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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6931
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 20:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
So, after getting my internet access back (which required a brand new router, thank you very much to my cat), I reread this proposal. And I think I figured out what bugs me about this.
It tries to fix things that aren't problems. And it uses personal bias as the basis for doing those things.
"...a cancer to the game"? For wanting to shoot spaceships? Please. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Alundil
Rolled Out
543
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 21:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote: So, if I did read it correctly then when you dec a corp for a ship type, you can freely attack ships of that type and larger. Is this correct?
That reminds me of MMO's where you had level based PvP ... and it was HORRIBLE! Anyways thoughtful post Manola, but your time would have been better served on finding solutions to the lack of PvP in Nullsec and not trying to turn carebears into PvPers with twisted game mechanics that will take ages to code and only confuse the vast majority of players.
Perhaps this (Features & Ideas) is the most appropriate place for ideas that involve any coding changes at all, complex or otherwise? Hmmm. I think it might be.
As for other suggestions about increasing combat in 00 - that's tied into existing Dominion Sov mechanics (crap - though better than the old "POS everywhere system" and the craptacular structure grind compounded with near instantaneous travel (which I'm pretty sure Marlona has offered suggestions about as well).
As for your "carebears into PvPers" comment, it's pretty well documented that many people will put up a hellish fight when their "stuff" is actually threatened. Perhaps this proposed mechanic lays the groundwork for further iteration work on making wars meaningful. Then it's not "carebears into PvPers" but rather "pilots choosing to fight for fruits of their labors instead of moving/leaving/going on hiatus/quitting/etc). Some improvement in that regard would certainly be preferable to zero improvement.
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Alundil
Rolled Out
543
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Posted - 2014.06.10 22:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, after getting my internet access back (which required a brand new router, thank you very much to my cat), I reread this proposal. And I think I figured out what bugs me about this.
It tries to fix things that aren't problems. And it uses personal bias as the basis for doing those things.
"...a cancer to the game"? For wanting to shoot spaceships? Please. I guess congrats for missing the point is in order.....
Congrats. http://i.imgur.com/QoidJdO.gif
**secretly hopes cat/router attack happens again**
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Alundil
Rolled Out
543
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Posted - 2014.06.10 23:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Alundil wrote:but it also provides an opportunity for the defender to potentially play the "Lilliputians" to the attacker "Gulliver" by undocking in smaller ship classes and swarming the attacker's larger hulls. the proposal allows the noobs to hit first if they are using smaller ships. But if the noobs have the abiltiy to swarm their opponents, why do they need this mechanic particularly? the current mechanic allows for just as much swarming, it just doesnt allow u to sit in space for as long before u strike. yeah i like the stacking bounties. Currently there is literally NO reason for them to even attempt to do so because "gudfights" are not what they're into. So the stacking of bounties, in addition to the restrictions on "neutral" logi/boosts/etc provide some assurance that 1) there's potential value in fighting back and 2) that they'll have some reasonable idea of what they might be facing.
As for conditions to be met to end the dec early, I agree that this is probably what they want as well. Wars not of your choosing are inconvenient, there's no denying it. However, I'm not sure adding more structure grinding is a good way of doing so since structure grinding is a soul crushing activity and we want people to continue playing EVE after all.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6943
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 23:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, after getting my internet access back (which required a brand new router, thank you very much to my cat), I reread this proposal. And I think I figured out what bugs me about this.
It tries to fix things that aren't problems. And it uses personal bias as the basis for doing those things.
"...a cancer to the game"? For wanting to shoot spaceships? Please. I guess congrats for missing the point is in order.....
Then, by all means, educate me as to what "the point" is supposed to be. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5301
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 04:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, after getting my internet access back (which required a brand new router, thank you very much to my cat), I reread this proposal. And I think I figured out what bugs me about this.
It tries to fix things that aren't problems. And it uses personal bias as the basis for doing those things.
"...a cancer to the game"? For wanting to shoot spaceships? Please. I guess congrats for missing the point is in order..... Congrats. http://i.imgur.com/QoidJdO.gif**secretly hopes cat/router attack happens again** I'm stealing that gif. The Paradox |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 06:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
I have a question.
Is suicide ganking of bears/indies/noobs in high sec not already sufficient enough to scrap the non-consensual war-dec system?
