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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 20:58:00 -
[631] - Quote
Mazzara wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:New parties into the current state of 00 sec? Why? Are they big? Can they create headlines like the 2 BBB? I doubt it. And since they cannot create headlines nor otherwise meaningful content, they are not needed in the current state of 00 sec. With the current mechanics and, probably more importantly, the very simple-minded meta gaming around Sov 00 sec, you cannot get into Sov 00 without succumbing to one of the blocks or get kicked out. Even with your changes. Your suggestions, especially the JF bubble immunity, is very funny. ^^ If you can only jump to the next system, where's the point of having a jump drive at all? They are expensive, they need a cyno everyone can warp to, they then offer no benefit anymore. And by the way: Why is there yet another thread about this topic? It has been discussed over and over, even in several topics in the last couple of weeks... oh look another, oh no you can't do that, this game is for just us, and anyone ideas that would change how we play the game is wrong
Jumpdrives will still exist cynos will still exist they will still have value. Bypassing gatecamps , Jumping into battles in a preferred position. Cynoing onto a station things like that.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 20:59:00 -
[632] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:
With about 500m in implants our Nidhoggur warps 4.3 AU/sec with an align of 9.9 seconds (compare to the 14s align of the ever popular "foxcat" batleship) Sure, "proper" caps/supers may counter these fast warping Nidhoggurs, but those caps/supers are slow and have to cyno and cap up in each and every system. Meanwhile the Nidhoggurs will simply be gone by the time the counter-caps arrive.
I can see it now. The same people that bring 1000 ishtars to a fight will now bring 1000 nidhoggurs instead.
You know what's hilarious? That caps will break the proposed mechanics just as badly as they broke the current game. Too bad some people just can't stand the prospect of their "shiny" getting nerfed. And I don't mean just a jump drive nerf. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:23:00 -
[633] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:>Each alliance has a Capitol seat, each corp in the alliance has a Home system >Make sov require contiguous systems and scale the cost to how many systems are owned. >system bonuses are tied to distance from capitol, and home >Sov costs are based on useage (reverse scale, more used systems are cheaper) >Map statistic intel is no longer published (docked active pilots/active pilots in space) >Grav/ice sites become signatures again and better balanced for lowend minerals (just make them easy to find) >Everything gets an alchemy (Goo, Ice, minerals, gas) >system sov index tied to useage, Naturaly degrading sov means that sov can be lot due to inactivity by owners. >allow more then one outpost per system and remove outpost ownership from sov influence. add monthly upkeep costs per station.
-Jump bridges are now for only moving around in your own space because the sov necessary has to be attached to other sov. -Individual nullsec empires are smaller to control costs, while encouraging small alliances to take space, While this doesnt change renting, it encourages more alliances owning space. and reduced the sprawl of single entities. -multiple outposts not affected by system sov means that A. Real market hubs can be built, with refining, manufacturing and research can be centered in a home or capital system, B. Services can be rendered and upkept by third parties (neutral black frog stations anyone?) -more alchemy allows for greater freedoms in ship types in non-native regions, with reduced logistical need for fuel importation. -Ice and ore signatures means greater security for miners in null, low and wh, while better balance of mineral composition means less reliance on importation
Comments?
Alliance Home system I don't agree because under you're suggested change larger alliances are punished. Goonswarm Federation as a example have 10k members. They require more systems and from what I gather from your post is that the further away from the home system the less benefits they get. This punishes someone like GFed for no good reason.
I think everyone agrees sov cost should be tied to utilization. Heavy utilization should give discounts to the sov bill and increase the tenacity of sov structures. Whereas underutilization ( levels are all debatable) should increase sov cost and sov structures have less tenacity.
Idisagree completely with map statistics being removed. I think they are a fair and equitable way for people to use for intel. You still need to travel to the system to see who and what is doing things.
Grav Sites - Perhaps in a nullsec where you rely on producing locally this makes sense. Tucking miners away in some site that needs to be probed down seems silly. We want people working together and PVP'rs actively protecting miners. Well hostile parties seeking to destroy miners need some reasonable measure of being able to get to the miners before they can simply dock up. Not to say that miners should die when a hostile enters system.
Alchemy - Yeah this would be a no brainer in a nullsec that exist post power projection nerf.
Outpost - I am not sure that we would want more than one outpost per system. Why wouldn't you just want to upgrade your current outpost eliminating the need for more outpost. I think outpost upgrades should become cheaper and there should be a greater selection of upgrades and more levels. Goonswarm Federation has a ton of corps they should be able to upgrade a station to the point that all of those corps could have a office. It shouldn't cost a bajillion isk either. A upgrade like office upgrade should cost a flat amount and give you X amount of slots.
Jumpbridges being attached - I agree they should be attached to other sov. No more islands. You can have an island somewhere but that island can only have jumpbridges within that island.
