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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.06.20 05:11:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Creed Richards I'm pretty neutral on the whole subject, but I can see the wisdom to relegating such sales to a different forum.
one of their better ideas thats for sure as for the rest of the whingers time to take youre calming pills and go back to WOW for some PVE and risk free PVP
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.20 05:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Waenn Ironstaff GTC are great! I am currently saving up some ISK to get my hands on a nifty 90 days GTC.
Nothing better than playing for free :)
You aren't playing for 'free'. You hav to earn that isk still, and tbh, I could make probably 200m sik/hour via gtcs (because about an hour of RL work here would get me the $$ to buy a gtc to sell), or make a fraction of that NPCing.
But I'm someone who likes to enjoy the whole game, not come home, buy ****, abuse a loophole, and play a game without having actualyl done anything ingame to earn my ingame char/eq.
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
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Posted - 2006.06.20 05:30:00 -
[63]
imho GTC sales aren't per se the problem. the problem is the abuse. selling GTCs only for the purpose of gathering ISK is one of the worst things.
because the argument WHY GTC for ISK sales are a good idea - is the same argument WHY GTC sales-abuse is bad.
Reallife wealth shouldn't matter in-game.
if someone is too poor - he should be able to play the game - else his lack of (reallife) wealth would matter.
but atm ISK for RL cash selling/ISK for GTC selling (because this is the intention - those hardcore GTC sellers don't sell the GTC BECAUSE of the poor ones ... they sell it to get as much ISK as possible) brings the reallife wealth in-game. those who are rich can afford a headstart in-game.
GTCs for ISK - yes ... as long as there's no abuse
and someone who has 7 pages of customers praising his quality as a trader seems quite a bit of abuse ___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Alessandra Grey
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Posted - 2006.06.20 05:32:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Scary Noises I can't believe people don't care about ingame power simply being bought for money.
Its quotes like this that make me realize how few people actually PLAY this game as opposed to just logging in, changing skills and logging out. *****ISK DOES NOT EQUAL POWER.***** This is not WoW. Lots of money doesnt mean you can do ANYTHING. I could be a 2 day old noob who bought 400 bucks worth of GTCs and sold em all for isk. So i've got a couple billion in the bank...but i cant use T2 anything or fly anything better than a frigate. I'M SO POWERFUL! A caracal could sneeze hard and kill a frigate. So where does this mythic power that ISK grants you come from? There isnt any, so you cant answer it. The bottom line is that theres 3 kinds of people who are talking in this thread: The people who buy/sell GTC form ISK. The people who dont but approve. The people who cant afford to so they whine. Its not anyone elses fault that you cant afford to do something. If i have a lamborghini, does that mean i should sell it cause you cant afford to drive one? No. It means you should either live with it, or improve your status. The Devs have decided that this is a legal practice, so complain all you want, but there still havent been any fact-based arguments against it. _______________________
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Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.06.20 05:33:00 -
[65]
Does the GTC for ISK allow some people to play without credit cards or cash?
Yes.
Does it make the ISK farmer's life easier?
Yes.
The old ISK farmer route was make ISK -> Ebay -> sale -> ISK transfer within game.
Now it is make ISK -> buy GTC from forum -> Ebay -> sell GTC -> email code to buyer.
Given that CCP guarantees GTC sales made via these forums, they in effect make GTC's bought that way legit.
What is CCP then going to do - invalidate GTCs sold by third parties where real money has changed hands?
The old system of ISK selling had nothing to do with CCP. If you bought Ebay ISK you could and deserved to be ripped off.
The new system means that CCP gets it's cash, but in also means that the Farmers are guaranteed to get their cash as well. With CCP guaranteeing the first half of the transaction.
So the new system is CCP sells GTC to player who sells GTC for ISK to farmer who sells GTC again for cash.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.20 06:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Alessandra Grey *****ISK DOES NOT EQUAL POWER.***** This is not WoW. Lots of money doesnt mean you can do ANYTHING. I could be a 2 day old noob who bought 400 bucks worth of GTCs and sold em all for isk. So i've got a couple billion in the bank...but i cant use T2 anything or fly anything better than a frigate.
I can't fly a capital ship right now.
Give me 20bil isk, and I'll be flying a Dread within a few days.