(And by non-consensual i don't mean mutual war only, i mean in a way of putting your corp in a position where you allow people to war-dec you at any time by choice.)
The biggest problem I see with the current war-dec mechanics is that, with the exception of RvB, the tendency is to avoid fights... They should just rename the system to "Gank Declaration" as it stands now. There is really no "War" occurring.
Daichi Yamato wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:Currently the reasons to war dec are: Grief an indy/bear/noob corp Easy safe PVP on your own terms. Gank for profit u say that as if its a bad thing. u go on to say we should fight over resources, how is that not ganking for profit? i pay ppl to war dec miners who operate in the same area as me. thats fighting over resources so i make more money. isnt that ganking for profit? I'm not saying ganking for profit is bad in and of itself. What I'm saying is that I don't believe it's a good driving force for War Decs. What my goal is for "fighting over resources" is to get people to actively engage each other. They should have a certain amount of fighting back, and defenders hiring mercs should have a certain level of effect beyond just changing the tide of who doesn't undock.
Suicide ganking will still be and should always be an option. Though it may need a bit more consequence than a direct isk loss vs kill profit where high sec becomes low sec at a certain isk/ehp level. A revamp of security level should help with that a lot though ;) |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2917
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 06:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
This is a fantastic idea. Baiting wardecs for free isk will be fantastic; everyone should learn to scam early and often in EVE. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Nikaroo
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
5
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 07:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
This was meant as personal Feedback to Marlonas article on eve news; and does not consider any replies that point already in this direction. But Marlona asked me to post this and I like to do him this favor since he invested a lot of time and thoughts in what he wrote. Thanks again Marlona! Here we go:
Hy Marlona!
I read your article about the war mechanics on eve news yesterday. First: Thanks a lot for diving into it and bringing all those ideas to pixels GÇô there is a lot of work in it. I really dislike the comments section therefor I decided to write you a short feedback with some thoughts in game.
Yes, I am one of those dudes who does hi sec war a lot. I was part of the orphanage, whores in space and now I fly with marmite. I totally agree on the iteration and I think there are definitely things that could be adjusted and optimized. I wonGÇÖt address every point you wrote and IGÇÖll try to keep it as brief as possible.
The possibility to be able to dec one person, ship classes and areas goes to far from my point of view due to server capabilities and there is one aspect you did not touch: Alts. You definitely need those if you want to do the war thing since if people are aware of the mechanics you have absolutely no chance to get a single kill in hi sec. Alts means doing a lot of standings and if you are part of a ally with usually more than 100 wars you set standings, standings and standings. That would go even further if you have the one person or the ship and area thing.
What would help me a lot with this is the possibility to export standings or auto add them to my alts. Like select corp or ally, auto update wars as contacts with a certain standing level. In average it would save me half a hour a day and it would be nice to be able to do that as corp and/or toon standing.
What I totally agree on is the bad wording of the GÇPwar has finishedGÇ£-notification and to protect people even more you could add a pop up when they undock if at war like the message you get when you still have a limited engagement from a suspect interaction or a duel.
Compared to your graphs and thoughts I admit mine are rather simple.
The npc part is a delicate aspect since I think there should be places where you canGÇÖt get wardecced. Also being able to dec npc players means you could add a lot more griefing to people who simply got into the game and decided to convert that plex into a purple fitted navy raven: simply pick the dudes with the shiny things and drop a dec. It wouldnGÇÖt matter how old a player is and I think this mechanic could be used in another direction you were aiming for.
To split newer players form older players or 0.0 ally alts you could add something with the concept of the rookie-channel. For example if a player is younger than certain days you canGÇÖt drop a war on him or a player older than X days simply canGÇÖt be in a npc corp anymore. This would also solve the complexity a 1-toon dec would add to the server and the standing thing.
ThatGÇÖs it. My humble few cents and thanks again for your post and all the time you invested in it. Hit me up anytime if you like to chat about it or if you have some further questions.
Yours,
Nik |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5301
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 07:55:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nikaroo wrote:The possibility to be able to dec one person, ship classes and areas goes to far from my point of view due to server capabilities and there is one aspect you did not touch: Alts. You definitely need those if you want to do the war thing since if people are aware of the mechanics you have absolutely no chance to get a single kill in hi sec. Alts means doing a lot of standings and if you are part of a ally with usually more than 100 wars you set standings, standings and standings. That would go even further if you have the one person or the ship and area thing.
