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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Roland John
United Constructions
0
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello fellow travellers Been playing eve now since 2004, love the game, member for a PVE/Industrial corp for the most part, 10 years in the game, and you think you've seen it all. Back in the day they nerfed Missiles, ah I remember when the Raven was so awesome, and then they nerfed NOS and Neuts, but again we as a people united and figured out new ways to counter both of these nerfs, and all other nerfs to hit new Eden, in the last 10 + years, but finally they nerfed Mining/Research/building/development, way to go guys, I want to put a different word in here if you know what I mean... I mean I should have seen this coming, what with CCP nerfing missions like Enemies Abound, and other such good mining worth missions, or when it became so easy to overpower a HULK, and then we all thought they'd fixed that but I still see Exhumers popping on a daily basis... I know that all these things were done because you wanted the average player to experience more things with the EVE universe, so Scanning, which had been subbed for such a long time became the forefront of the EVE game and its made the game for most more fun and exciting, all the while this was all going along, your Industrialist out there were running missions to pay for the harder minerals you needed to build Capital through Interceptor ships for the masses, because regardless how you look at the game, the common denominator is this is a Market and building backend game. And now you've nerfed that part... I can accept certain things, you want people out of the security of the station, and using POSs and other self-made structures, but making users put all of their eggs in the unstable basket puts the entire system in jeopardy.. Different if you've done the foolish thing of flying all your ships and stuff to NULL to find that what was promised to you wasnGÇÖt there and you have to start over, thatGÇÖs one thing, but now it feels like you want us to do the same in hi sec or where ever, and because you had no internet for a week come back to find your POS in ruins and everything that youGÇÖve been working towards for the last XXX + years gone... and for what? I can even accept all of this, itGÇÖs the game dynamic, but why would you nerf reprocess/refine, whatGÇÖs this 50% BS, or in my case, max skills and i have 10.00 standings with the station that i am in and i get 55%, it used to be you got 50% with the basic refine skills and then, with working standings with the faction you were with this increased your reprocess/refine up to 99.5 or 100% depending if the station you were working with was base 25 or 50%. I get that some things might look good on paper for the average CCP / Capsular, and that certain parts of the market have been out of whack for a while now, but by pissing off the industrialist, who in my mind is the backbone and driving force of this game, and nerfing things that we industrialists have been striving towards, doesnGÇÖt make any senseGǪ unless the plan is that NPC stations are going to produce ships again, and not players, but I thought the driving force behind this game was the eventuality of players being able to build everything in the game no matter where it isGǪ For example, the average player regardless if itGÇÖs a mission runner or player attacker, wants his ship and modules for the lowest price he can get them for, this new infrastructure adds so many hidden costs to the builder and provider of these ships, that the cost to the beginner or veteran player is going to prevent the risk takers to take those risksGǪ If the cost of the average Lv4 storyline mission runner, flying a Tengu T2 fitted was getting it for 3 to 400mill and now has to spend 5 to 600 mill to run a T1 fitted boat, and not getting all the stuff he needs its like not just hindering the system that we have all grown accustomed to and love but in my mind its killing itGǪ Unless there are some new skills that you are going to release that will fix these crazy costs for research and development or, manufacturing and refining, but then, what was the point of players grinding missions to get Efficient standings with the likes of Amarr Navy, was it only to get LP, LP from Amarr corps alas is pretty lame, so what then was the point of players building up standings with faction corps if not to drop the charges for running jobs, renting and reprocessing/refining? Alas what is the point, IGÇÖm at a lossGǪ And in my mind, knowing that I can provide ships from the highly researched BPOs I have, but knowing I cant provide them to people as the cost associated has been overscaled so much, then what is the point, what would you have us do, all go into the fray, a mass war, PVPiers destroy everything and even themselves and not be able to afford replacement shipsGǪ? I know itGÇÖs a bit of a rant but maybe someone here and can help me see the pointGǪ Ive not really touched base of the research and Dev part of things, but I ask you what was wrong with the previous way that indy was?
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Ixidor Zorander
Coffee Club of Cautelous Chaps
1
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Im drunk from shock, after seeing a quote of 140b isk to up a chimera to me 10 I effectively said "well eve indy, it was fun". two of my 3 accounts were R+D/manufacturing. I will be retiring them and removing fuel from posses. The billion isk clothing line was funny, I laughed... This however is on a scale that makes the clothing line look like a grain of sand. |
Clara Tironis
C AND N Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
I totally agree. I too was hoping that the changes wouldn't be so drastic. There are some good things like the new UI on balance. But it will be completely useless if there is a hefty disincentive to actually use it. - i.e. make or research anything owing to the job installations costs being insane.
