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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2006.06.14 05:33:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 14/06/2006 06:06:38 I play to leave the reglementations of the RL and it's security behind and to virtually experience a different world as a form of entertainment. Like watching a science fiction with bad characters, but interactive. Make everyone play nice and EVE gets boring.
An action film needs bad characters and there is no police that forbids an actor to betray or kill in a movie. It's a movie. And EVE is a game that offers a virtual journey into a harsh universe with good and bad people. It's rediculous, if you remove the bad characters. It's a game and if I wanted to play in beautiful world were everyone is nice to eachother, I'd play sim online or so.
P.S.: I don't care much about this specific case, but I'm afraid of the trend to apply RL rules and laws to a virual environment that's just a game. When does it hit piracy, ganking etc. ?
EVE is about warfare, ultra-capitalism and making it in a world with harsh rules, where you have to decide carefully, where you can PLAY the nice guy or even PLAY the evil insane dictator, whatever you want and see how it works out. If somebody loses isk due to making a wrong decision like trusting the wrong person with an ipo, acting stupid or being ganked etc., then it's part of the game. You can always log-out.
Sorry to use the word 'toon' now, but we are playing with virtual 'toons' in a virtual world with virtual cash in a fictive environment with a story that writes itself. It's NOT the real world, it's just playing with puppets for mature people.
I mean I don't like to be scammed, ganked whatever, like I don't feel sympathy for a serial killer in a movie, but remove the serial killer and the movie gets boring.
P.S.: I don't care much about this specific case, but I'm concerned about the trend. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
TheNecromancer
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:16:00 -
[62]
Edited by: TheNecromancer on 14/06/2006 06:16:21 I cant be reading correct...did some one get scammed for 500mil by another player...and a GM pay him the 500mil back because he felt sorry for him ?
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:17:00 -
[63]
There's no point in playing if you have no risk of losing everything you own, that's what being part of Eve is all about.
This is the first time in three years I've heard of a Scam ever being reimbursed by CCP.
What happened when GHSC ripped off Ubiqua Seraph? Nothing, and that was for more isk, and practically bankrupted a corporation.
It would be interesting to see the reasoning behind the descision...
VETO RECRUITMENT
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:22:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Raven Aure
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Raven Aure As far as I am aware, CCP are actually towing a line they have always gone along.
The mods have frequently stated that whilst scamming is an integral part of EVE, it is strictly prohibited on the EVE-Online forums. This covers GTC scams as well as things like IPOs and auctions. As such they refund where evidence of a scam is conclusive.
I'll try and dig some linkage out now.
for characters and GTC sales. But I believe when it comes to other scams you dont get a reimbursement. Worst that could happen was character forum banning!?
Well I have the answer.
Linkage and I quote:
Originally by: Zhuge Liang 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* ..... *Clarification: Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion.
That answers the OP's question I believe.
That wasnt' there last week. It said "no repercussions ingame" until this got refunded
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Grismar
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:24:00 -
[65]
On the issue of the scam originating on these forums: that's not relevant, as you can only post on these forums if you have a valid account and you're required to use an ingame identity to post. In a sense, the forums are part of the game, using a different client.
On the issue of CCP changing/amending the rules for this case, I suppose that's inevitable. I feel it only serves as a clarification. Apparently, CCP considers the use of a character a real world commodity. This makes sense, especially for CCP, since it is them losing real money if people stop buying new accounts for specialist chars and start sharing eachother's accounts.
On the issue of scams in general, I think we're all pretty much in agreement that it's ok to scam in EVE, as long as the damage is limited to ingame possessions and chafed egos.
Your EVE IGB home EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:26:00 -
[66]
I don't know what Josh is talking about but I'd very much like clarification on what he is asking. -
History of the MC movie! |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:32:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Seleene I don't know what Josh is talking about but I'd very much like clarification on what he is asking.
This, leading to this and this.
Then this happened, and a lot of people aren't happy.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:38:00 -
[68]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Seleene I don't know what Josh is talking about but I'd very much like clarification on what he is asking.
This, leading to this and this.
Then this happened, and a lot of people aren't happy.
Thanks, Hippo. Josh should edit that into his original post.
Yeah, that's silly. No way should the guy have gotten his money back. -
History of the MC movie! |
Feterous Jolin
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:42:00 -
[69]
/signed
I would like to hear CCP's answer to this situation. I'm still in shock.
--
My views do not represent my corporation nor my alliance. |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:47:00 -
[70]
Originally by: TheNecromancer I cant be reading correct...did some one get scammed for 500mil by another player...and a GM pay him the 500mil back because he felt sorry for him ?
you are almost correct. He wasn't the only one. The scammer took (and subsequently lost) 25billion ISK.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:50:00 -
[71]
Old news, get over it.