What would help me a lot with this is the possibility to export standings or auto add them to my alts. Like select corp or ally, auto update wars as contacts with a certain standing level. In average it would save me half a hour a day and it would be nice to be able to do that as corp and/or toon standing. I have no objection for an explore/import option for standings. I will say I am not a huge fan of alts that are not directly involved in a conflict. A free set of eyes that are never in harms way gathering intel. I would prefer it be a character who is actually at war/conflict with the targets he is hunting gathering this intel. Now if there is things keeping this from becoming a preferred method, then we need to look into it and address it.
Nikaroo wrote:The npc part is a delicate aspect since I think there should be places where you canGÇÖt get wardecced. Also being able to dec npc players means you could add a lot more griefing to people who simply got into the game and decided to convert that plex into a purple fitted navy raven: simply pick the dudes with the shiny things and drop a dec. It wouldnGÇÖt matter how old a player is and I think this mechanic could be used in another direction you were aiming for.
To split newer players form older players or 0.0 ally alts you could add something with the concept of the rookie-channel. For example if a player is younger than certain days you canGÇÖt drop a war on him or a player older than X days simply canGÇÖt be in a npc corp anymore. This would also solve the complexity a 1-toon dec would add to the server and the standing thing. The NPC is only for capital ships. So if they are in a battleship or smaller, it will function exactly they way it is now. New players are not immediately undocking with freighters, let alone having the ISK to buy one. Sure there is the rare case of a new player scamming someone for a ton of ISK or a friend gifting them a lot, but again - they are not starting in a capital ship. Even if later down the line they want to do transport things, there is always the existing haulers that can do the job if using a freighter is not an option. A player could use haulers to move the goods out of the market hub where the war dec on capital ships is. Then once it is all moved, pack it up into the freighter and be on their way. So they have options to work around it easily.
The pilots that will most likely feel the pinch the most will be null alliances who rely on freighter alts in NPC to bypass war decs. Again they will have options too.
I feel the sooner pilots are exposed to war decs when they start the game, the more likely they are to learn from it and stay. This all depends on how it is implemented. Currently the way they are exposed is being completely cut off from empire space and unable to field any ship without being obliterated by 50 guys in faction fitted ownzone mobiles with twice as many alts in tow to provide RR and bonuses. Where is the room to actually learn anything?
Now with this system they are not completely locked out* and have options to mitigate the war dec and even funding to even the odds a little bit. The more restrictions an aggressor puts on the new player, the more money they will be banking. Sure they may drop some blockade on you for a region all the way to frigates, but you can easily go to other parts of empire space and collect a nice check from the attackers. Maybe hire some mercs or buy some combat ships to teach them a lesson.
*It is still possible to war dec all of empire space for all ship classes with this system, but is also the most expensive way to war dec The Paradox |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5301
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 07:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:I have a question. Is suicide ganking of bears/indies/noobs in high sec not already sufficient enough to scrap the non-consensual war-dec system? (And by non-consensual i don't mean mutual war only, i mean in a way of putting your corp in a position where you allow people to war-dec you at any time by choice.) The biggest problem I see with the current war-dec mechanics is that, with the exception of RvB, the tendency is to avoid fights... They should just rename the system to "Gank Declaration" as it stands now. There is really no "War" occurring. Daichi Yamato wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:Currently the reasons to war dec are: Grief an indy/bear/noob corp Easy safe PVP on your own terms. Gank for profit u say that as if its a bad thing. u go on to say we should fight over resources, how is that not ganking for profit? i pay ppl to war dec miners who operate in the same area as me. thats fighting over resources so i make more money. isnt that ganking for profit? I'm not saying ganking for profit is bad in and of itself. What I'm saying is that I don't believe it's a good driving force for War Decs. What my goal is for "fighting over resources" is to get people to actively engage each other. They should have a certain amount of fighting back, and defenders hiring mercs should have a certain level of effect beyond just changing the tide of who doesn't undock. Suicide ganking will still be and should always be an option. Though it may need a bit more consequence than a direct isk loss vs kill profit where high sec becomes low sec at a certain isk/ehp level. A revamp of security level should help with that a lot though ;) Fighting over mission agents could be one. Maybe a percentage of the mission reward goes towards the group who controls the agent? Just off the top of my head. The Paradox |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5301
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 08:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:one of my earliest losses was someone jumping on my mining vexor with an armageddon, in a war dec. After that i was in an alliance that got decced and i lost ships there too. Then i was in another corp, that got decced too. Then i went to nullsec and pretty much became a null bear. Lost ships there too (to afk cloakers would u believe, now check my stance on that!). Then i was in another corp that got decced. Then another alliance that got decced and so on until i was actually given some responsibility over others because i'd gathered some experience (in losing ships). That was around the time of salvage bucket, where i stopped losing so many ships and started getting kills. Not once have i complained about decs, if anything a few year back i was advocating a way for scram to prevent docking to stop aggressors from bailing when we stepped up.