I know people will say that it will all balance out owing to market forces in time. It may do but it will be a long time before the job costs that I'm contending with in a quiet NPC-industry-facility-free hisec system well away from Jita even start to become anywhere near economic again owing to a very much needed hike in sell prices.
From current numbers, I estimate that there will need to be at least a 100% increase in sell prices before I start another manufacturing job. And that probably just to break even with a (pre-Crius) maxed out for ME freighter BPO. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
675
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Not the issue for me really. Day 1 working out of a station nobody uses much my costs are pathetically small per unit. However the problem is the low cost will attract other players. Doubly so if I hire a team. So this will raise costs. Raised costs mean I have to move house to be competitive, possibly once per month. This is a pain the backside because CCP go out of their way to make sure industrialists can only move stuff as slowly and as dangerously as possible.
Now with respect to costs, the only costs that bother me are fixed research costs on ME and TE. The problem is that anyone new to the game is at a disadvantage not just in time but in the amount they have to sink into raising it up a bit in order to be competitive with existing blueprints.
It actually would have been better to reset all BPs to 0/0 to ensure a level playing field. |
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
890
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ixidor Zorander wrote:Im drunk from shock, after seeing a quote of 140b isk to up a chimera to me 10 I effectively said "well eve indy, it was fun". two of my 3 accounts were R+D/manufacturing. I will be retiring them and removing fuel from posses. The billion isk clothing line was funny, I laughed... This however is on a scale that makes the clothing line look like a grain of sand. Why would you RnD a chimera to Me 10?
Anyhow, the more incompetent producers quit, the more profit there is for the rest of us DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS | Coreli Corporation, Serpentis Loyalists DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS | Small gang PVP & drug production DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS | Ship Replacement program DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS | Multiple roaming fleets per day |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
675
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Joshua Foiritain wrote: profit there is for the rest of us
Profit for what? If everything goes up in price you've not actually made any isk. It's value is the same when you spend it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
4
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
The install cost for the final run of an archon out of a pos in a near deaf system was going to run me 1.2bill if this is how it is all around so much for smaller corps affording to field capitals |
Winthorp
2267
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Can anyone give me a TL;DR on this one? I can't even start to read that block of words. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
769
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Winthorp
2271
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.
What about production costs, i am hearing a lot of grumbling about them? |
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Roland John
United Constructions
0
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Joshua Foiritain wrote:Ixidor Zorander wrote:Im drunk from shock, after seeing a quote of 140b isk to up a chimera to me 10 I effectively said "well eve indy, it was fun". two of my 3 accounts were R+D/manufacturing. I will be retiring them and removing fuel from posses. The billion isk clothing line was funny, I laughed... This however is on a scale that makes the clothing line look like a grain of sand. Why would you RnD a chimera to Me 10? Anyhow, the more incompetent producers quit, the more profit there is for the rest of us
Because 10ME is max research ME for the Chimera BPO ME TE REVELATION62 ARCHON 82 PROVIDENCE150 PHOENIX 82 CHIMERA 72 CHARON 190 MOROS 72 THANATOS 102 OBELISK 162 ORCA 62 RORQUAL 80 NAGLFAR 82 NIDHOGGUR 92 FENRIR 150 Numbers under ME and TE are max research so least use of parts...
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
770
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. What about production costs, i am hearing a lot of grumbling about them?
The cost scaling is going to be relatively volatile for a few days at least, we expect things to balance out after a bit of time.
If you are determined to build right in close to a busy trade hub however, you should expect to have expensive install costs. CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
65
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Winthorp wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. What about production costs, i am hearing a lot of grumbling about them? The cost scaling is going to be relatively volatile for a few days at least, we expect things to balance out after a bit of time. If you are determined to build right in close to a busy trade hub however, you should expect to have expensive install costs. Didn't you see the algorithms with past build stats? |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
676
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.
And with that, Eve becomes marginally less funny. |
munitqua
Moon's Spawn
9
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing? |
Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm. Violent Declaration
52
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. |
Banko Mato
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.07.23 12:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yongtau Naskingar wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Winthorp wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. What about production costs, i am hearing a lot of grumbling about them? The cost scaling is going to be relatively volatile for a few days at least, we expect things to balance out after a bit of time. If you are determined to build right in close to a busy trade hub however, you should expect to have expensive install costs. Didn't you seed the algorithms with past build stats?
