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KAIZOKU SAMURAI
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Posted - 2006.07.09 21:09:00 -
[1]
For everyone wondering if the Learning/Attribute Skills are "worth it", pay attention:
One of the things I absolutely LOVE about Eve-Online compared to other online games is that you are rewarded for TIME. When WoW came out, people played the first year, reached max level and had all the "uber" equipment. Next thing you know, newbies are showing up and in one month they are the exact same level and running around with the exact same equipment as those one-year players. What's to differentiate between the long-term player and the n00b? Nothing. With Eve it's different. The more time you invest in the game the better your character will be. Period.
What has this to do with the Learning/Attribute skills? The Time reward. Every skill in the game takes a set-in-stone amount of time to train. By that, I mean each skill takes the exact same amount of skill points to raise for me as it will for you, regardless of how we "built" our character. The ONLY thing that will save you some of the time to reach those skill points is by raising your attributes. (See: Learning/attribute skills) Some will argue that taking those skills to 5 isn't worth it for the short-term, and they're right. Eve is a long-term game. If you're planning on playing for just a couple of months, you are better off playing a different game entirely. If you're looking for a game which rewards long-term players by making sure they stand apart then Eve is for you... and it behooves you to get the Learning skills quick. Every minute and every day those extra attributes shave off of skill learning is another skill you will have that another player, who started the game on the same day as you, or that never took the Learning skills at all, won't have! Higher attributes means faster learning:
Eve rewards you for Time... take advantage of it! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.09 21:38:00 -
[2]
Yes, but it's not only time. The skills you can learn are not finite.
If I train advanced int to lvl 5 I would have to train about 60 int/x (or about 120 x/int) skills to lvl 5 (with a rank 2 skill counting like 2 skills). In other words, about 15 mil in int/x skills or 30 mil in x/int skills or a mixture of both.
If I add ALL skills I want to train in the long run (which mustn't necesserily be lvl5 - electronics 5 is a must, but I think I can live with only 4 in cynosural field theory. lvl 5 in propulsion jamming might be nice (much) later, though) I simply do not come to this number. And this is to break even.
Ergo, advanced learning lvl 5 for int would be for me literary a waste of time.
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Andreask14
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Posted - 2006.07.09 21:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 09/07/2006 21:53:33 The level 5 of adv learnings ARE a waste of time.
Tripoli, our resident learning-skill junky, has already posted all relevant calculations here, showing that it takes YEARS of training in each attribute to pay of the training of adv. learnings to lvl 5. ________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.09 22:07:00 -
[4]
It depends. If you take *really* the longterm view and want to make the UBER-scientist and train every science skill to lvl 5 getting the advanced int & mem skills to lvl 5 would save you eventually a few days. If you want to make a combat char you probably won't even break even after training every single support skill you need (or could need) to lvl 5.
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KAIZOKU SAMURAI
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Posted - 2006.07.09 22:14:00 -
[5]
<Shrug> So don't train them. While you're paying for a second account to handle different aspects of the game, I'll simply shift my skill priority and train the skills I want quickly. As stated above, even if having those learning skills only knocks a day off training any particular skill, that's STILL a day faster than you could ever train it. The ONLY people it might not benefit to train all the learning skills up are those who are VERY specialized and have no intent on changing that. If you ONLY plan to do research then so be it... don't train Gunnery skills. But the reality is, even if you train every single skill relevant to research, it would be stupid to quit training your character in other areas. You're still paying the monthly fee... you might as well continue to develop your character in case you decide to try something different. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.09 22:32:00 -
[6]
That is a misconception. You will train it a day faster, but you *finish* it only faster if you ignore the time you spent training the advanced learning skills to lvl 5.
Until you break even you finish training everything a bit *later* than you would have if you hadn't trained the advanced lvl 5. And to break even you need to train a LOT. In order to break even with logic 5 you would need to train almost all of the electronics & engineering skills to lvl 5.
Sure, once you finished training all those skills you care about you can start training those you do not care and eventually break even, but: This basically means that you will finish the skills you care about later (because by the time you are done you *still* haven't saved as much time as you invested into the lvl 5 advanced learning) and will eventually train the skills you did not care about sooner (since there you will eventually break even and actually save time for real).