I am the guy that got decced early on, ive actually never had a char in RvB, eve uni etc, i did lose many ships. But the only times ive unsubbed from this game have been for technical reasons.
here i am 4 years later, i have one char permanently in FW, another char in a leadership role of a fairly nooby indi corp that i try to take out on low sec roams whenever possible. I also try and get them to participate in war decs even when we get our arses handed to us (cheers failed), we are also talking of having a PvP corp separate from the indy corp. I have another char who goes round and chews up ppl's POS's and POCO's for my friends when they ask and i also pay gankers to pew for me.
TL:DR (well not really, but the point is...) Everyone, even pros and vets years into the game will get into fights they cannot win, they will screw up, they will lose ships. the trick is to pick urself up and learn from it. If ur the type of player who leaves the game because u got decced and lost a few ships, u probably wouldnt like EVE anyways. I think the sooner new players experience reasonable PvP, the more likely they are to learn and adapt and most of all; stay subbed to the game. It seemed like because you were decced early on, you just accepted it as part of the game. Kind of like playing a FPS game and being shot at in the first match. It is what the game is.
Your thoughts on that? The Paradox |
Nikaroo
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 08:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:[quote=Nikaroo]I feel the sooner pilots are exposed to war decs when they start the game, the more likely they are to learn from it and stay. This all depends on how it is implemented. Currently the way they are exposed is being completely cut off from empire space and unable to field any ship without being obliterated by 50 guys in faction fitted ownzone mobiles with twice as many alts in tow to provide RR and bonuses. Where is the room to actually learn anything?
The blob with alts is one aspect people like to aim to a lot in hi sec wars. It exists in 0.0 and low sec too. There is another play style as well: Solo with a single pair of neutral eyes. No RR, no boosts.
I like your ideas, but my main concern is the complexity. I'd aim rather for simpler solutions addressed to specific points:
Better protection for players unaware of war-mechanics -> pop-up before undocking if at war and rewriting of the war-ending notification.
The auto-export and import of standings would be a cool thing from my point of view. It would ease up a lot also for other play styles and organizations and I'm sure coalitions in null, low and wh would benefit a lot form it. Setting standings is dull and it would be a cool thing to keep dull stuff away from a game that shouldn't be dull but fun. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 08:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: I think the sooner new players experience reasonable PvP, the more likely they are to learn and adapt and most of all; stay subbed to the game. It seemed like because you were decced early on, you just accepted it as part of the game. Kind of like playing a FPS game and being shot at in the first match. It is what the game is.
Your thoughts on that?
You cannot compare PVP in EVE with an FPS because there are, in their most basic essence, different.
PvP in an FPS is generally even, balanced and outside of the players themselves, fair. If you die you just respawn. There is no collection of assets to lose in PvP until you run out.
EvE is different. In eve, if you want to PvP you have to purchase Ships and Modules and once you lose them they're gone. PvP in eve is not even, it's generally many vs 1 in PvP and generally not n vs n number of ships. If you die enough in EvE you can be reduced to nothing and your ability to recover can become abysmally diminished.
Now maybe EvE Valkyrie or Star Citizen would be comparable to an FPS but EvE the way it is now, is not.