Currently it rather looks like a blank start. Systems with only a handful of new jobs instantly skyrocket in terms of their respective job cost index. I had hoped for some adjustments during today's downtime, but apparently the ****** status quo remains.
Could CCP please clarify whether that mess was intentional or did they simply mess up the collection of job data prior to crius release in order to properly seed the algorithm? And how long exactly does the algorithm need to produce meaningful cost indices that reflect the real workload in the universe? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
4
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Posted - 2014.07.23 12:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. You don't lose out on much if you max your skill use an intensive array and plug in 4% implant |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3558
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.
If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.
It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
5
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past. It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility. Is this in an box station or a pos? |
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
169
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. That's because you could get "perfect refine" with far-less-than-perfect skills under the old system. If you actually dedicate time to training "perfect refine" skills now, you will get a bit more than you did before. (Remember that even though refine rates went down, ore content went up too.)
It's not like they didn't have months of warning to train up their refining skills or anything.... Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3558
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past. It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility. Is this in an box station or a pos?
to get the same, a regular 50% station.
To get more would be a POS or outpost. (52% in high, 54% in other pos. Minnie outposts can hit 60% base) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Chuck Dgrow
Sun Micro Systems
11
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hello,
Im a indy since what, 3-4 year now. This is my main activity in eve and the change CCP introduced yesterday need to get balanced hard or the whole economy of eve will suffer from it.
1. Invention of module now take almost 7h in a POS up from 1h15. We are passing from 20 possible job (x11 if you use all your research slot) per day to only 3 possible job for the exact same output.
2. Research for those that had POS setup up for researching their own BPO for the monthly fuel cost now need to pay MAJOR fee + the fuel cost for the same result
3. Manufacture now have another variable to calculate to make sure you actually make some kind of profit and that variable is well .... variable and very hard to forecast at the moment. On top of that, perfect ME BPO now require more material then before patch.
Now to make sure you make profit, you need to calculate theses thing :
BPC Copy install cost
Invention install cost x % probability Datacore Cost x % probability Decryptor cost x % probability (if used)
Manufacture install cost Increased Material required cost
Everything in bold represent a cost increase between 25% and 30% for people that was doing all this with no cost in POS. All of that just because you wanted to break the entry barrier in industry for new player ? IMHO, if that was the real goal behind this expansion, you have failed since it will require even more ISK now to start doing industry if you want to compete seriously with other industrialist out there.
Good thing i'm sitting on a couple of bil so i can sit down for a couple week and look at how thing will go in the upcoming week but for sure i wont be producing anything now until the price go up accordingly to the increased cost introduced by this patch. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
169
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. Out of curiosity, has this been announced anywhere other than some random S&I Thread? I am seeing a disturbing trend of CCP devs dropping major bombs like this in very informal fashion which results in lots of people not knowing about it.
Good communication is important. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
135
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.
Does that mean you're going to refund everyone's install job cost from yesterday so it's in line with the new prices? |
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
139
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
munitqua wrote:Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?
It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3558
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:munitqua wrote:Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing? It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.
Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters.
Depends where you are.
(POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
169
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:munitqua wrote:Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing? It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too. Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters. Depends where you are. (POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost)
CCP Greyscale mentioned in another S&I thread that the install cost show up differently depending on whether you and the BP in question are in a location with the right facility or no. If the BP is somewhere you can't install the job, the install costs come back astronomically high, but they're fine once you put it in the facility. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
772
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today. Out of curiosity, has this been announced anywhere other than some random S&I Thread? I am seeing a disturbing trend of CCP devs dropping major bombs like this in very informal fashion which results in lots of people not knowing about it. Good communication is important.
We discovered and fixed it yesterday. It is in the known issues thread and todays patch notes:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360020 http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crius
CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Kesker
The Sagan Clan Mordus Angels
35
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Posted - 2014.07.23 13:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Kasife Vynneve wrote:The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.
My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.
Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials. If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past. It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility. Is this in an box station or a pos? to get the same, a regular 50% station. To get more would be a POS or outpost. (52% in high, 54% in other pos. Minnie outposts can hit 60% base)
BUT THEY NERFED HALF THE REASON TO HAVE A POS!!!
Surely you aren't going to put up a POS to refine your mission loot? The fuel costs alone make that just stupid. A
A small corp just took another kick in the teeth with the changes here.
Fuel costs Research job costs BP's in the POS
Too much risk and cost vs reward.
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