IF you can't figure out how, then maybe you should sit down and have a nice long think.
Isk doesn't equal power?
If I buy all the 125mm railgun II bpos, I'll certain have power, and at my whim, the item's production could stop completely. Don't think it can happen? Why do you think cloaks are so expensive? Or Cap charger IIs?
Oh, and lets not forget, a few bil isk extra means you could hire a merc corp or 5 to wardec and wtfpwn your enemy. I'm not sure of the MC's going rates, but I'm sure if they wouldn't take a bil or 2, a few damn good corps would.
Only a fool thinks that ISK doesn't give any sort of power.
Oh, and atleast one of the Hawk BPO owners bought the BPO by selling GTCs.
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Selfe
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Posted - 2006.06.20 07:06:00 -
[67]
Of you follow the line back CCP get every penny so it would be like buying it yourself. ______________________
What does so0meone have to do to get a bloody Image up. Mods please let the world see my face! |
Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.06.20 07:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Selfe Of you follow the line back CCP get every penny so it would be like buying it yourself.
Actually no.
A. CCP -> sells GTC for cash to customer -> who sells, gives way, uses the GTC.
This is how it should work.
B. CCP -> sells GTC for cash to customer -> who sells for ISK on forum -> to new customer or ISK farmer -> who uses, gives away or resells the GTC.
This the another way CCP allows and enforces.
Note the difference - B leads into the Game, while A is 100% external.
A gives the cash to CCP.
B gives the cash to CCP but also allows the transfer of ISK in game for out of game reasons, thereby breaking down the barrier between the game and the Real World and allowing real world financial power to directly affect in game events.
A = good. B = bad.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.20 07:50:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 20/06/2006 07:54:14 I find the argument above to be somewhat hilarious tbh.
If you have played MMO's in the last decade you know that there is no barrier to be torn down between RL and ingame economies. The barrier you talk of hasn't existed for the last 5-10 years in most games, and longer in others.
Just because one of the effects of GTC's for isk is 'bad' doesn't mean that therefore the only logical thing to do is stop allowing it ?
It only would if that would mean you stop the trading of Isk for RL cash. You won't, because that art is older then Eve and went on from day one to now and will continue no matter what you do. The only way to stop that market is to stop demand. And demand can't be stopped by threats, only by changing the game drastically, which is unwanted.
The time of the "But it's bad !!! Ban them all and make it stop ! " -approach is gone. It's been tried for a deade and hasn't done **** for MMO's. RMT has grown beyond the control of game developers and won't be gotten back in wihtout them getting their hands dirty too.
Old blog |
Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:09:00 -
[70]
Rod
I am fully aware that ever since MMOs first arrived there has been a market in objects/money from those MMOs.
Sadly demand creates supply, so as long as people want short cuts in EvE the sellers will prosper.
What I am against is CCP becoming part of a system it supposedly objects to.
After all, I have seen faction ships and other goodies being offered for cash, as well as characters.
So why doesn't CCP make sure that it also benefits from this trade by selling faction ships and 25 mil SP characters to who ever has the cash for them? That would kill the ebayers.
The danger I see is that CCP starts to find the extra cash from such activities desirable: First GTCs, then voice servers, then what next?
At the moment EvE rewards players who actually do things in the game. You want a billion ISK and a titan? Well you and your buddies should work for it. Instead we are heading for a "if you can afford the cash, here it is system".
I know that you can't stop the farmers and ISK sellers. What can be stopped is CCP simply becoming the biggest farmer/seller.
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Dihoru
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:10:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Dihoru on 20/06/2006 08:11:21 Timecode selling online isn't wrong in any way.CCP gets the same amount of money and people like me who can't afford the monthly fees get to play, we just can't, its no cause we are greedy sons of ******* its just we don't have the money for it but we still love the game like anyone else online. So as long as no one is hurt and CCP still gets its cash i say isk for timecodes is ok.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:19:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 20/06/2006 08:25:56
CCP already finds the extra cash they can make that way attractive.
They're running a business.
However, they are not prepared to increase the impact of real money trades on the game. Just injecting magicked-up isk and items into the game for soem extra cash is not something CCP are going to be interested in.