The biggest problem I see with PvP for new players is, where do you find it? If a new player wanted to seek out PvP on their own terms what do they have to do? Do give that some thought, and try to think about it from the perspective of a new player that doesn't know about the forums or reddit, just a player that found the game on their own and is trying it on their own. (We're trying not to be exclusive anymore right?) |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 08:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Fighting over mission agents could be one. Maybe a percentage of the mission reward goes towards the group who controls the agent? Just off the top of my head.
What about high-sec moon mining? Or maybe something new that's not available outside of high sec war-decable resources. Maybe Upgraded Navy faction ships and to build them you need components harvested by some sort of high sec orbital structure?
It would have to be something fairly lucrative to entice people to engage each other. And to be fairly lucrative they'd have to be very unique. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1648
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 11:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: I think the sooner new players experience reasonable PvP, the more likely they are to learn and adapt and most of all; stay subbed to the game. It seemed like because you were decced early on, you just accepted it as part of the game. Kind of like playing a FPS game and being shot at in the first match. It is what the game is.
Your thoughts on that?
Yeah i agree very much with that. PvP is a great social experience, its ability to retain players is much better than PvE. And im not just talking about EVE when i say that. Its why im constantly pointing new players to RvB and EVE uni. Those guys do a fantastic job of getting new players into a fleet so they can lose their stuff and appreciate just how normal it is to die. Just like any game with PvP at its core.
But this mechanic wont just be used by noobs to attack null sec alliance logistics. Any mechanic that protects new players can be used by griefers to reduce their risk. If noobs were so inclined to want to do such a thing, an old style war dec with a flat fee of 5mil would let them. The old war decs also let new players war dec miners to stick it to their competition and/or hone their hunting skills.
Stop myself before rant. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6950
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 12:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: I think the sooner new players experience reasonable PvP, the more likely they are to learn and adapt and most of all; stay subbed to the game. It seemed like because you were decced early on, you just accepted it as part of the game. Kind of like playing a FPS game and being shot at in the first match. It is what the game is.
Your thoughts on that?
If I could interject, I have several thoughts on that, as that pretty well sums up my experience with the game as well.
One problem is that the definition of "reasonable PvP" varies pretty wildly depending on who you talk to. Some people, and there are plenty of them, do not want any situation to exist whereby they can be shot at.
Those people will never be satisfied until the game is turned into Trammel. Not only is this contrary to the core design philosophy of EVE, but it would also be immeasurably angering to much of the rest of the playerbase. Ergo, in my opinion, what those people want should be of no consequence, and they can be excluded from the discussion safely.
Now, we come to the real question. What is your working definition of "reasonable PvP"? Is it "no non consensual PvP", is it "make sure they always have a fair chance", is it "throw them to the wolves"? Because that's where a lot of the problem comes from when this discussion starts. We (we meaning the playerbase as a whole) have yet to really define the terms. As a consequence there is no end state to move towards, or more appropriately there are too many competing end states.
So what is "reasonable PvP" to you? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1648
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 18:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: One problem is that the definition of "reasonable PvP" varies pretty wildly depending on who you talk to. Some people, and there are plenty of them, do not want any situation to exist whereby they can be shot at.
Some ppl will try to tell u eve is not a PvP game. Some ppl will tell u that my sig shows whats wrong with the game. Pretty frustrating for someone who joined this game because of its unbridled PvP. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
In-Game Tools Please
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So what is "reasonable PvP" to you? Anything and everything. This needs to be established to new players from the get-go. The only form of PVP that is unwarranted is PVP that is oriented around griefing the other player.
You rarely see a miner blown up to the tune of, "Hey pal, you should try this fit out". It's almost always, "Sorry about the loss; are you at all upset at the outcome?". That is the problem with PVP in this game. Problem being that many players are discouraged to engage with PVPers due to such experiences. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6961
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
In-Game Tools Please wrote: Anything and everything. This needs to be established to new players from the get-go.
Except....
Quote: The only form of PVP that is unwarranted is PVP that is oriented around griefing the other player.
You rarely see a miner blown up to the tune of, "Hey pal, you should try this fit out". It's almost always, "Sorry about the loss; are you at all upset at the outcome?". That is the problem with PVP in this game. Problem being that many players are discouraged to engage with PVPers due to such experiences.