I do not know about you, but I want to finish the skills I want to train AFAP and could care less if I get a skill I do not want (and simply trained because there's nothing else) 1-2 days later than I would have if I trained their advanced learning skill to lvl 5 six years earlier.
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AceOfSpace
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Posted - 2006.07.09 22:49:00 -
[7]
Advanced learnings to lvl5 are not a waste of time as long as they give you a good feeling inside
-where there's an ace, there's a way- |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2006.07.10 01:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: KAIZOKU SAMURAI <Shrug> As stated above, even if having those learning skills only knocks a day off training any particular skill, that's STILL a day faster than you could ever train it.
In my case, it takes ~14.25 days to train up logic to level 5, giving me 21 logic, which is a ~3.1% gain. In order to "save a day" on a skill, I would need to train a skill for 31.5 days. In order to recover the 14.25 days it took to train adv. logic to level 5, I would need to train 14.25 of these 31.5 day skills, which would take ~15 months of logic based skills.
So only *after* ~15 months (of nothing but logic skills) plus another 31.5 days, would I be saving a day on skill training.
From the Learning skill sticky in regards to the break even time:
Quote:
The Advanced learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 3 Years, 235 Days, 11 Hours, 3 Minutes, and 38 Seconds
Translation: If you trained the advanced learning skills to level 5 and your buddy only trained them to level 4, it would take ~3.6 years before you caught up to him. Do you plan on being here in 3.6 years?
On a side note, if I wanted to start a 2nd char and max out his training skills first, that character would sit idle for an extra ~2.5 months to train from level 4 to 5 adv learning skills.
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R3aliti
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Posted - 2006.07.10 03:34:00 -
[9]
Edited by: R3aliti on 10/07/2006 03:36:15 I have all of the advanced learnings trained to LVL 5 - YES this means that I am in this game for the long haul. I really don't care about those who say doing this is a waste of time - I can only think that two years from now I will have skills trained that many of you won't and why - because I have all of the advanced learning skills trained to LVL 5.
Enough said.
R3
Oh, just FYI - Total skill points 50,513,803
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Ydyp Ieva
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Posted - 2006.07.10 10:16:00 -
[10]
The only advanced learning skill I don't have at level 5 is presence (yep the charisma one). I trained it to lvl 2 though to save 1-2 days on leadership skills to get myself into those nice command ships a bit faster
I don't mind if it will take me 3,5 year for getting it fully paid back. I'm not planning to quit the game soon, did already take a break or 2. And probably will take one or two more. But indeed if you only plan on playing this game for a few months it isn't needed to pump up those learning skills.
And I saw something of rank 2 skills, as I see there are a lot of lots higher rank skills already on the market and I'm sure there will be more in the future. Eve is still extending and in developement
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Mad Medicine
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Posted - 2006.07.11 00:28:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mad Medicine on 11/07/2006 00:29:02
Originally by: KAIZOKU SAMURAI For everyone wondering if the Learning/Attribute Skills are "worth it", pay attention:
One of the things I absolutely LOVE about Eve-Online compared to other online games is that you are rewarded for TIME. When WoW came out, people played the first year, reached max level and had all the "uber" equipment. Next thing you know, newbies are showing up and in one month they are the exact same level and running around with the exact same equipment as those one-year players. What's to differentiate between the long-term player and the n00b? Nothing. With Eve it's different. The more time you invest in the game the better your character will be. Period.
What has this to do with the Learning/Attribute skills? The Time reward. Every skill in the game takes a set-in-stone amount of time to train. By that, I mean each skill takes the exact same amount of skill points to raise for me as it will for you, regardless of how we "built" our character. The ONLY thing that will save you some of the time to reach those skill points is by raising your attributes. (See: Learning/attribute skills) Some will argue that taking those skills to 5 isn't worth it for the short-term, and they're right. Eve is a long-term game. If you're planning on playing for just a couple of months, you are better off playing a different game entirely. If you're looking for a game which rewards long-term players by making sure they stand apart then Eve is for you... and it behooves you to get the Learning skills quick. Every minute and every day those extra attributes shave off of skill learning is another skill you will have that another player, who started the game on the same day as you, or that never took the Learning skills at all, won't have! Higher attributes means faster learning:
Eve rewards you for Time... take advantage of it!
You're forgeting rich people can buy +5 implants and give it to a friend who's starting to play, cutting weeks to their training...