Time to move on. The future of eve is: SniggWaffe
Shamis
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:51:00 -
[72]
I think its pretty crap tbh, the rules for a solid amount of time have been "Scam your face off as long as its kept ingame." You can argue all you want that the forums defeat the 'ingame' part of that mantra, however the forums are just an expansion of ingame politics and discussion (case in point: character and corp summits, sell order forums, events, eve library).
I have a feeling however that this is another case where the GM team is doing something without CCP's knowledge - a common problem when you outsource your work instead of keeping it in house.
I'd be interested to see how exactly the dev's respond, if they do decide to backpedal on their previous rules there's going to be a loooong line of petitions asking for reimbursement from past scams.
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shwarzkauph
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:58:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg So many games insulate the player from any risk at all.
In WoW, you risk nothing. Dying has almost no penalty. It gets dull and the endgame blows.
Here, you're always at risk of losing alot. If you fly in 00, you can easily be wiped out. This is what makes it fun.
Mr. schohiohwhatever on the first page wants to insulate the players because he's too weak to play a game wiht risk. I say go to hell and play wow.
WHo the heck do you think you are to talk to me like that? I probobly have been playing this game longer than you, noob.
You do realize that eve had close too 100k paying customers right? what percentage of those do you think thinks exactly like you do? Do you also realize that only about %10 of the subscribers are active participants on the forums, so you cant gauge anything by all the liars and thier sympathizers here on the forums. Many of you say you want scams to exist, if your dumb enough to fall for a scam then you deserve it. I say LMAO. IRL the scam artist has consequnces. Just look at your friend and idol ken lay. He is going to die in prison. He was a scam artist and got caught. In eve, someone pulls a scam, there are no conquences. The victim does not have an FBI to go to. The US MArshalls are not going to be hunting the criminal down. No, in eve, there are no consequnces. What kind of a game world do you people want? A lawless one where criminals are king and ruin other people gamepaly at will with no consequnce? If that it the world CCP wants then why the hell have I been here since the first month of release. That is definelty not a game world I want to be part of. Scammer and thieves are scum, ingame or out. Stealing is stealing. Ingame or out. How is fraud commited ingame, any different then fraud committed out of game? I put great value to this game. I invest a lot of time to this game. Some things in this game are as valuable to me as real world item. If someone steals one dollar from my wallet I can call the police and have them arrested. It take more time for me to earn 100 million isk than it does for me to earn a dollar. Id say a good amount of isk is just as valuable to me as that dollar.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: shwarzkauph WHo the heck do you think you are to talk to me like that? I probobly have been playing this game longer than you, noob.
You do realize that eve had close too 100k paying customers right? what percentage of those do you think thinks exactly like you do? Do you also realize that only about %10 of the subscribers are active participants on the forums, so you cant gauge anything by all the liars and thier sympathizers here on the forums. Many of you say you want scams to exist, if your dumb enough to fall for a scam then you deserve it. I say LMAO. IRL the scam artist has consequnces. Just look at your friend and idol ken lay. He is going to die in prison. He was a scam artist and got caught. In eve, someone pulls a scam, there are no conquences. The victim does not have an FBI to go to. The US MArshalls are not going to be hunting the criminal down. No, in eve, there are no consequnces. What kind of a game world do you people want? A lawless one where criminals are king and ruin other people gamepaly at will with no consequnce? If that it the world CCP wants then why the hell have I been here since the first month of release. That is definelty not a game world I want to be part of. Scammer and thieves are scum, ingame or out. Stealing is stealing. Ingame or out. How is fraud commited ingame, any different then fraud committed out of game? I put great value to this game. I invest a lot of time to this game. Some things in this game are as valuable to me as real world item. If someone steals one dollar from my wallet I can call the police and have them arrested. It take more time for me to earn 100 million isk than it does for me to earn a dollar. Id say a good amount of isk is just as valuable to me as that dollar.
Take comfort good sir. Your next investment will be safe with SniggWaffe
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0Virtu0
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:12:00 -
[75]
To be honest, I find the amount of emotion over this hilarious.
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Lisa Run
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:26:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Lisa Run on 14/06/2006 07:27:40 After reading how this scam was done and considering, how easy it is to get away with a scam like this by buying a new char, a fair solution might have been that the GM just removed 20 bil isk from the scammers wallet and trashed it, no reimbursement for the scammed people.
Then maybe everyone involved got the lesson that he deserved. ___________________________ ! Post under construction ! |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:29:00 -
[77]
/signed
The whole refund stinks the place up with the complete failure of the GM's to adhere to their own rules.
You make a rule, you stick to it.
No way should the (lame) scammer be penalized for fairly taking complete advantage of others' folly.
The fact that the sell order scam rule has now been changed to that quoted above also stinks. The amended rule is now totally subject to the whim of GM's rather than being the clear-cut line required for the game to run smoothly.