Stations not affected by sov - I like the spirit of the idea ( I can recall ISS and how they were a neutral party that offered services just like you describe) . However how stations are conquered needs to be fleshed out. The sov owner has to have some means of control over the station should the other party become fowl or default on the terms of use. Perhaps the treaty system could come into play here with station owners being able to lease a station to 3rd parties while still retaining ownership.
HTH @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:30:00 -
[634] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:
With about 500m in implants our Nidhoggur warps 4.3 AU/sec with an align of 9.9 seconds (compare to the 14s align of the ever popular "foxcat" batleship) Sure, "proper" caps/supers may counter these fast warping Nidhoggurs, but those caps/supers are slow and have to cyno and cap up in each and every system. Meanwhile the Nidhoggurs will simply be gone by the time the counter-caps arrive. I can see it now. The same people that bring 1000 ishtars to a fight will now bring 1000 nidhoggurs instead. You know what's hilarious? That caps will break the proposed mechanics just as badly as they broke the current game. Too bad some people just can't stand the prospect of their "shiny" getting nerfed. And I don't mean just a jump drive nerf.
Really ? because you won't have intel channels or anything ? You won't have people in space doing things downpipe that can notify you that hey so and so is coming? Furthermore why are they coming? What will being there accomplish unless they intend to stay there. Absenteeism no longer works with sov holding. You have to be there you have to live there in order to keep it. So maybe the 1000 nids make you dock up. Perhaps they RF some stuff. Then what?
They have no lasting power unless they can commit to being there. Because sure they can project power in that place but that place only. Again I would drag bubble , dictor bubble them to hell and back and make them miserable for ever coming. Burn your 1000 nids through dictor bubbles every jump. Or cap up and jump every jump. Go for it bro just go for it.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:36:00 -
[635] - Quote
Mashka Cybertrona wrote:this is a sandbox, the community has the power to "fix" a lot of the problems itself. It simply requires enough of us to get on board with an ideology and stick with it. Saying that everyone wants to win and so they will just cast aside any agreements in favor of "winning at any cost", you have a different definition of winning that I do. If you have to break agreements, blob a system to the point of locking it down to achieve strategic victory that is not winning in my book, that if anything is a loss. And my idea was not about sovereignty. It was about content generation. Wars currently are used to generate content, a direct side effect is having to force an enemy to defend an asset or risk losing it. What I'm proposing is an enviroment that generates content without the sov grinding. N3 and CFC keep their existing space, generate content in a warzone region (I vote for catch/Provi) and nobody has to remain in this scenario of kicking each other in the nuts until one guy falls over xD TLDR: If you don't want the space If you hate the sov grind If you want good fights Why not come to an agreement to generate wargames/fun fighting in a warzone? At least until CCP fixes eve
Shadoo , Mister Vee , Vince Draken and I had this idea a year ago. In the end it could be fun for a short time but it would be hollow and meaningless. Much as most of the fighting that blocks are doing now. Both blocks have everything they want there is no need or little will to go all in and risk destruction. Why risk it we got the goodlife now is the mentality. Peacetime reimbursements , Endless Supers with isk to rebuild them when the occasional woops happens. I know I am the minority I say F it all lets just get it on because it will be epic. But most people have attachment to their space pixels and are only willing to risk them if there is a reasonable chance of success.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:37:00 -
[636] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:
With about 500m in implants our Nidhoggur warps 4.3 AU/sec with an align of 9.9 seconds (compare to the 14s align of the ever popular "foxcat" batleship) Sure, "proper" caps/supers may counter these fast warping Nidhoggurs, but those caps/supers are slow and have to cyno and cap up in each and every system. Meanwhile the Nidhoggurs will simply be gone by the time the counter-caps arrive. I can see it now. The same people that bring 1000 ishtars to a fight will now bring 1000 nidhoggurs instead. You know what's hilarious? That caps will break the proposed mechanics just as badly as they broke the current game. Too bad some people just can't stand the prospect of their "shiny" getting nerfed. And I don't mean just a jump drive nerf. Really ? because you won't have intel channels or anything ? You won't have people in space doing things downpipe that can notify you that hey so and so is coming? Furthermore why are they coming? What will being there accomplish unless they intend to stay there. Absenteeism no longer works with sov holding. You have to be there you have to live there in order to keep it. So maybe the 1000 nids make you dock up. Perhaps they RF some stuff. Then what? They have no lasting power unless they can commit to being there. Because sure they can project power in that place but that place only. Again I would drag bubble , dictor bubble them to hell and back and make them miserable for ever coming. Burn your 1000 nids through dictor bubbles every jump. Or cap up and jump every jump. Go for it bro just go for it. So.....just to be clear......people that are willing to bring 1000 domis to a fight won't be willing to bring 1000 nidhoggurs that warp/align as fast or faster (and come with a jump drive for what that's worth).
Yeah, no, you're right. No one would ever go for that. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:48:00 -
[637] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:
With about 500m in implants our Nidhoggur warps 4.3 AU/sec with an align of 9.9 seconds (compare to the 14s align of the ever popular "foxcat" batleship) Sure, "proper" caps/supers may counter these fast warping Nidhoggurs, but those caps/supers are slow and have to cyno and cap up in each and every system. Meanwhile the Nidhoggurs will simply be gone by the time the counter-caps arrive. I can see it now. The same people that bring 1000 ishtars to a fight will now bring 1000 nidhoggurs instead. You know what's hilarious? That caps will break the proposed mechanics just as badly as they broke the current game. Too bad some people just can't stand the prospect of their "shiny" getting nerfed. And I don't mean just a jump drive nerf. Really ? because you won't have intel channels or anything ? You won't have people in space doing things downpipe that can notify you that hey so and so is coming? Furthermore why are they coming? What will being there accomplish unless they intend to stay there. Absenteeism no longer works with sov holding. You have to be there you have to live there in order to keep it. So maybe the 1000 nids make you dock up. Perhaps they RF some stuff. Then what? They have no lasting power unless they can commit to being there. Because sure they can project power in that place but that place only. Again I would drag bubble , dictor bubble them to hell and back and make them miserable for ever coming. Burn your 1000 nids through dictor bubbles every jump. Or cap up and jump every jump. Go for it bro just go for it. So.....just to be clear......people that are willing to bring 1000 domis to a fight won't be willing to bring 1000 nidhoggurs that warp/align as fast or faster (and come with a jump drive for what that's worth). Yeah, no, you're right. No one would ever go for that.
Again to what end are they bringing 1000 of whatever to a fight. If its a system they plan to take that borders there existing space that they can utilize I say good for them. They had a 1000 dudes obviously they needed that system. Because if they take it and don't need it and can't utilize it its going to cost them a fortune. Now if those 1000 whatevers are traveling to some distant spot to take something or help take something I say ok great that 1000 helped take it. Now what happens when they leave and the 1000 whatevers aren't there to protect it? Are those 1000 whatevers going to travel back and forth everyday. I mean if the 1000 whatevers are traveling back and forth everyday then damn thats a 1000 whatevers not at there home to defend. I'd dial up some mercs or enemies of the 1000 whatevers and say " hey 1000 whatevers are traveling here everyday all there stuff is undefended" . Bam now 1000 whatevers have a choice to make " Do we take our 1000 whatevers over here or do we need our 1000 whatevers to stop stuff happening in our own space. You know since we already established they like using 1000 whatevers to get the job done.
Like I feel like you are not connecting the dots here. Only seeing part of the equation that reinforces your bias. During the Haloween war the attackers CFC , RUS , BL tried doing exactly what I am suggesting. The problem with that idea was that because of power projection N3/PL specifically me for a large part was able to bounce slowcat/subcap/super fleets all over the universe and put out fires as they were lit. CFC , RUS , BL were a impressive force able to create REAL pressure all over the map. But because of power projection I was able to counter that pressure.
*Edit to expand on my point. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 21:59:00 -
[638] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Like I feel like you are not connecting the dots here. Only seeing part of the equation that reinforces your bias.
Maybe. But where I live, I see 100-200 man Roaming fleets every day. Those fleets often bring ishtars, apocs, etc. In the past some of them used domis.
Do you see why I might have a problem with those same roaming fleets using Nidhoggurs that warp/align faster than those same battleships, can use the same gates everyone uses, have far more ehp, dps, and rep available than those same battleships, and on top of everything else can refit to any other loadout on a whim? Do you seriously not see the problem with that?
Maybe the mighty pandemic legion doesn't see that as a problem. But I'm a little dude in a relatively small and insignificant outfit that fights outnumbered every day. And you know what? I can't kite those nidhoggurs. I can't kill them off one by one. I can't do anything to them except batphone some bigger friends. But your changes make even that bat phone bit harder (which is a good thing - the only good thing about these proposed changes).
So tell me, how should I connect those dots? |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
707
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 22:18:00 -
[639] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:
Like I feel like you are not connecting the dots here. Only seeing part of the equation that reinforces your bias.
Maybe. But where I live, I see 100-200 man Roaming fleets every day. Those fleets often bring ishtars, apocs, etc. In the past some of them used domis. Do you see why I might have a problem with those same roaming fleets using Nidhoggurs that warp/align faster than those same battleships, can use the same gates everyone uses, have far more ehp, dps, and rep available than those same battleships, and on top of everything else can refit to any other loadout on a whim? Do you seriously not see the problem with that? Maybe the mighty pandemic legion doesn't see that as a problem. But I'm a little dude in a relatively small and insignificant outfit that fights outnumbered every day. And you know what? I can't kite those nidhoggurs. I can't kill them off one by one. I can't do anything to them except batphone some bigger friends. But your changes make even that bat phone bit harder (which is a good thing - the only good thing about these proposed changes). So tell me, how should I connect those dots?
Ok the reasons why you see those 100-200 man roaming fleets everyday are easy to explain.
- They are from coalitions. Whose individual alliances all live in different regions. But because of jumpbridges they can all come together very easy to form these 100-200 man fleets.
- These 100-200 man fleets don't have anything else to do. They don't have miners or builders to protect in there home space. They don't have logistic pipes to patrol. The only thing they can do is form a fleet big enough to go somewhere to get pvp content and the fleet has to be big enough to deal with what they deem as expected possible escalation.
- Perhaps these pilots are all staging from VFK or something like that. They are doing so because there is nothing for them to do in there home area. I mean they can run some anoms but other than that they are where the action is.
With the changes I suggested you will see much more focus on home space. Doing things in home space and protecting it. Raiding other neighboring space to disrupt those activities like mining and etcetra. They definitely won't be able to skip large swaths of space via cynos and jumpbridges. So coming together to form those fleets will in itself be a chore. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
jiujitsutou
Outrider's Black. Sails
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 22:45:00 -
[640] - Quote
Hi i would like to throw in some more ideas into the discusion some of wich allready have been mentioned in one or another way , so are my own and some come from talking with people. This is a very limited model and only focuses on the power projection aspect .
So basicly: I like the idea that capitals have a special way of traveling (cyno jumping) . So my model wouldnt touch this part but . -> SC-¦s and Titans would receive a (as suggested earlyer in this massive thread) jump timer wich is char bound (15 min per jump maybe ? dont want to focus on details here) The story idea behind it is that moving so huge ships really shakes and bends the space-time continuum and it needs some time to get back into normal swing . The gameplay idea is : Sc-¦s and Titans are the tools of power , they can only be build in 00 they are damn tough to crack (atleast for non sov superpower) and sov holder (and pl) have massive stocks so they are one part of the problem of small(er) alliances getting into sov 00 Also: Titans get their bridges removed (and get a proper (combat?)role) , sov bridges get a limitation to the owner only
Moving onto Caps: Dreads alone are vulnerable so i dont think they need additional restrictions in terms of movement added. Carrier: Well the are damn hard to bring into ballance , in a super logi role (triage) they are as limited and usefull as dreads . But as Super RR Domis they are indeed a problem (for wich i cant really offer a solution) maybe limiting them to fighter only might be a solution (they are very strong i know but they are mobile drones and mobile drones can fall victim to smart- and dumb bombs
Jumpclones: I would leave JC untouched as they allready have a timer added (19h atleast) Medical clones: I would limit MC-¦s so you could only get one when you go to the station you want one in and create the contract there (If i want a MC in some lowsec or friendly 00 i would need to go there and create one rather than jsut remotely set one) that would in total limit the amount of clone jump you could do per day to two (1: You use the jc and 2: you suicide yourself to your mc).
Blackops: mabye we should think about removing the tech3s from the list of ships that can use the portal , but aside from that i dont think they need major changes either .
What do you guys think about this (very limited) model ? |
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Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
498
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 22:53:00 -
[641] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Sniped for character limit HTH Part of the issue with the current system is the single sprawl of one alliance that is too big to take on no? while its true that capital and home systems doesn't affect the coalition issue, it does affect the sprawl issue. encouraging multiple smaller alliances seems to me to be a way to prune some of the sprawl and combined with the requirement for activity to maintain sov spaces, it would open a lot of space for new groups to gain foot holds. You mentioned 10k Goonswarm members (Grr Goons) I agree that it would penalize goons and other large sov holding alliances, but i believe that they would find a balance between the space they can use and the space they can pay for. Again combine this with Sov needing to be contiguous, Nullsec Alliances wouldn't in general cover three regions, while a coalition might still anyways. It makes sense to me that the farther out from the seat of government a place is, the lesser the control of the government in that location. Much like how lowsec is still Empire sov, but not patrolled by concord or empire navy. Its restrictions are lesser because of its distance from the Government seat.
I dislike the map intel because it doesnt require a person to go to a system and see its utilization, when looking for fights or miners one only has to watch the map for locations in the target area where pilots are active, or have been active in the last half hour. If sov is tied to utilization, watching the map over the course of a day can give a pretty good idea of when a good time to find a fight will be. With the shrinking of individual sov areas, it becomes a lot easier to tell where but not as easy as to tell when. Map data should be removed.
Grav sites, With the changes to many ships warp speeds and acceleration to warp and the continued slowness of barges and exhumers, miners in null do need something to help them not die as soon as someone notices them. changing sites back to sigs instead of anoms is an added amount of protection for miners. And if nullsec ever wants to be independent of hisec importation its pretty important to give miners some protections form the pvp fleets that roam. Its no accident that the vast majority of belts in null systems arent mined out, or mined at all. Buffing ore yields can only go so far if the ships themselves are too vulnerable in a systems belts. When was the last time you sat around for 8 hours "protecting" hulks in system belts? I know that sometimes people will form a HD fleet to try to kill the roaming fleet but I dont know when the last time that actually happened. (this is not to say that it never happens, I am just unaware of when it does, because it seems like never)
Multiple outposts because everyone likes to get things shipped. It also allows large alliances to create the stations they may/may not need to protect their coalition without needing to own the sov in noncontigious locations. Third party People seeding a region can gain access to particular corp stations and not others. It allows Player sov to act like NPC sov and get more activity. However i agree that outposts need to be quite a bit cheaper and the opgrades need to be a lot cheaper. If CCP ever makes outposts destructable, They need to have a lot more flexability in upgrading, Fortress Black Frog Market Station and all that. Modular Outposts? IF null is ever supposed to be more active in its own markets, more stations owned by more people will breed conflict and provide places where third parties can gain foot holds and supply themselves and those in conflict. Personally i would love it if you could oust the sov holders while not disturbing the renters. and simply inherit the serfs as part of the system.
But yes you are correct that the whole outpost system needs to be redone. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:01:00 -
[642] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Ok the reasons why you see those 100-200 man roaming fleets everyday are easy to explain.
- They are from coalitions. Whose individual alliances all live in different regions. But because of jumpbridges they can all come together very easy to form these 100-200 man fleets.
- These 100-200 man fleets don't have anything else to do. They don't have miners or builders to protect in there home space. They don't have logistic pipes to patrol. The only thing they can do is form a fleet big enough to go somewhere to get pvp content and the fleet has to be big enough to deal with what they deem as expected possible escalation.
- Perhaps these pilots are all staging from VFK or something like that. They are doing so because there is nothing for them to do in there home area. I mean they can run some anoms but other than that they are where the action is.
Except this isn't really true. If you live in NPC Pure blind, for example, You will be ~10 jumps out from the home system of 3-4 relatively large alliances (GSF, SMA, CO2, TNT for the case of pure blind) at any given time. Each of those home systems will have many hundreds of dudes at any given time. The same is true for NPC venal or any number of other npc regions. ~10 jumps isn't a lot of distance or time to cover with or without jump bridges.
Maybe with your changes the pvp-minded will stick around their home system and camp a gate to protect their miners, but I doubt it.
Manfred Sideous wrote: I think most would work in a vacuum and most although great in spirit are too easily gamed and hurt the little guy more. You mention the little guy quite a bit. In the past 4+ years, barring a brief stint in sov, I've spent all of my time in little-guy alliances. Let me tell you something about the little guy.
The little guy lives in NPC 0.0 or Lowsec (I'm ignoring the WH duders for now). The little guy in NPC 0.0 uses a handful of jump freighters and carriers to seed his alliance's market hub and provide doctrine ships. He does this because he does not have the numbers to control the sov pockets that lead to his little pocket of space. Even with your changes, he would not be able to hold any of the sov entry systems. So convoys are out.
Take these jump freighters away, force him to go through sov space, and you kill every alliance living in npc 0.0 that isn't syndicate. I mentioned pure blind earlier, let's have a look at it again. 4 NPC stations, all of them a minimum of 5 jumps away from lowsec through goon sov, through a pipe. Guess who's getting their ships through that pipe? Not the little guy.
And pure blind is an easy case. Look at Stain. Stain has precisely 2 systems that are in jump range of non-sov space: NRT4 and T-NN. Only one of those systems (NRT4) has a non-kickout station. From those 2 systems, you can barely range to Saminer or Sagain (Amarr lowsec). Nerf Jump range even the tiniest bit and JFs can't make the trip. Nerf it a tiny bit more and neither can carriers. Your alternative is 60 jumps to the nearest lowsec. Good luck. Remove current jump drive logistics, and you basically **** every npc 0.0 entity living in that region.
But, but, but people will mine and produce their ships locally!
Really? I'll just moon mine/siphon the vast swathes of dyspro or hafnium/other moon goo required to produce my T2 guns, ammo, and ships from my local region since every type of moon goo is available in every region. Sure.
Hopefully, you see the cause for my concern. Your changes **** the little guy in the back door with a splintered broom handle, since he doesn't have a prayer of holding a regional entry system. So his choices are blue-up or go to low sec. Yay, stagnation is fun! |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
710
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:35:00 -
[643] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Really? I'll just moon mine/siphon the vast swathes of dyspro or hafnium/other moon goo required to produce my T2 guns, ammo, and ships from my local region since every type of moon goo is available in every region. Sure.
Hi let me introduce you to Alchemy & Wormhole.
Hello Potato my name is Alchemy you can use me like a cheap ***** to take one thing and it turn it into another.
Hi Potato im Wormhole you can also use me like your little slave to find shortcuts from one place to another. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Cronus Maximus
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:39:00 -
[644] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Cut to not break forums in half.
I understand what you are saying about the little guys needing access but I think that you are only looking at the effect this has on the little guy, not both parties.
Lets for argument sake just say CFC / N3 / PL want no one in null sec, or traveling through their space to get to other space behind it. Right now you are correct that you can simply bypass that space(albeit just barely so in some cases) and I'd also agree that it becomes much harder to do so later on.
But now we have to consider that the same force keeping you from bypassing is also channeling the efforts CFC / N3 / PL have to make to keep you out. For every single choke point that you want to get through they need warm bodies sitting there, or VERY close by to stop you, I can't just sit in VFK and wait for the cyno to go up. Because if I do you are 10 jumps on before I get there.
So now we have some guys living deeper in the territory and some at the borders keeping them secure, but does even that work? now its not just you that wants into null, its every single small alliance in NPC null that is hammer on my door and forcing me to alarm clock. Can the combined forces of all the little groups in null beat a bloc? Almost definitely not, but if a large pool of resources are being spent just keeping people out what about those already in? I open myself up to attack if my combat pilots are forward deployed constantly.
This is to all say nothing of the wormholes Manfred mentioned while I was typing this. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:43:00 -
[645] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Really? I'll just moon mine/siphon the vast swathes of dyspro or hafnium/other moon goo required to produce my T2 guns, ammo, and ships from my local region since every type of moon goo is available in every region. Sure.
Hi let me introduce you to Alchemy & Wormhole. Hello Potato my name is Alchemy you can use me like a cheap ***** to take one thing and it turn it into another. Hi Potato im Wormhole you can also use me like your little slave to find shortcuts from one place to another. Using Alchemy to fill all of your needs for t2 production. Right, good luck with that.
Using wormholes for all of your null-empire logistical needs. Right.........Been there, done that, not doing it again.
I take it you don't actually have any counter points to the post above yours? Unless you REALLY think a full T2 production line is viable with alchemy alone. In that case: lol.
Then again, this coming from the guy that's fine with faster-than-battleship roaming and refitting nidhoggurs, I'm not surprised. It's good that you dropped the whole "helping the little guy" facade though. Much more honest now. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
931
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:48:00 -
[646] - Quote
^ Right because when changing the mechanics of how NS currently operates CCP couldn't ever look at changing the mechanics of how production could be enhanced to help facilitate the changes.
Can I use your vacuum mine is broken. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:51:00 -
[647] - Quote
Cronus Maximus wrote: This is to all say nothing of the wormholes Manfred mentioned while I was typing this.
First of all, running logistics through Wormholes (from stain specifically) is something I have personally done. Extensively. If you legit believe that people will play this game to do THAT on a regular basis, you are horrendously out of touch. At best they'll move to low or blue-up as I mentioned before, which brings us back to stagnation, yay. At worst they'll unsub, but vOv.
Cronus Maximus wrote: I understand what you are saying about the little guys needing access but I think that you are only looking at the effect this has on the little guy, not both parties.
Lets for argument sake just say CFC / N3 / PL want no one in null sec, or traveling through their space to get to other space behind it. Right now you are correct that you can simply bypass that space(albeit just barely so in some cases) and I'd also agree that it becomes much harder to do so later on.
But now we have to consider that the same force keeping you from bypassing is also channeling the efforts CFC / N3 / PL have to make to keep you out. For every single choke point that you want to get through they need warm bodies sitting there, or VERY close by to stop you, I can't just sit in VFK and wait for the cyno to go up. Because if I do you are 10 jumps on before I get there.
So now we have some guys living deeper in the territory and some at the borders keeping them secure, but does even that work? now its not just you that wants into null, its every single small alliance in NPC null that is hammer on my door and forcing me to alarm clock. Can the combined forces of all the little groups in null beat a bloc? Almost definitely not, but if a large pool of resources are being spent just keeping people out what about those already in? I open myself up to attack if my combat pilots are forward deployed constantly.
Here's the thing though: If I can only move stuff when the blocs are busy touching each other (and even then at great risk), I'm not gonna live in NPC null. Why would I choose to live in a place where my supply lines are interdicted 90% of the time? I'll move to low sec.
Is that what we want? People moving out of NPC Null into Lowsec? Because that's what's gonna happen.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
931
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:00:00 -
[648] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: Here's the thing though: If I can only move stuff when the blocs are busy touching each other (and even then at great risk), I'm not gonna live in NPC null. Why would I choose to live in a place where my supply lines are interdicted 90% of the time? I'll move to low sec.
Is that what we want? People moving out of NPC Null into Lowsec? Because that's what's gonna happen.
Better yet, get rid of NPC null altogether, and just make it new conquerable space. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:01:00 -
[649] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:^ Right because when changing the mechanics of how NS currently operates CCP couldn't ever look at changing the mechanics of how production could be enhanced to help facilitate the changes.
Can I use your vacuum mine is broken. So......how much of eve are we going to change to accomodate sov blocs? I mean FFS we're already assuming that fuel alchemy is gonna be implemented which will affect every single region (Hisec (towers, ice mining), WH's (towers), Lowsec (Caps and towers), NPC 0.0 (Caps and Towers), Sov (Caps and Towers)). Jump drive changes will additionally affect Low, NPC, and Sov but also the T2 market in Hisec.
Let's screw with everything just because we cant stop the guys with caps in null sec from setting everyone blue.
Manfred Sideous wrote: Hello Potato my name is Alchemy you can use me like a cheap ***** to take one thing and it turn it into another.
**** it, ALCHEMY ALL THE THINGS! You get some alchemy! And you get some alchemy! NEED FUEL? ALCHEMY THAT **** BRO. Alchemy for EVERYBODY!
Please, take a step back and recognize your solution is terrible if your plan is to alchemy everything. Please and thank you. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:03:00 -
[650] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Better yet, get rid of NPC null altogether, and just make it new conquerable space.
Good luck with that. |
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Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
710
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:08:00 -
[651] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Really? I'll just moon mine/siphon the vast swathes of dyspro or hafnium/other moon goo required to produce my T2 guns, ammo, and ships from my local region since every type of moon goo is available in every region. Sure.
Hi let me introduce you to Alchemy & Wormhole. Hello Potato my name is Alchemy you can use me like a cheap ***** to take one thing and it turn it into another. Hi Potato im Wormhole you can also use me like your little slave to find shortcuts from one place to another. Using Alchemy to fill all of your needs for t2 production. Right, good luck with that. Using wormholes for all of your null-empire logistical needs. Right.........Been there, done that, not doing it again. I take it you don't actually have any counter points to the post above yours? Unless you REALLY think a full T2 production line is viable with alchemy alone. In that case: lol. Then again, this coming from the guy that's fine with faster-than-battleship roaming and refitting nidhoggurs, I'm not surprised. It's good that you dropped the whole "helping the little guy" facade though. Much more honest now.
Look I have not been able to reason with you. You see things your way I and others see them differently. Believe it or not I want people like you in null sec. I want more of you. In fact I would think it would be awesome if nullsec was comprised of small groups like yours . However we will never get there or anywhere close with the current set of rules. Ultimately CCP is going to decide which direction to go. They use part of my ideas or anyones ideas ITT or they might just have another way of doing things we havn't even considered. All we can do is try to have a intelligent discussion about it that might perhaps give them a view of perspective or ideas they may not have discovered themselves. I think nullsec could be self sustaining without being dependant on the tether to empire. You have to use your imagination to explore that scenario. It can't be based off what you currently know and accept as normal. In regards to your comment about nidhoggers there is always going to be some op ship in the game. The thing thats constant is that thing thats op changes has changed many times before and will continue to change.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:18:00 -
[652] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Good Stuff
Look, I agree with what you're generally going for, but disagree with some of the details. Specifically:
-Alchemy Fuel and T2 production line based mostly on alchemy. Alchemy all the things is bad. Alchemy was introduced as a band-aid for supply issues, not a permenant solution for all our woes. -Cutting NPC 0.0 supply lines. People will just move to lowsec, no one is going to stay in a particular area if they're cut off from supplies 90% of the time. -Complete independence from hisec: Might be possible for an alliance with many thousands of characters at it's disposal. Never possible for the little guy though.
Those are three simple points which I feel need to be addressed in any sort of global eve revamp. Because that's what this is. Your not proposing just a change to jump drives. Fuel alchemy itself is a MASSIVE change.
edit: Anyway I've said my piece. Feel free to ignore any/all of it as you see fit. |
DragonOfTheArmory
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:23:00 -
[653] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Peopel with supers already in low sec and that are with accounts suspended. Are they stuck there when they return? Not saying there is no sulution, but we need one.
If this is the single, overriding concern as to why changes should not be made to the capital ship classes in regards to the mechanics by which they operate, any changes at any level will never work and we are left with the status quo.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
931
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:25:00 -
[654] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:^ Right because when changing the mechanics of how NS currently operates CCP couldn't ever look at changing the mechanics of how production could be enhanced to help facilitate the changes.
Can I use your vacuum mine is broken. So......how much of eve are we going to change to accomodate sov blocs?
Well considering that Sov Blocks represent the largest % of accounts (including their lowsec and highsec alts) I would think changing enough to either maintain, or grow the game. Since Conflict is EVE's primary selling point, I would think enough to either add new accessible and engageable conflict scenarios.
The game is not working as it is right now, and the single largest consumer of product in EVE gets smaller every day (that consumer is NS).
It doesn't take someone with very strong math skills to understand that as NS activity declines, as does the rest of this game.
So I would think entertaining massive changes to the games climate to facilitate an increase or at the least maintaining current Nullsec volume would be a very important issue.
As I said a few pages ago, if nothing changes, then the only guys left playing will be the Mining Bots wondering why no one is buying their trit.
Of course that assumes that NS is the only region to get a look at in a restructuring of EVEs mechanics. The game is old, the content is stale, and it is time for a shake up, and as someone who has pretty much exclusively played in LowSec, fixing NS is #1 on my priority list, because the road to NS is through LS and that road has been pretty freaking barren for the last 2-3 years. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1897
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 00:28:00 -
[655] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: So......how much of eve are we going to change to accomodate sov blocs?
Well considering that Sov Blocks represent the largest % of accounts (including their lowsec and highsec alts) Not to be overly pedantic, but [citation needed]. |
Cronus Maximus
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 01:30:00 -
[656] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Here's the thing though: If I can only move stuff when the blocs are busy touching each other (and even then at great risk), I'm not gonna live in NPC null. Why would I choose to live in a place where my supply lines are interdicted 90% of the time? I'll move to low sec.
Is that what we want? People moving out of NPC Null into Lowsec? Because that's what's gonna happen.
My point was not that you COULD get though SOMETIMES, but the pressures that you and many others like you TRYING to get through makes a situation wherein its less advantageous to stop you and more advantageous to just stay in space closer to home that is more defensible.
I'm a bit busy with guests at the moment but I'll try to go more into depth on this later this evening as I am not sure I can fully communicate them now. |
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
596
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 03:10:00 -
[657] - Quote
Manny it is ok they dont have the full picture. Most of the people who are against the idea have never played the game when it was the norm. the don't realize we are leaving cause the game is not what it use to be. It is sad the second generation of eve does not know game that made it great. This by far is the single most important change CCP has to look at . Get us back to the gates and making EVE big again and the WARS NOT FIGHTS EPIC not a dunking match. The game was regional once it can be regional again but it has to be a hard change and create a challenge for all eve players and removing the jump ability and bridging ability of all ships would reset the table and make it so. Call me shallow but playing this game was so mucjh more fun when they was the case |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
326
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 05:42:00 -
[658] - Quote
Is the secret to make the game less appealing for big coalitions? Sov null is ****** yes we get it ad nauseum. Heavily penalise systems with no use. Sov decay. Higher upkeep. Easier to capture. Gate guns for aov owners.
Lots of things. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Draahkness
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 05:55:00 -
[659] - Quote
Nidhoggurs: Nerf warp speed. Wanna use 1000 nids 60 jumps away, have fun travelling for 12 hours, call it 8 hours with rigs.
Suppies for little guy: I already posted this idea but apperanlty in invisible ink. Don't make this nerf to blops, rather increase their bridge range even more. Then the little guy can bring in T2 cruisers and mining barges one at the time with blockade runners.
Moon goo: Remove moon goo, seriosly, let passive income die in fire. Make those materials come from PI, hacking and mining anoms so that eveyone can do it.
Depleting resources: Sounds good on paper but how would it affect 1-station alliances? They work their space for weeks to make their sov as strong as possible and just as it becomes strong enough that a larger entity might not bother, then you get nothing but frig spawns in your anoms and have to go take new sov and start over? |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3673
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 06:18:00 -
[660] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: -Alchemy Fuel and T2 production line based mostly on alchemy. Alchemy all the things is bad. Alchemy was introduced as a band-aid for supply issues, not a permenant solution for all our woes..
Point of order: No opinion either way on "alchemy for ______" but Alchemy was originally introduced as a bandaid and later expanded as part of a comprehensive system to balance moongoo without making "super-moons". Regardless, why limit your thinking? Right now it's a woefully inefficient system meant as a pressure relief valve, but these new additions could easily just be "isotope plus cheap catalyst equals another isotope"
DNSBLACK wrote:Manny it is ok they dont have the full picture. Most of the people who are against the idea have never played the game when it was the norm or they are vets and realize how much isk they are making and how easy it is. They don't realize good people are leaving cause the game is not what it use to be. Fleets are not about navigation and the rule never fly what you cant afford to lose no longer applies. It is sad the second generation of eve does not know the game that made it great. This by far is the single most important change CCP has to look at . Get us back to the gates and making EVE big again and the"WARS" NOT FIGHTS EPIC not a dunking match. The game was regional once it can be regional again but it has to be a hard change and create a challenge for all eve players and removing the jump ability and bridging ability of all ships would reset the table and make it so. Call me shallow but playing this game was so much more fun when that was the case.
The amount of hubris contained in this post is astonishing. Not terribly surprising though Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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