discussion and F+I thread is popularity. Take the thread about long dresses which is clearly more F+I than this thread, so should be moved and according to one poster here, as it discusses WiS content it should be auto locked. But there we go.
OMG is it impossible for you to simply accept you are wrong and not give a ridiculous windy nonsensical arugment about how you are right and all of us as well as the forum moderators are wrong? "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
849
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grivan wrote:Your own mercs shooting and teabagging your corpse
You'd be the team leader, directing your squad, but unarmed, while your mercs protect you. It could be a bit like a horror survival - epic lighting, sense of helplessness, disorientation, fast paced - and of course, death is death.
Just worked out i hate those teabagging LOLIPWNJOO shooter kids. Oh and experts in the field of game development who infest forums. If you had a good idea, i mean a real one, you'd realise it. Your post is to game design what mumbling in your sleep is to being a rock star.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
|
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1976
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 16:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
@OP: I think the most important point you are making is, that walking around in your human avatars should have meaningful gameplay which fits into EVE and adds to it, but isn't required unless you are interested in doing it. And that's pretty tough, imo.
I like the exploration example, but I am not sure how much fun it'd be to act as weaponless leader of Legion players. What special qualities would the capsuleer have as leader that makes up for the lack of weapons and can't be done by the Legion players and still is fun? It'd probably make more sense if you could just "jump into Legion gameplay" once you arrived at your exploration site. I suppose that'd be quite the technological challenge, though.
Another possibility I was thinking about was some sort of black market and smuggling gameplay on stations. Something illegal which should not be done using the galnet and "official" channels but rather in person and hidden. But here I got stuck, to be honest. What would the gameplay be? Some sort of puzzle game dodging surveillance until a meet up with either NPC or other players as trading partner can happen? I kinda doubt most players would like this.
Here, too, I think the best chance, even if it may be quite a bit in the future, for something like this to happen would be a seamless integration of Legion gameplay, so it'd actually be a shooter gameplay, maybe with emphasis on tactics.
And all this doesn't mean that you can't have areas simply for social interaction, with nothing to gain gameplay-wise which would legitimate making it safe, according to the risk/reward thing: Don't allow any weapons in those areas. Brawling could be allowed but bouncers (from CONCORD, haha. ... just kidding) will come and throw you out if you attack someone who doesn't fight back or something like that. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
550
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jade Blackwind wrote:Edit: Actually, I've read the entirety of this post. *Sighs heavily* You know, OP, that your thread will be trolled to hell and back and then locked, what do you wish to achieve by it? To spark an intelligent discussion on the merits of WiS?
Sadly, having intelligent discussion at all would be take an act of god. Seriously, have you read what gets posted around here? These guys howl and wail at sunset because the sky changed, and then hide in their caves and shitpost on the walls about what an ******* God is for having changed something, and now they can't farm antelope meat drops without getting ganked by sabertooth tigers because of this 'darkness' feature.
You'll get trolled here no matter what feature you propose, but WiS in particular. Usually from the same people who are hot to propose that high sec be eliminated and all the people in it have their isk deleted and be herded into lowsec in their pods for easy kills. Which is actually a much worse idea, but you'd be surprised how many endorse it.
|
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
597
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
I have replied on a lot of these threads. And the biggest issue with them is that most people who are anti WiS are so because they forgot history.
So small reminder: When incarnia came out, you had the workings of a **** storm. The pot was already boiling, and just waiting to explode and boil over. If one of the following had happened on its own, it would of been ok. the fact that all happened at the same time, caused the explosion, most of all was the last piece, which was the icing on the cake.
1) The incarnia we got, was no where close tot he ambulation they had been working on for 5 years (i remember presentations as far back as 06, and they had a whole panel at fan fest 07) what we got felt like a waste of resources. And it was too buggy (cards melting) If it was just this, players would of shrugged it off.
2) Incarnia had no meaningful in anyway game play. You were stuck in a room. if it was just this, we would of been like 'well yet another dead feature'
3) you could not turn it off. This annoyed a lot of people.
4) The NeX, again if alone would not of been a big deal.
5) All the crap in the NeX store was expensive.
6) Monicals that cost $70
7) Old systems in eve had had been left to roit.
8) and finally... the icing on the cake... "Greed is Good" memo leak.
A few of these and the players would of shrugged it off. Hell if we had the ability to turn OFF CQ form the start, you prolly would of seen less riots. But that's not what happened. Everything combined showed players that not only did ccp waste development time, resources, to make something that was not optional, and really added nothing at all to eve, but the vision they wanted was not the path we wanted.
CCP learned for this mistake, and are doing way better in terms of goals. People lost there jobs, WoD got canned, and the last idea of this crappy era, Dust 514 (blotched roll out) is being corrected. WiS NEEDS to be addressed eventually. Its now CCP's old track record. Half assed thought out idea, that is 1/10 of what we were promised, then left to roit while they moved on to shines.