What I imagine they'd like to see is more control over it to them, so that they can handle it in such a way that the game suffers as little as possible from the fact that there simply will be a trade of real money for isk.
Have you checked up on ebay prices for isk recently ? Compare them to the price if isk for gtc's on the eve forums. You should notice how you can get the same if not more isk by using the forums and GTC's. Chances are no farmer is involved in a GTC transaction, just individual players on an incidental basis. Ebay isk producers would need to dro their prices significantly to get customers back again right ?
Won't that mean less isk farmers in Eve ?
The difference is simple: you now get confronted with the GTC sales where you used to not see anything go on when the same people bought their isk via IGE or ebay.
I don't think the relative amount of isk involved has grown much. I know that the amount of real money earned by the farmers has dropped considerably. And I hope CCP can continue and do a follow-up to the GTC scheme by introducing the first restrictions to force more casual GTC-selling behaviour.
Those three things combined mean to me that the GTC for isk exchange is basically a roaring success. Even is I don't like the whole cash for game items thing either
And no, I don't and never will sell GTC's for isk.
Old blog |
Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:33:00 -
[73]
At the end of the day buying in game currency for RL money will happen whatever you do. All this is is a system that enables CCP to get the money and the end users to play without the pressure of trying to find the money so in that way is a good thing and I don't have a problem with it.
I think there are more problems coming from the issue that you can have money generating accounts that people can pay for just with isk. This inflates the membership numbers and I think is more damaging than the actual selling of the time cards. I mean damaging as in to the spirit of the game for example if I can have a mining account that makes 75m an hour why would I not have 2. Or 3. Or 4. Doesn't cost me any RL money and adds nothing to the fabric of the game other than my PvP character now REALLY rocks out :-/
That's my issue with it
(Putting a in game figure on your RL job earnings is a scary thing though, maybe I'll contact HR and get them to pay me 3Bn a day in ISK instead, even with corp tax and Sales tax I'd be rocking out :) )
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:38:00 -
[74]
Well, the demand for isk caps the supply of gtc's for those extra accounts.
Or: when too many people start those extra accounts the price of gtc's will go up.
Balance is somewhere along the way, not to mention that anything beyond 2 maybe 3 accounts is really not usefull at all as they add little to nothing to your gameplay fun.
Old blog |
Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:56:00 -
[75]
It's not about fun though is it. It's about the fact that If I were so inclined I have enough safe 0.0 space that I can run 4 accounts at the same time and with a friend hauling will make 300m an hour without any benefit to the general playerbase and do so at 0 RL cost or risk. That capability is more unbalancing than the GTC' and as people seem to be using these for their extra accounts it makes you wonder if the actual alt/main ratio has increased since these became more prevalent.
There will be a point where those elements would balance out as you say but its a long way off for now.
Anyway, I'll come up with a few more coherent thoughts later, I need my bed.
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Brooks Carlson
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Posted - 2006.06.20 08:56:00 -
[76]
This problem is prevalent in every MMO that exists atm. Unfortuantely there is only really one way to deal with it - and thats at the design phase:
The trick (which no game/developer has managed yet - assuming it's something they're even interested in doing!) is to balance out the characters development with his equipment/in-game cash level etc. so that they're always pretty much in unison - so no player should ever have much of a surplus to waste on 'external' objects. I.e. it's the character and his skills (i.e. time spent playing!) thats worth something, and not the equipment etc. the character has. Then all you need is either a way to stop or at least limit the sale/transfer of characters/accounts... The only problem with this solution, is that, as I said - the game itself needs to be designed that way, which is either hard, or unwanted - (since it hasn't been attempted yet).
The main area this is a problem is when games have an emphasis on equipment, rather than skills - (like pretty much ever game by Blizzard), though Eve is still not exempt from it either unfortunately, due to things like BPO's etc. and also the fact that you can develop your character without having to play the game to get the in-game currency to support it - so it's actually fairly easy to have a character whose main bottleneck is it's cash level, rather than it's skills - which is whats needed to cancel out this problem... Brooks Carlson,
A veteran of the battle of Endor, and a valued member of Lieutenant Page's Commando's... |
res0nance
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Posted - 2006.06.20 09:02:00 -
[77]
GTC's are a great way for people who don't have the money or don't want to spend it on a game to play.