Notwithstanding, in this instance, I insist that GM's should restore the ISK to the scammer who won it fair and square - while removing it again from the whiners who had it refunded.
If you then wish to revise the rules, do so, but make it clear and stick to it - no matter how painful.
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:54:00 -
[78]
I'am still in shock on what happened .
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Sovy Kurosei
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:59:00 -
[79]
I think the one thing that bothers me about this whole fiasco is just exactly where CCP draws the line matters like this. To be honest, until this incident proved to me otherwise, I didn't think that CCP would intervene in any scams unless it involved real life money, as it should. Unless the scammer was going to do something with the ISK that would go against the EULA then I don't think CCP should have returned the money.
I can emphasize with Omber Zombie and Dark Shikari, but on the other hand I can't see how an IPO scam is much different from corp thefts. Both take advantage of someones trust and are products of someones social engineering. One is okay by CCP and the other, today now, is not okay by CCP.
What I would like to know is:
1. Why would CCP take this course of action when they have a history of being offhands when it comes to the players. 2. Where exactly is this line in the sand that CCP has drawn? What are the players limited to and allowed to do with regards to scamming? ___________________
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.14 08:10:00 -
[80]
Changing the rules on the fly is sad, but sometimes neccesary.
I don't see where it is neccesary to do so this time tho, no real money or anything related to out of game objects was used. And scamming on the forums wasn't prohibited nor should it be, the forums are an ingame tool too.
I wonder wether something else played a role here. Can't imagine CCP being silly enough to create this kind of precedent unless they know something we don't.
Oh, and another thing. With this kind of change of course, can we now expect petitions to be handled within 24 hours again ? I mean, if the GM's *do* decide on this policy, that must mean they've got plenty of spare time to deal with the additional scam refund requests.
yes, an answer would be nice CCP.
Old blog |
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.06.14 08:25:00 -
[81]
So, if Sid Scammer sets up a dodgy IPO on the forums, then his investors are guaranteed their money back no matter what happens - CCP will reimburse them.
But if Sid goes around selling his fake shares in local, then his investors deserve all they get?
That smacks of inconsistency to me.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Paxdrago
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Posted - 2006.06.14 08:48:00 -
[82]
Originally by: shwarzkauph
WHo the heck do you think you are to talk to me like that? I probobly have been playing this game longer than you, noob.
wow calm down. We don't want another thread lock because of insults like that do we......
Originally by: shwarzkauph
You do realize that eve had close too 100k paying customers right? what percentage of those do you think thinks exactly like you do? Do you also realize that only about %10 of the subscribers are active participants on the forums, so you cant gauge anything by all the liars and thier sympathizers here on the forums.
interestingly enough that would be a proper gauge. Your here to post your openion also; or does your openion not represent a portion of the eve populace also. We could say the same thing about your posts and those of each of your alts. As you are at most with say an average of 3 accounts a .003% of the eve population so your oppenion can't represent anyone either and theirfore you are wrong and we are right .
Originally by: shwarzkauph
Many of you say you want scams to exist, if your dumb enough to fall for a scam then you deserve it. I say LMAO. IRL the scam artist has consequnces. Just look at your friend and idol ken lay. He is going to die in prison. He was a scam artist and got caught.
lol he wasn't a scam artist. He allowed the books to be cooked of a real company. It probably wasn't his idea but he didn't stop it and as the debt got too big it all crumbled. He didn't follow the common practices of a scam artist if he had he wouldn't have been around to get caught.
IF he had been a real scam artist he would have funneled all the money into various numbered accounts over seas and left the country. His automated systems or employs would have kept working "Unknowing what really happened" and would go to jail when the truth came out even though they didn't knowingly commit any wrongdoing. However they would rot in prison just because people would want someone punished and the lawyers would happily latch onto the scapegoats to further their own careers. No one would get their money back. THat money would be gone.
Originally by: shwarzkauph
In eve, someone pulls a scam, there are no conquences. The victim does not have an FBI to go to. The US MArshalls are not going to be hunting the criminal down. No, in eve, there are no consequnces.
You might be right or might not be. IT looks like the RUles may have been changed in mid game. We don't want that to happen again. Just think if they yet again changed the agro rules for high sec and appled them to all past events. Yeah it leaves a bad taste in your mouth doesn't it.
Originally by: shwarzkauph
What kind of a game world do you people want?