Because this kind of thing totally never happens in other games with PvP, no? It's unique to EVE? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
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Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1256
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Making high sec less secure and less lucrative would be a step in a positive direction for the game. Don't force players to organize, but encourage it none-the-less. Honestly I think there are way too many HiSec systems, and I don't believe there should be 5 and 10% ores in HiSec and LowSec, NullSec, and Anoikis.
Having corps pay x amount of ISK per month for CONCORD protection would be pretty cool I think. This is-á a signature. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
58
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 23:03:00 -
[52] - Quote
Very badly balanced solution, if I got it right, of course. Correct me if not, but won't it allow to target some specific character in empire space by paying some insignificant upkeep money and grief him out of the game with ease? You probably don't account for the fact that isk isn't a balancing factor in Eve at all. So any griefer funded from some nullsec alliance, or just able to PLEX his wallet with billions, could keep anyone he dislike under wardec 24/7 with ease.Then how highsecs will differ from nulls after that? Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1652
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 23:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
In-Game Tools Please wrote: It's almost always, "Sorry about the loss; are you at all upset at the outcome?".
and whats wrong with that? ur now telling us that smacktalk is bad? Have u seen the language gank victims often use?
In-Game Tools Please wrote: Problem being that many players are discouraged to engage with PVPers due to such experiences.
By other carebears...not the PvP'er
The PvP'er will probably say, dnt get so mad. This is why we did it. Heres what u did wrong. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
297
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 23:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Can't like the OP's suggestion enough.
This would resolve a lot of complaints, in my opinion.
Yes, it would mean open season on Miners in NPC corps, but people have been calling for an end to the NPC corp protection for years.
It would also allow for the removal or 2nd coming of the flop that is the bounty system.
The cheapest war-dec would restrict someone, an indy for example, from using a freighter at the belts in their choice mining system, or from hauling through Uedama.
The only downside that I question here would be based on how cheap that low-end war-dec would be. Would it get out of hand like bounties have? Profit favors the prepared |
Abla Tive
62
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 01:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sounds fair, as long as something like a peace-dec is added.
http://jestertrek.blogspot.ca/2014/05/recycling-day-peace-dec.html
After all, if you can target individuals, then you should be able to anti-target individuals too. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 23:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:In-Game Tools Please wrote: It's almost always, "Sorry about the loss; are you at all upset at the outcome?".
and whats wrong with that? ur now telling us that smacktalk is bad? Have u seen the language gank victims often use? The problem with this is in relation to new players. This is one of the major reasons EvE has such a low retention rate. You said it yourself, gank victims often use strong language. That is a pretty good measure of how upset they are. How likely are upset NEW players going to stick with it?
Quote:The PvP'er will probably say, dnt get so mad. This is why we did it. Heres what u did wrong. What you're saying is generally going to be true if you're in low sec, null sec, wh space. Generally high sec war-deccers and especially gankers are going to be extremely derogatory and inflammatory. From my experience the trend is pretty strong.
I'd have to agree that people like that are very discouraging. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7015
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 23:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote: The problem with this is in relation to new players. This is one of the major reasons EvE has such a low retention rate. You said it yourself, gank victims often use strong language. That is a pretty good measure of how upset they are. How likely are upset NEW players going to stick with it?
I fail to see the problem. Someone who can't stand a lossmail isn't likely to keep playing anyway.
Quote: What you're saying is generally going to be true if you're in low sec, null sec, wh space. Generally high sec war-deccers and especially gankers are going to be extremely derogatory and inflammatory. From my experience the trend is pretty strong.
I'd have to agree that people like that are very discouraging.
Didn't you just admit that the inflammatory language was coming from the "victims" in the large part anyway? I wonder what a new player will think if he sees that kind of thing in local after a gank. When they see that CCP allows someone to scream death threats and sexual insults at someone who was playing by the rules of the game in the first place?
I can't imagine that's very encouraging if you wanted to play the bad guy. You know, like the trailers and promotions told you that you could.