Or, in my case, I can play two MMORPG's at once by paying for EVE with isk and WoW with my EVE money.
Yes I'm a carebear flower picking fairy in my spare time. And I love it. And I still bbq you in pvp.
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res0nance
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Posted - 2006.06.20 09:06:00 -
[78]
GTC's are a great way for people who don't have the money or don't want to spend it on a game to play.
Or, in my case, I can play two MMORPG's at once by paying for EVE with isk and WoW with my EVE money.
Yes I'm a carebear flower picking fairy in my spare time. And I love it. And I still bbq you in pvp.
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Darwinia
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Posted - 2006.06.20 09:08:00 -
[79]
There are lots of good reasons why selling GTCs works well for EVE and CCP, but I personally don't like the fact that RL wealth can influence your standing in a virtual world.. at least this virtual word.
Will I leave EVE over it? Nope Will I ever buy a GTC with ISK? Maybe... but for now my money goes for shiney ingame toys. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.20 09:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis It's not about fun though is it. It's about the fact that If I were so inclined I have enough safe 0.0 space that I can run 4 accounts at the same time and with a friend hauling will make 300m an hour without any benefit to the general playerbase and do so at 0 RL cost or risk. That capability is more unbalancing than the GTC' and as people seem to be using these for their extra accounts it makes you wonder if the actual alt/main ratio has increased since these became more prevalent.
There will be a point where those elements would balance out as you say but its a long way off for now.
Anyway, I'll come up with a few more coherent thoughts later, I need my bed.
Yeah but what's stopping you from doing the same thing now ? (except having to pay for those accounts or making friends to do it with instead).
In my mind there's little doubt that GTC selling increases the amount of extra accounts yes. However, as long as the game remains balanced on the assumption that one account can compete with multiple by virtue of teamwork then that issue remains manageable. It may not be ideal, but it's manageable.
As to the point of balance being a long way off. I don't think so really. By the looks of it gametime sells out rapidly on the forums, that means that supply and demand are not far apart, and that from this point on demand for gametime may soon actually outpace the supply of it.
And anyway, there's a few nice options CCP can employ to soften up the extremes (like selling $2500 worth of gametime in a month, or like your example of people running a half dozen isk-powered accounts). We'll have to see when CCP get around to actually developing things further in that regard.
Old blog |
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Rells
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Posted - 2006.06.20 09:58:00 -
[81]
I am against GTC selling for isk as well.
◄ PvP University: Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Alessandra Grey
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Posted - 2006.06.20 10:17:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
I can't fly a capital ship right now.
Give me 20bil isk, and I'll be flying a Dread within a few days.
IF you can't figure out how, then maybe you should sit down and have a nice long think.
Isk doesn't equal power?
You know what, you're absolutely right. You could fly a dread within a couple days by buying a character with that ISK. However, try getting into a fight and watch how quickly that dread pops and you're floating in a pod, or back at a station in a fresh new clone. As for the other points, sure, you could buy up all the T2 BPOs...if the current owners will sell them. But considering theyre probably pulling a nice tight profit on it, i seriously doubt it. And gouging the market when you hold em all? Please. Have every major corp and alliance on you so hard it wouldnt even be funny. Lets see you come up with enough ISK to hire enough mercs to wipe out several alliances who all want you dead. ISK can buy you anything in the game except power. Why? Cause power doesnt come from ships or guns or BPOs or mercs. Power comes from knowing how to play. It comes from flying a t1 fitted interceptor and whomping a t2 fitted battleship just because you know how to do it. It comes from successfully running a corporation. It comes from building a reputation and playing the game. Buying a ship or a character and hiring mercs doesnt make you powerful. It makes you weak and scared. You now have a character that you're too inexperienced to know how to handle, and those people you hired mercs to kill are gonna have friends and it's gonna come back to you sooner or later. If you think power in EVE comes from being a bloody jerk and making yourself a wanted target, you should really quit now. You've got the wrong idea about the game and are likely to end up in a position where you're going to quit anyway because so many people want you dead that undocking anywhere in space isnt going to be safe for you. Try hiring mercs to wardec your enemies when the whole server wants your pod.
_______________________
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.06.20 10:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Alessandra Grey
And gouging the market when you hold em all? Please. Have every major corp and alliance on you so hard it wouldnt even be funny.
So what?
If I held every Cap Recharger II print in the game, every alliance would be my friend. They might not want to be, but if they weren't they'd get zero Cap Recharger IIs. Ever. There's damn all they'd be able to do about it, because the alt who holds all the bpo's and publicly does all the price-fixing and deciding who to let buy them, NEVER UNDOCKS.
You don't need to play the game to have power. You can have all the power on one alt, and play the game with another one.
I have neither the cash nor the interest in doing it, but someone with a couple of hundred grand to waste could quite easily wreck the whole political balance of EVE, permanently. It's only because nobody else has the cash and interest together, that it hasn't happened yet. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.20 10:39:00 -
[84]
Except that in Eve reality people know who holds what t2 bpo's most of the time. And who his main is, which alliance he seels to and which not, etc.
And tbh, there's very little chance of someone every against owning all bpo's of a module or ships. Not because he couldn't afford them, but because most important items are at least partially owned by alliances and simply won't be sold because they've not been bought to make isk but to guarantee availability of the item.
And even if, wouldn't it be great to see some serious nutcase buying up all cap II bpo's for "a few hundred grand" just to see CCP seed another 20 or so BPO's in reaction ?
I don't buy Cap II's btw, never have. I still don't have a shortage of them or the next best variety. Cartel or not, it's all of a very very relative influence on the grander scale of Eve.
You''re right in that CCP better cancel the BPO for isk lottery they planned tho, that's not going to work anymore. And any future tech upgrades should depend on isk the least of all, and effort the most. That'll deal with excessive isk buyers nicely.
Old blog |
Brooks Carlson
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Posted - 2006.06.20 10:42:00 -
[85]
To 'continue' - (it's the same-thing said differently) from my last post....
The fundamental problem with people selling in-game items for real money or vice-versa is that in-game items and cash have become 'too' valuable to too many people.
The question is WHY are in game items worth so much, and what (if anything) can be done about it...
The reason in-game items are worth so much, is that it's easy to get a character that needs resources - (items/cash/equipment etc.) that it dosen't 'earn' - (if you have a char thats a year old but only been played for a couple of months in total - (though skills have been kept up to date) then it'll need far more resources to be 'current' a lot quicker than if it was played for most of that time - which raises the value of those resouces greatly - this situation in this respect is kinda unique to Eve, but it's a big problem - even a slight imbalance between skill-training time and playing ('earning') time is enough to imbalance the entire game for some people to make them think about selling real-world items (i.e. gamecards) for in-game currency (i.e. resources)- (plus it's actually possible to FORCE an imbalance by training the 'wrong skills and the right-time/right skills at the wrong time'). Brooks Carlson,
A veteran of the battle of Endor, and a valued member of Lieutenant Page's Commando's... |
Gibmundur
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Posted - 2006.06.20 11:21:00 -
[86]
This and many other silly things ccp does made me quit.
/me waits for accounts to run out
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Martin Mckenna
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Posted - 2006.06.20 11:36:00 -
[87]
It enables people like me to play the game. im 16 and dont have an income but through paying 2 months at the start of eve i can now make isk ingame to keep playing.
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.20 18:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: The Wizz117 if they would make game time code selling illegal i would stop playing eve
Now you're just trying to cheer us up
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.20 19:27:00 -
[89]
What a bunch of spineless blathering.
CCP allow time card selling for ISK. If you don't like it, there's the door.
Time card selling for ISK, WITHOUT causing inflation, has CRUSHED the market of both Ebay and the likes of Yantis and IGE for Eve ISK. This is GOOD. Very good.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.20 19:36:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 20/06/2006 19:37:35
Originally by: Rod Blaine You''re right in that CCP better cancel the BPO for isk lottery they planned tho, that's not going to work anymore. And any future tech upgrades should depend on isk the least of all, and effort the most. That'll deal with excessive isk buyers nicely.
BWHAHAHAHA.
...
No, it favours the people who GRIND the most for this, and in virtually every case that WILL be the existing manufacturers. So they don't even have to PAY for them.
Shrug, I'm sure T3 will be module-altering, not boosting as such and avoid mudflation.
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