You go on to say how you think the game should be and what it shouldn't. THe beauty of eve is that it is many things to many people. RIght now it is both what you think the game should be and what you don't want it to be. Eve is not only based upon a law filled country but also of a lawless wasteland where people fight to create their own law. The ingame market is an example of a law filled country. Escrow and the underground markets are more of the player controled lawless wasteland. IPOs fit more in the Lawless wasteland than the gov controled market. When CCP puts market controls upon how shares are bought and sold (hopefuly in the contracts) THey will cross that boundry. However Many of us are asking how CCP decided to break its own rules and game mechanics this time. We are only requesting a good Reason. We understand this is their game.. NOT YOURS NOT MINE. THey have the power to make things apply to past events, but it usualy creates a vocal reaction by the comunity.
"I'm a blurr of carebearing streaking across the universe" - Shamis Orzoz |
Logi3
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Posted - 2006.06.14 08:58:00 -
[83]
Wait, so that super over priced HAC i bought, which scammed me out of 100millio; i can get my money back? Great!.... NOT
You cant change the rules for 1 and not the other. Scamming GTC i understand. Thats real life money, but scams in games?.... Common. You ever heard of the email scams irl?
"I am wealthy divocee with 20billion pound but i need 20 million to get the money, you lend me 20 mill and i will give you 5 billions etc etc etc..."
What im REALLY annoyed at is i remember a time when i was flying around on a different character... Enjoying me new Dominix... BUT, made the mistake of going through the old PF- system and got ganked by pirates.
Not to worry, im fully insured... Wait, wheres the email from Concord? Wheres the insurance email? Wheres my ISK?
What did the Petition say. "Sorry, we cant help. Theres no reccord of yourship loss"
And now we get this rubbish refund?!?.
/me signs Joshua Foirtains letter -----------------------------------------------
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Alessia Karan
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:06:00 -
[84]
I hope CCP can come with some clarification soon, since it is quite apparent that there is a lot of confusion about the actual rules of scamming at the moment. Besides the point of weather you agree with the reimbursment or not, the rules should at least be clear and know to all.
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Major Death
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:10:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Major Death on 14/06/2006 09:12:07 Abuse of bugs to cheat players is wrong. Since most ,if not all, scams however use the greed of the person they are scamming, and do not use bugs, hacks or cheats, I don't feel that sorry for players who have been scammed.
Why should someone who is too lazy to click 'Inspect Merchandise' be refunded for an bad escrow purchase. Would someone who left their Freighter in a 0.0 belt and went off to watch T.V. be refunded?
The only think that is unfair is the 'Use a new character to avoid the rap' effect. That should be looked into.
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Atrelle
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:17:00 -
[86]
/signed
CCP we need clarification on this.
Please make an official post on the rules of scamming.
Due to the severe amount of scamming that happens in EVE, players need to know where they stand. The story that I have read here throws all your rules out of the window and leaves your player base not knowing where they stand at all.
Regards,
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spiderbaby
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:18:00 -
[87]
Posted this just as the other thread got locked (I literally did beat the lock! It was unintended, honest). Reposting here in the correct thread:
Whether or not CCP have acted in a biased fashion here is irrelevant. What's important is that they are being SEEN to be biased here. They've handled this very poorly.
Where's the official explanation?
Where's the proof that this case was different from other scams?
Where's the reasoning behind some people getting treated differently from others?
Personally I think it's disgusting that when well-known people get scammed they get refunded but when unknowns get scammed they get the finger. But of course I don't have access to all the facts. So, CCP, give us the facts.
We need clear, unequivocal, specific, precise detailed explanations of exactly what scams will and won't get refunded. Not vague, open-to-interpretation mumblings that end up leaving people feeling like we have a 2-tier EVE where the devs friends and alts get looked after and everyone else gets shafted. Cos that's what it feels like right now.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:24:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Max Teranous on 14/06/2006 09:24:22
I am considering an IPO venture, you are guarenteed to not lose any isk and will make 50% of your investment back in days !
Linkage
Edit: spelling FTL.
Max
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:31:00 -
[89]
There are no rules - its just made up & changed (usually if someone with high placed friends whines enough) as EVE runs along
/me is surprised some people are even questioning this ..
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Major Tarsis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:31:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Da Death ok, I was forced to move here so here my story:
I wonder what happened: I was IPO scammed and even I had evidence that the scam was 'intended from the beginning' I was declined refund with standard 'no-refund sentences".
Today I look through the forum and found that another play has been refunded for much less evidence then I gave to CCP -here
I am not greevy about the 60m I lost. If I wouldnt get them back I dont care but it is about right and wrong. Many people told me blaa..ITS EVE..blabla..ITS A GAME.blabla...WHY TRUST OTHERS..blabla and then I see 'some' people get special attention like the one above. I am not here to whine that he got his cash back. In fact I am glad that he got it back, it seems CCP starts to do something about it, which is my point of writing this here. Should they not have it done fairly with others too?
I saw you post this before and I got a little confused?
Is this the same IPO or a previous/different one as the issue is to do with a specific IPO as far I understand it and not previous ones etc...
Correct me if I am wrong however..
MT
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