Here was how I turned into a "bad guy", by the way. After hearing so much vitriol directed at the "sociopaths" and "griefers", I got blown up by one, and he offered me some fitting advice afterward. Turns out these "pirates" aren't the vile hate filled lunatics that people told me. Turns out they were fun, friendly, and helpful towards new players. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1663
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 23:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote: The problem with this is in relation to new players. This is one of the major reasons EvE has such a low retention rate. You said it yourself, gank victims often use strong language. That is a pretty good measure of how upset they are. How likely are upset NEW players going to stick with it?
i reiterate, so what? if u enter nerd rage mode for getting ganked, u probably shouldnt be playing the game in the first place. U cannot possibly be saying that every time someone gets upset in eve its indicative that a mechanic needs changing. Are u?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Erutpar Ambient wrote: What you're saying is generally going to be true if you're in low sec, null sec, wh space. Generally high sec war-deccers and especially gankers are going to be extremely derogatory and inflammatory. From my experience the trend is pretty strong.
I'd have to agree that people like that are very discouraging.
My experience differs. Some War deccers and gankesr are pretty open about what they do and why they do it. They do often say what went wrong for the victim. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
171
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 07:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I fail to see the problem. Someone who can't stand a lossmail isn't likely to keep playing anyway.
I figured the correct business model and direction CCP is taking is new player retention. That's where i'm coming from in this regards.
Quote: Didn't you just admit that the inflammatory language was coming from the "victims" in the large part anyway? I wonder what a new player will think if he sees that kind of thing in local after a gank. When they see that CCP allows someone to scream death threats and sexual insults at someone who was playing by the rules of the game in the first place?
I can't imagine that's very encouraging if you wanted to play the bad guy. You know, like the trailers and promotions told you that you could.
No I agree with you about the inflammatory language thing. Rules or not, non consensual pvp is going to rustle some jimmies and i also agree that it's probably not good for player retention. Maybe something is wrong with the rules? From my perspective, the trailers paint a picture of being a bad guy that doesn't really match what actually being a bad guy in EvE is like. There's a lot more suicide ganking.
Quote: Here was how I turned into a "bad guy", by the way. After hearing so much vitriol directed at the "sociopaths" and "griefers", I got blown up by one, and he offered me some fitting advice afterward. Turns out these "pirates" aren't the vile hate filled lunatics that people told me. Turns out they were fun, friendly, and helpful towards new players.
So of course i'm curious about the location of the fight you got blown up in and where these pirates are located. I wonder if it follows the trend i proposed previously.
Daichi Yamato wrote:i reiterate, so what? if u enter nerd rage mode for getting ganked, u probably shouldnt be playing the game in the first place. U cannot possibly be saying that every time someone gets upset in eve its indicative of a mechanic needs changing. Are u? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon But you see, the cornerstone is just the cornerstone. It's not the foundation, just a symbolic reference. And i'm not saying that it's really that bad. But I believe it has a lot to do with the player retention.
Quote:My experience differs. Some War deccers and gankesr are pretty open about what they do and why they do it. They do often say what went wrong for the victim. Like I said, it's a trend, not a rule. The war deccers thing is definitely the exception and not the rule.
You know, one thing that should definitely be part of the beginner missions, that might get people to understand from very early on.... They should be given a civilian Battleship of some sort and be made to fight a group of very tough frigates, only to lose the battleship to complete the mission. Or conversely kill a battleship with a frigate. Understanding that a BS is susceptible to lower sized ships is imperative to manage new player expectations.
I guess we've gone a little off topic.... lol |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7022
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 12:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote: No I agree with you about the inflammatory language thing. Rules or not, non consensual pvp is going to rustle some jimmies and i also agree that it's probably not good for player retention. Maybe something is wrong with the rules? From my perspective, the trailers paint a picture of being a bad guy that doesn't really match what actually being a bad guy in EvE is like. There's a lot more suicide ganking.
The point of the game is to rustle some jimmies, as you put it. That's the litmus test for whether you belong in EVE in the first place. Non consensual PvP is a core aspect of the game.
Whether it's good for new player retention is not relevant to the discussion at all. Especially because it's a highly debatable claim as to whether it has a negative effect at all.
Quote: But you see, the cornerstone is just the cornerstone. It's not the foundation, just a symbolic reference. And i'm not saying that it's really that bad. But I believe it has a lot to do with the player retention.
Did you actually just say that? Cornerstone and foundation are synonyms.
And if people quit because other people are allowed to shoot them, good. Those kind of people aren't wanted. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
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