It will need to be finished, eventually. But it needs to be meaningful. And ATM, the best way will be when EvE Unity happens. WiS can be the link that combines Legion, EvE, and Valk. and can open many new game play elements, if people so chose to use them. But imo, you will not see anything done with WiS UNTIL things like pos' corps and alliances, and sov are corrected. Until then, WiS will remain the black sheep feature of eve that no one really wants. We all want WiS, but we want the space part to be good, and WiS to have meaning. If it has meaning, people will accept and embrace it. till then... these threads are pointless. 10 years of eve... yea i'm an addict |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
912
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Grivan wrote: The players take pride in being older, maturer and arguable more intelligent, and yet, when a forum post is more than 10 sentences their brains melt and they demand a 'tl;dr'. Be warned, this post is asking you to think a little bit and consider possibilities and solutions, not problems.
...he said, before laying out a dozen paragraphs of the same tired **** that people have been saying about the subject for years, now.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Grivan
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:@OP: I think the most important point you are making is, that walking around in your human avatars should have meaningful gameplay which fits into EVE and adds to it, but isn't required unless you are interested in doing it. And that's pretty tough, imo.
I like the exploration example, but I am not sure how much fun it'd be to act as weaponless leader of Legion players. What special qualities would the capsuleer have as leader that makes up for the lack of weapons and can't be done by the Legion players and still is fun? It'd probably make more sense if you could just "jump into Legion gameplay" once you arrived at your exploration site. I suppose that'd be quite the technological challenge, though.
Another possibility I was thinking about was some sort of black market and smuggling gameplay on stations. Something illegal which should not be done using the galnet and "official" channels but rather in person and hidden. But here I got stuck, to be honest. What would the gameplay be? Some sort of puzzle game dodging surveillance until a meet up with either NPC or other players as trading partner can happen? I kinda doubt most players would like this.
Here, too, I think the best chance, even if it may be quite a bit in the future, for something like this to happen would be a seamless integration of Legion gameplay, so it'd actually be a shooter gameplay, maybe with emphasis on tactics.
And all this doesn't mean that you can't have areas simply for social interaction, with nothing to gain gameplay-wise which would legitimate making it safe, according to the risk/reward thing: Don't allow any weapons in those areas. Brawling could be allowed but bouncers (from CONCORD, haha. ... just kidding) will come and throw you out if you attack someone who doesn't fight back or something like that.
DaReaper wrote: [snip] till then... these threads are pointless.
The other main point of my thread is that this kind of work should happen now, while Legion is in development, and is why I think the thread isn't pointless. That link has to be built in from the ground up, with a clear plan of how EVE is going to use ambulation and how the two games will integrate.
Riyria you raise a good point about how a lot of the meaningful gameplay should be part of Legion with a seamless transition from one game to the next - I wonder how technically challenging that is? We can already transition from pod to CQ, if it's all on the same server and built to do so from the ground up, is it any different?
It's not just people forgetting history that makes them anti-WiS, its because its an easy troll target and because people tend to see problems and then decide it can't be done, instead of looking at solutions. Look at the first page of this thread and you'll see those same names in every thread trolling or making inane comments - I do have faith that there are people reading these forums who are capable of thought outside their own little bubble and it'd be great if something positive comes out of this.
I'm not pretending to know anything about game design, but the principles of this kind of project are the same everywhere you go. Work out what you want it to do in the end and then design for that goal throughout - if ambulation isn't put into EVE alongside Legion then it will be a (potential) nightmare porting it in once Legion is complete.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6882
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Sadly, having intelligent discussion at all would be take an act of god. Seriously, have you read what gets posted around here? These guys howl and wail at sunset because the sky changed, and then hide in their caves and shitpost on the walls about what an ******* God is for having changed something, and now they can't farm antelope meat drops without getting ganked by sabertooth tigers because of this 'darkness' feature.
You'll get trolled here no matter what feature you propose, but WiS in particular. Usually from the same people who are hot to propose that high sec be eliminated and all the people in it have their isk deleted and be herded into lowsec in their pods for easy kills. Which is actually a much worse idea, but you'd be surprised how many endorse it.
This is an impressive act. I actually think there might be a logical fallacy or mischaracterization in every sentence of this post.
Congrats, you are the new Infinity Ziona. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5030
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Another prime example of "If people dont think exactly like me and accept my repeated, redundant thread, they are trolls and bad"
Reported for trolling
Please close this thread "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
Solitaire Project
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
This would have went completely different if he wouldn't be such a coward. EVE ONLINE: Legwear! http://imgur.com/a/ns5E5 |
Marsha Mallow
974
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
If you want to have a discussion about potential Legion gameplay on GD, there's really no need to even refer to Ambulation or WiS. It's just starting an argument for the sake of it.
Attacking the tone of the other forum posters doesn't exactly help either, how exactly are you going to have a productive discussion after you litter your OP with snide remarks. Go learn how to communicate with a modicum of civility and you might find it reciprocated.
TL;DR Ban WiSers from GD. TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5032
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 17:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote: Attacking the tone of the other forum posters doesn't exactly help either, how exactly are you going to have a productive discussion after you litter your OP with snide remarks. Go learn how to communicate with a modicum of civility and you might find it reciprocated.
Exactly this
You cannot expect people to want to have a civil debate on the merits of your proposal if you are going to name-call anyone who you think will disagree "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |