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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Christina Project
Deeper Feelings Inc.
297
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Lets all take into account the case of the Mithril Bikini i.e. end game armor. Why is it that this protects so much better against a wall of fire than a level 2 full body suit of armor? Does this not bug you? Reality states that the full body armor would protect you wayyy better... its full body! That Mithril Bikini would only protect your naughty bits from the fire. Now believe me, I'm all for full mythical protection of my bits, but not at the expense of the rest of me! Now, you combine this end game armor with a sword so big that it dwarfs me. Why the hell would I choose this? Why is the giant sword that is clearly made for a giant given to a normal sized person? I can't even make a chop without jumping to gain leverage! Bah! Whatever happened to the efficiency of normal weapons? It seems like the higher my level, the more awkward my choices of defenses and offensive hardware. I start the game looking like a normal warrior... I end the game looking like a warriors younger brother wielding his hand me downs. Dude ... paragraphs, seriously!
And good night! - When there's a mew, there's a way! - |

Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
2641
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:23:00 -
[152] - Quote
^^I agree with you about the Mithril bikini, but who wouldn't want a big ass sword, especially one that looks like a helicopter blade with a gun inside it? .. when everything else is gone .. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7885
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:24:00 -
[153] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: And to make a similar comparison.. he loves Minecraft 20x more than Defiance.. and Minecraft (to me) does not look visually appealing in comparison. I guess I can just chalk it up to EVE being a type of game he's not keen on playing.
Minecraft used to be pretty fun. I was disciplined when I built a gigantic ***** in the skyline of someone who mouthed off to me on their forums though. Totally worth it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2860
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Lets all take into account the case of the Mithril Bikini i.e. end game armor. Why is it that this protects so much better against a wall of fire than a level 2 full body suit of armor? Does this not bug you? Reality states that the full body armor would protect you wayyy better... its full body! That Mithril Bikini would only protect your naughty bits from the fire. Now believe me, I'm all for full mythical protection of my bits, but not at the expense of the rest of me! Now, you combine this end game armor with a sword so big that it dwarfs me. Why the hell would I choose this? Why is the giant sword that is clearly made for a giant given to a normal sized person? I can't even make a chop without jumping to gain leverage! Bah! Whatever happened to the efficiency of normal weapons? It seems like the higher my level, the more awkward my choices of defenses and offensive hardware. I start the game looking like a normal warrior... I end the game looking like a warriors younger brother wielding his hand me downs. Now I have the image of you in a bikini talking to a muffin....I'm going to have a troubled night I know it. "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
15294
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:33:00 -
[155] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Now I have the image of you in a bikini talking to a muffin....I'm going to have a troubled night I know it.
I don't talk to him... he talks to me! And its not a bikini.. its my Mithril endgame armor!
And finally, lets not be disturbed over my muffin fetish, lets be disturbed because someone over at Blizzard felt it was appropriate to violate a wild boar with rolled coin. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7885
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:34:00 -
[156] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Now I have the image of you in a bikini talking to a muffin....I'm going to have a troubled night I know it. I don't talk to him... he talks to me! And its not a bikini.. its my Mithril endgame armor! And finally, lets not be disturbed over my muffin fetish, lets be disturbed because someone over at Blizzard felt it was appropriate to violate a wild boar with rolled coin.
I blame you guys for this. He had been relatively sane these past few months. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2860
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:36:00 -
[157] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Now I have the image of you in a bikini talking to a muffin....I'm going to have a troubled night I know it. I don't talk to him... he talks to me! And its not a bikini.. its my Mithril endgame armor! And finally, lets not be disturbed over my muffin fetish, lets be disturbed because someone over at Blizzard felt it was appropriate to violate a wild boar with rolled coin. Someone over there dose it consistently though, to enter herds(?) Of them at a time "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
15296
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:41:00 -
[158] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:And finally, lets not be disturbed over my muffin fetish, lets be disturbed because someone over at Blizzard felt it was appropriate to violate a wild boar with rolled coin. Someone over there dose it consistently though, to enter herds(?) Of them at a time 
And people call Eve a game full of twisted sociopaths... at least we don't do things to herds of boars...
....wait... we got livestock and lube for Christmas.....
....my point was ruined by CCP...
Sigh. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
635
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:51:00 -
[159] - Quote
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:Sentamon wrote: Forced friendships through game mechanics, and games sold on pure hype is the highest form of greifing.
to be fair, eve kind of requires you to make friends with people while starting out, and it's generally accepted as being a necessary part of actually accomplishing anything
Agreed, API verified LFG system is still an LFG system and we all know where solo gets you in EVE.
The reputation issue with EVE isn't that there are 'bad people' in EVE. It's that being the good guy is like nailing your shoes on before going jogging. |

Bloody Slave
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:01:00 -
[160] - Quote
I've been playing some other MMOs out there in these 8+ years I'm playing EVE.
Sometimes, CCP do some stuff that annoys me, like Incarna, and I take a break. But I'm always back, always. Why?
English is not my native language but I keep trying to improve it, learn the best I can and the forums out there are a valuable source when working on it, with that said, I read almost every post in every MMO I was playing and I could stumble in some ex-EVE players posts here and there, they are pretty common, you know. Now, to tell the truth, 80% of that posts are positive to EVE when taking comparison with the game they are.
Of course, we don't have dragons, the music/sound can be, pretty much, muted and the graphics are not that awesome nowadays (The Division, as example, will be hitting next year and I think ex-CCP Oveur is working on it, not sure tho).
Back to the question: Why I keep coming back?
1) The community - 9/10 2) Communications between CCP and the players - 10/10 3) Complexity of the game - 8/10 (was 10/10 some years ago but tending to drop for the masses, I guess...) 4) Adrenaline hush when doing some dangerous stuff - 8/10 (was 10/10, same as above...)
That is all I can remember right now, no sarcasm on this post (I never had to warn about being sarcastic before but hey, we need to talk to the masses as well, don't we?) 
If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD) |

Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
406
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:02:00 -
[161] - Quote
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Okay, let's be 100% honest and straightforward for a moment. As a whole, on the gameplay level, this game is ******* terrible. It's slow, it's borderline mindnumbing, it's tedious, it's skill queue online, it's got one of the most wonky and ridiculous physics engines ever conceived (though that's been getting better), it's challenge level is borderline laughable once you get past the first couple of weeks so long as you aren't doing anything stupid like trying to do L4 missions in a Burst...I'll stop there, but you get my point.
The only thing that makes this game enjoyable for anyone with a fully functioning brain is the people who play it, and the **** they do and say to each other. How often do you find yourself docked up, talking to people for hours at a time, because suddenly chat was far more interesting than anything the actual game provides? If not that, how often do you find yourself borderline AFKing the most 'challenging' PvE content whilst completely immersed in a conversation in chat? Exactly. I know actually talking to people and treating them like human beings is wonderful. Judging from your later posts, I think you missed my point entirely.
If we were to take away the scamming, the griefing, the ganking, the blobbing, the harassment, the fleet boobies, the flying d*cks in local, all of these things that supposedly ruin Eve...we'd be left with...well...Eve...and it would be ****, and I wouldn't blame the huge numbers of players who left when they were removed. |

Madam Lash
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:06:00 -
[162] - Quote
Most people are attracted to EVE because of its reputation at least I was initially way back when. I'd read the articles about massive titan battles, huge corporation theft and that nowhere was ever truly safe and thought to myself - I want a piece of that!
Saying EVE has a bad reputation is like saying WoW players are the paragon of what is right with gaming community, the OP has listed a few things about how we as a community are perceived by outside players but there are numerous similar instances in just about any other game you care to mention - the one that springs to mind is the infamous WoW funeral service. My point is that there is a good and bad in any game regardless of what it is - the fact that CCP doesn't go out of its way to 'police' anti-social behaviors with regard to actual gameplay is a good thing. I don't want my hand held and CCP acting like some helicopter parent every time I skin my knee or the local bully gives me a bloody nose.
I want hard, I want cut-throat and I don't want to feel safe and EVE gives me that... also I want a Hello Kitty skin for my Megathron but that's something completely different. |

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
810
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:24:00 -
[163] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Secondly, if people refuse to play a game where being mean is possible, there are already plenty of MMOs to cater to their cowardice. Yes! They must be cowards in real life! I've always said the marines should recruit warriors from these forums because it's home to such brave dragon slayers like yourself. Yay you!
Anyone against douchery must obviously be a coward. |

Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7244
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:30:00 -
[164] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Secondly, if people refuse to play a game where being mean is possible, there are already plenty of MMOs to cater to their cowardice. Yes! They must be cowards in real life! I've always said the marines should recruit warriors from these forums because it's home to such brave dragon slayers like yourself. Yay you! Anyone against douchery must obviously be a coward.
So tell me again where Kaarous mentioned real life? |

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
810
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:33:00 -
[165] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Secondly, if people refuse to play a game where being mean is possible, there are already plenty of MMOs to cater to their cowardice. Yes! They must be cowards in real life! I've always said the marines should recruit warriors from these forums because it's home to such brave dragon slayers like yourself. Yay you! Anyone against douchery must obviously be a coward. So tell me again where Kaarous mentioned real life?
And here comes the troll brigade. Read his post and figure it out (I was kind enough to quote it above). "But but but... he didn't actually say real life so there!" |

Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
2644
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:36:00 -
[166] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Secondly, if people refuse to play a game where being mean is possible, there are already plenty of MMOs to cater to their cowardice. Yes! They must be cowards in real life! I've always said the marines should recruit warriors from these forums because it's home to such brave dragon slayers like yourself. Yay you! Anyone against douchery must obviously be a coward. So tell me again where Kaarous mentioned real life?  And here comes the troll brigade. Read his post and figure it out (I was kind enough to quote it above). "But but but... he didn't actually say real life so there!" I think Kaarous is pretty consistent about referring specifically to in-game behavior and choices and excluding any comments about real life.
I think it's not good that you're not able to cleanly maintain this distinction to make an argument. Troll brigade, indeed. .. when everything else is gone .. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7891
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:40:00 -
[167] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Secondly, if people refuse to play a game where being mean is possible, there are already plenty of MMOs to cater to their cowardice. Yes! They must be cowards in real life! I've always said the marines should recruit warriors from these forums because it's home to such brave dragon slayers like yourself. Yay you! Anyone against douchery must obviously be a coward. So tell me again where Kaarous mentioned real life?
This. Risk aversion has many forms. My wife shoots a pistol better than I do, but she's a carebear in video games. Meanwhile my dad was in the Army for twenty five years and he's a far bigger troll than I am. He was part of the 4chan raid on tumblr the other day. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

Lila Merle
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:40:00 -
[168] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity.
Well said.
One of my favourite things about EVE is that I'm not following a script in which I am some superhero. The theme in "game of pandas" of being the "last great hero" gets tedious.
In addition, I have to assume that when people gripe about non-consensual PvP in EVE that they are seeing it from the perspective of a game in which a lower-level player (or even a decent sized group of lower level players) doesn't stand a chance against a max level character because of the way those game mechanics work.
I think that overall, EVE's reputation is perfectly ok.
|

Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
487
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:45:00 -
[169] - Quote
Bloody Slave wrote:English is not my native language but I keep trying to improve it You write better English compared to me writing in your mother tongue...
One aspect I "fear" (eventually altering the game, if not outright cancelling it) would be someone already mentally unstable gravitating to play Eve and diving head first into all the "evilness" allowed by the game. Instead of them realizing it is but a game, nope, this lunatic would take it to the extremes. Perhaps attend a fan fest and "pod" people left, right, and center...
Dungeons and Dragons, heavy metal music... Eve?
Unfortunately there are people out there but fortunately they have not gone beyond the game if they do play. |

KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
642
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:50:00 -
[170] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied. Its reputation is a reflection of that. Your "ex" player quote is from infinity ziona...nuf said.
Grow up, eve is hard and we make it that way because we like it that way
Agreed. Be sure to find the wall switch now so you can turn off the lights on the way out. CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
|

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1121
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:50:00 -
[171] - Quote
You put 100 people in a game with no rules and all of them start out trying to build and explore, one of them fails at this miserably (Or is miserable doing it) and he decides to scam or steal from two other players, after seeing this behavior goes relatively unpunished those two players decide to scam or steal from 4 other players, the cycle goes on and on eventually taking over the whole community, but luckily 200 more players join each month giving the original and new predators fresh meat to prey on.
It's not that CCP has given the Asylum keys to the patients, well maybe it is exactly like that, but that was probably not the original intent, but it is what we have now and new players are more and more likely to be victims since the demographic is prone to unbalance in the side of predators and not to the builders/explorers.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |

KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
642
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:52:00 -
[172] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity.
Yep. CCP doesn't need their money.
Anyone seen a legit subscriber count in a while? No? Didn't CCP brag, errr, publish that number every year?
CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
|

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7891
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:55:00 -
[173] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote: It's not that CCP has given the Asylum keys to the patients, well maybe it is exactly like that, but that was probably not the original intent. But it is what we have now, and new players are more and more likely to be victims since the demographic is prone to unbalance in the side of predators and not to the builders/explorers.
I love how the concept of game balance literally isn't even on the table for you. Like if the game isn't tipping the scales in favor of "the bulders" aka your own playstyle then EVE is dying.
This is the game for the predators. But not because the scales are tipped in our favor, but because unlike most other games we are allowed to exist in the first place. So yeah, there are a lot of us. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
2082
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:57:00 -
[174] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:One aspect I "fear" (eventually altering the game, if not outright cancelling it) would be someone already mentally unstable gravitating to play Eve and diving head first into all the "evilness" allowed by the game. Instead of them realizing it is but a game, nope, this lunatic would take it to the extremes. Where people do have mental health issues that mean they can't or won't be able to make the best decisions in a game, isn't the primary responsibility to support those people, with those closest to them IRL, where the issues exist?
For the largest part of society that suffer from mental health issues, they do have caring friends and relatives to support them.
On the flip side, there will always be a small number of people who go unnoticed or untreated because they don't have a good network around them.
However, even risk managing that from a game companies perspective, everything can't be wrapped in cotton wool to account for that possibility. It's not a game companies responsibility to manage the RL problems of people. Yet, CCP does react IRL when they find out about RL issues associated with mental anguish and/or mental health issues. I think CCP (and probably many other game companies) should be applauded for what they do to care for the community that play their game. Many companies just keep taking the cash regardless. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7891
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity. Yep. CCP doesn't need their money. Anyone seen a legit subscriber count in a while? No? Didn't CCP brag, errr, publish that number every year?
Well, the wiki entry for EVE says that the subscriber numbers were officially released in December of 2013. So it hasn't been released yet.
Last year was an exception that we heard about early since they hit a nice milestone. But if you think you can interpret silence as being support for your agenda, you are a long way off, Scope. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
813
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:02:00 -
[176] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I think Kaarous is pretty consistent about referring specifically to in-game behavior and choices and excluding any comments about real life.
I think it's not good that you're not able to cleanly maintain this distinction to make an argument. Troll brigade, indeed. I think you can spin this with semantics any way you want. The intent here is meant to insult the person not playing your way by calling them cowards. The rage against carebears isn't that they are "role-playing cowards", it is the attitude that these players have that drive you to say such hateful drivel against them. And Kaarous is no new face at this.
Not everyone finds douchbaggery acceptable behavior. And the kicker is this doesn't make them cowards for thinking this way. |

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1121
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:02:00 -
[177] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Goldiiee wrote: It's not that CCP has given the Asylum keys to the patients, well maybe it is exactly like that, but that was probably not the original intent. But it is what we have now, and new players are more and more likely to be victims since the demographic is prone to unbalance in the side of predators and not to the builders/explorers.
I love how the concept of game balance literally isn't even on the table for you. Like if the game isn't tipping the scales in favor of "the bulders" aka your own playstyle then EVE is dying. This is the game for the predators. But not because the scales are tipped in our favor, but because unlike most other games we are allowed to exist in the first place. So yeah, there are a lot of us. I didn't say that at all. If you show a mode of gameplay that is fiscally rewarding and punitively negligible then players are going to gravitate towards that (fancy way of saying Risk vs Reward) add to that the lack of reward for doing 30 days of building, grinding ... whatever can be taken away by anyone with 5 to 20 friends and an afternoon. It lends to a society of takers, since there is no comparable risk/reward in building (be it personal wealth, structures, ships, communities whathaveyou).
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7891
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:09:00 -
[178] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Sibyyl wrote:I think Kaarous is pretty consistent about referring specifically to in-game behavior and choices and excluding any comments about real life.
I think it's not good that you're not able to cleanly maintain this distinction to make an argument. Troll brigade, indeed. I think you can spin this with semantics any way you want. The intent here is meant to insult the person not playing your way by calling them cowards. The rage against carebears isn't that they are "role-playing cowards", it is the attitude that these players have that drive you to say such hateful drivel against them. And Kaarous is no new face at this. Not everyone finds douchbaggery acceptable behavior. And the kicker is this doesn't make them cowards for thinking this way.
Nope. It is funny to watch you scramble for a reason to be offended though.
By the way, I also find it funny that your intent is to insult the person not playing your way by calling them douchebags. The hypocrisy is quite simply delicious. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1122
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:10:00 -
[179] - Quote
And Kaarous Aldurald get rid of the persecution complex, this dynamic does lend itself to balance, if the game gets to many predators and not enough prey, just like in all habitats, the predators die off with no food to eat and the prey repopulates in relative saftey.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7891
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:15:00 -
[180] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:And Kaarous Aldurald get rid of the persecution complex, this dynamic does lend itself to balance, if the game gets to many predators and not enough prey, just like in all habitats, the predators die off with no food to eat and the prey repopulates in relative saftey.
The person who has posted all about the "society of takers" ruining the game for all the "victims" doesn't get to tell anyone else that they have a persecution complex.
You're quite literally acting one out right now for us.
I mean, if things were in any way what you were describing, where we're over hunting our prey, you'd think we would end up with less ALODs, less afk miners, and less autopiloting freighers. Instead of more. There are so many people out there worth killing that I couldn't even clean out Molden Heath if I had a CONCORD battleship. You guys literally choke the spacelanes in some systems *cough Jita* and you think there are "too many predators"? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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