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.11 00:45:00 -
[12]
Exept you need cybernetics 5 for these. More effecient to train the advanced int & mem skills before that. Longterm they help of cource, but shortterm for new chars they are not very helpful.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.07.11 01:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: R3aliti Edited by: R3aliti on 10/07/2006 03:36:15 I have all of the advanced learnings trained to LVL 5 - YES this means that I am in this game for the long haul. I really don't care about those who say doing this is a waste of time - I can only think that two years from now I will have skills trained that many of you won't and why - because I have all of the advanced learning skills trained to LVL 5.
Enough said.
R3
Oh, just FYI - Total skill points 50,513,803
Actually your logic is flawed. Please see the post above yours for the correct interpretation of payback.
Enough said
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R3aliti
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Posted - 2006.07.11 02:10:00 -
[14]
I REALLY DON"T CARE ABOUT PAYBACK. Why must everything have a payback calculated to 12 decimal points. Sheeesh if you run your RL in that manner you must be a truely calculating and very hard person to be around.
Enough Said
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.07.11 09:51:00 -
[15]
ôThat is a misconception. You will train it a day faster, but you *finish* it only faster if you ignore the time you spent training the advanced learning skills to lvl 5. Until you break even you finish training everything a bit *later* than you would have if you hadn't trained the advanced lvl 5.!ö Your wrong there as what you said only applies to old skills. New skills on the other hand you couldnÆt train instead of adv5. Take me I got adv5 then 50 odd new skills came out. I trained all those 50 skills faster then if I had adv4.
Training those 50+ new skills or what ever the number is after getting adv5 is much faster and better then having adv4. Eveytime a new skill comes out the person with adv5 is better off then the person with adv5 and the person with adv5 is training faster.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.07.11 09:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/07/2006 09:54:20 ôTranslation: If you trained the advanced learning skills to level 5 and your buddy only trained them to level 4, it would take ~3.6 years before you caught up to him. Do you plan on being here in 3.6 years?ö Or I get adv5 my buddy gets adv4 a new path comes out like advanced leadership and commands ships, I am ahead of my adv4 buddy fromday 1. After 2 months I a good week or more ahead of him. After 1 year of only training new skills I am far ahead over the adv4 person.
It does not always take months or years for adv5 to be worth it.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.11 10:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/07/2006 10:19:08
Originally by: Pottsey Your wrong there as what you said only applies to old skills. New skills on the other hand you couldnÆt train instead of adv5. Take me I got adv5 then 50 odd new skills came out. I trained all those 50 skills faster then if I had adv4.
Training those 50+ new skills or what ever the number is after getting adv5 is much faster and better then having adv4. Eveytime a new skill comes out the person with adv5 is better off then the person with adv5 and the person with adv5 is training faster.
This is assuming you are actually interested in those skills. If you do not give a rats ass about cosmos missions being technically able to get to hacking 5 sooner than most people is of no help to you.
And, as long as you haven't made it even yet (aka got these 15 million SP in int/x skills) a person without advanced 5 will still have advantages in other, already present skills you weren't able to train yet. Because he could invest into those while you were training the advanced learning skills.
And, lastely, being able to finish new skills 1-2 days earlier than everyone else (and that is for rank 5-10 skills - for smaller ranks your time advantage is measured in hours; and you also will only be one of the first if your attributes are good for that skill) is not really a great advantage. It's mostly a psychological thing. For example, think how big an advantage having a 1-2 day headstart for the t2 research rush would have given you.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.07.11 11:48:00 -
[18]
ôThis is assuming you are actually interested in those skills.ö True you have to be interested so it does not apply to everyone. But it does apply to some people which is why I hate it when people flat out say adv 5 is a waste or adv5 is slower for the first year. I have spent over 1 year training new skills that came out after I got adv5 and a year of training skills with adv5 is much better then a year of training those same skills with adv4. The adv4 person is very far behind as he couldnÆt train those skills intread of getting adv5.
If you have maxed out your currents skills and you know new skills are coming out that you want/need then adv5 is well worth it.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Jamborgg
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Posted - 2006.07.11 12:36:00 -
[19]
The bottom line is choices are good. Eve has plenty.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.11 12:59:00 -
[20]
Actually, it's more like it's slower for the first 3 years, unless you for example only tzrain the int/mem learning skills and then train only int/mem skills.
Originally by: Pottsey If you have maxed out your currents skills and you know new skills are coming out that you want/need then adv5 is well worth it.
This is the key issue. If you have maxed your current skills. The problem is that unless you are very specialized (like training only corp skills or only industry skills) this won't happen anytime soon. For a less than 6 month old char that point is about as far of as the point when you get even with the advanced lvl 5 - 3 years+
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.07.11 15:52:00 -
[21]
The bottom line is Adv learning lvl5 take something like 20mil sp per attribute to break even. People say I am doing well for my age since I have close to 16mil sp, and had I trained adv lvl5 perception, I doubt if even 4mil of that is perception skills, let alone 20mil to break even --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.07.11 22:47:00 -
[22]
To determine just how long you will need to break even with an attribute learning skill you can use this fairly simple formula.
(Your current amount of the attribute + 1) * 2 * Time To Train 1 More Point
This is a rough approximation of how long you will have to train skills involving the attribute (I'm assuming 50% will be primary, 50% will be secondary).
If you want to know how long it will take to break even on Learning itself use this formula
Time To Train Next Learning Level * 50
(This isnt entirely accurate, as learning doesn't actually decrease the time by 2% but instead increases your attributes by 2% I believe... which is slightly worse. It is a quick and dirty way to determine if the next level is worth it tho)
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wismerhil
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:01:00 -
[23]
Hi,
Advanced learning came out about 1.5 to 2 years ago, our best friend Tripoli calculated that it will take about max 3 years to break even.
So i trained them instantly, learning faster after i trained them so still a minimum of 1 year left (and eve lifes i manage the time) i'm gaining SP to all who had not taken the time to learn them.
BTW if advanced UBER learning came out i will train them direct to lvl5
so no waste what so ever, but you don't have to learn them before you have fun in EvE.
Greetings Wismerhil
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: R3aliti Edited by: R3aliti on 11/07/2006 03:51:40 Come to think of it - Nevermind
Or is it that you have just discovered math and like to impress people with you great ability at its misapplication - I am not impressed.
Enough Said
Was the edit your inability to put your compulsive desire to train adv learning to 5 even though you cannot justify it in words?
P.S. My maths and my logic are just fine
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KAIZOKU SAMURAI
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Posted - 2006.07.14 03:15:00 -
[25]
^^ Perhaps... but mine is perfect. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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thesleeper
Cult of the Teabag
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Posted - 2006.07.19 11:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AceOfSpace Advanced learnings to lvl5 are not a waste of time as long as they give you a good feeling inside
Amen to this. Some of us just like the look of fully lvl5 trained skills . I dont really care what it does to my training speed, when you have a whole listing of lvl5 trained skills it makes you feel happy inside (lol, well sad people like me at least)
- the sleeper service - |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.19 11:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: thesleeper
Originally by: AceOfSpace Advanced learnings to lvl5 are not a waste of time as long as they give you a good feeling inside
Amen to this. Some of us just like the look of fully lvl5 trained skills . I dont really care what it does to my training speed, when you have a whole listing of lvl5 trained skills it makes you feel happy inside (lol, well sad people like me at least)
I can see people having adv lvl5 as a badge of honer, but you actually trained up Advanced Charisma lvl5??? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Jenthic
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Posted - 2006.08.20 21:05:00 -
[28]
One reason to train learning skills. I have very little money. I can not yet purchase the skill books for all the skills I want. So while I save up, I train learning skills. This way, when I can buy the books, It goes a bit faster. If you take into account the time I have to wait for the money (which doesn't change), you realize that there is nothing else to do with this time. |
Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.08.21 01:35:00 -
[29]
Ah, I always did enjoy a good Learning skills thread.
I know a lot of people scoff at the idea of maxing out the learning skills, especially because of the 3.6 year payoff.
I've been here 3.2 years.
There's no question I'll eventually be enjoying the benefits of having fully paid off my advanced learning skills training.
The thing I really like about having maxed out my training speed, is that I don't have to wait as long for any given skill to finish. I can train the 5th level of a rank 1 skill in 3 days 9 hours 52 minutes and 28 seconds. Most people are looking at aroumd 5 days to do the same. That alone makes it worthwhile to me. ---
289 of 315 skills trained. |
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