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Vistrix Ferocia
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Posted - 2006.07.10 09:03:00 -
[1]
Ive had an Incursus for a while now and want to buy a Cruiser. Whats the most suitable for me? Im focused on combat mostly.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 09:09:00 -
[2]
Thorax FTW IMHO ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Victor Valka
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Posted - 2006.07.10 09:46:00 -
[3]
Thorax or Vexor.
Thorax is a gunship and Vexor is a drone carrier.
Pick one.
Thorax works well even if using 150mm railguns and Vexor doesn't need so many skills to fly well and field a good few drones.
Drones can sometimes be a headache, tho. Ye have been warned!
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Vistrix Ferocia
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Posted - 2006.07.10 10:05:00 -
[4]
Thanks for the help.
I am right in moving from frigates to Cruisers though, right?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 10:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vistrix Ferocia Thanks for the help.
I am right in moving from frigates to Cruisers though, right?
Most definitely. I've got billions of ISK and 10s of millions of skill points but cruisers are still my favorite ships
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 10:19:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 10/07/2006 10:24:20 Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Cruisers are FTW. Flying bullseyes without T2 fitting (), but FTW. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 10:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? Thought it was more like 250-400 or more.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Vasiliyan
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Posted - 2006.07.10 12:23:00 -
[8]
DS: yes, you might be able to do that, but 80 DPS is much more realistic for someone who's just moving up from an incursus and doesn't have the requisite 3 million skillpoints in gunnery.
Yes, the skillpoint effectiveness gap really is that big.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 12:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
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Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Victor Valka
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Ooo! Nice stab.
You get 8/10.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:12:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 13:13:39
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Actually, if you take off "perfect skills", the damage per second goes down about 10%.
I'd estimate about 400 DPS with tech 1 drones and ammo/guns and medium skills. Its not that much lower, and its not going to make a difference in combat. Most battles are a clear-cut win for one particular side, which is why 5% turret damage implants and the like aren't important.
Player skill is still vastly more important in any situation: skillpoints determine in many ways which battles you can win, but player skill determines whether you fight a battle you can't win.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 10/07/2006 13:34:42 Edited by: Crumplecorn on 10/07/2006 13:31:44
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 13:13:39
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Actually, if you take off "perfect skills", the damage per second goes down about 10%.
I'd estimate about 400 DPS with tech 1 drones and ammo/guns and medium skills. Its not that much lower, and its not going to make a difference in combat. Most battles are a clear-cut win for one particular side, which is why 5% turret damage implants and the like aren't important.
Player skill is still vastly more important in any situation: skillpoints determine in many ways which battles you can win, but player skill determines whether you fight a battle you can't win.
That's not much consolation when not fighting a battle you can't win excludes you from the vast majority of PvP. Also, that 80 DPS is what my rax can do in my best usable fit (not including some T1 medium drones with poor skills) 50 days to Tech 2 guns if I drop training everything else...... ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Ooo! Nice stab.
You get 8/10.
WTF you mean 8/10? What I lose 2 points for? Petition! Actually it wasn't a 'stab' anyway, I was being fully serious. I've been trying to think of a way to effectively communicate what my few months in Eve have told me about a noobs place in the world of PvP, and this sums it up perfectly. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Victor Valka
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Ooo! Nice stab.
You get 8/10.
WTF you mean 8/10? What I lose 2 points for? Petition! Actually it wasn't a 'stab' anyway, I was being fully serious. I've been trying to think of a way to effectively communicate what my few months in Eve have told me about a noobs place in the world of PvP, and this sums it up perfectly.
For the lack of color and different font sizes.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 13:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/07/2006 10:37:20
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Thorax + Med Electrons + Antimatter + 1 Med Nos = ~80 DPS
Only 80 DPS? That's 338 DPS with antimatter (T2 guns, 2 damage mods) and 422 with void (T2 guns, 2 damage mods). Drones with perfect skills give 144 more, for a total of 566 DPS with void.
Do you mind if I quote this every time I see anyone say Player Skill > Skillpoints ever again?
Ooo! Nice stab.
You get 8/10.
WTF you mean 8/10? What I lose 2 points for? Petition! Actually it wasn't a 'stab' anyway, I was being fully serious. I've been trying to think of a way to effectively communicate what my few months in Eve have told me about a noobs place in the world of PvP, and this sums it up perfectly.
For the lack of color and different font sizes.
----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Victor Valka
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Posted - 2006.07.10 14:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Cheer up, mate! It's a good score.
You'll get them next time!
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 14:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crumplecorn That's not much consolation when not fighting a battle you can't win excludes you from the vast majority of PvP.
Not really. Lets say you go pirate in low sec. From experience on an alt, I can tell you that with crap skills and crap equipment, you'll end up with a distribution like (complete rough estimate):
20% of your victims flee 30% are easy kills 20% are tough fights 30% are impossible
With good skills and cheap T1/T2:
30% of your victims flee 40% are easy kills 20% are tough fights 10% are impossible
With uber skills and a uber expensive HAC:
60% of your victims flee 30% are easy kills
Thus while there are fewer fights you can win with a cheap ship, there are still plenty. And with a better ship and more experience, people will more likely run away rather than fight.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Also, that 80 DPS is what my rax can do in my best usable fit (not including some T1 medium drones with poor skills (which turn out to add about 40DPS)) 50 days to Tech 2 guns if I drop training everything else......
It sounds like your math is wrong. Note that I'm using no resistances in my DPS calculations whatsoever, so that may skew them. With two damage mods, it would be very hard to get under 200 DPS, let alone 300.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Peter Stuyvesant
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dark Shikari It sounds like your math is wrong.
Maybe not - 4 heavy electron blasters on a thorax with cruiser skill @ level 3, no damage mods and ZERO other relevant gunnery skills will give about 80dps.
Quite why you'd be flying a gunship with no skills in gunnery is another matter...
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant
Originally by: Dark Shikari It sounds like your math is wrong.
Maybe not - 4 heavy electron blasters on a thorax with cruiser skill @ level 3, no damage mods and ZERO other relevant gunnery skills will give about 80dps.
Quite why you'd be flying a gunship with no skills in gunnery is another matter...
It's not my math; it's Quickfit's. 4 Med Electrons, Decent Skills in gunnery (3 or higher in all the basics), no damage mods. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Peter Stuyvesant
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:10:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Peter Stuyvesant on 10/07/2006 15:10:56 Are you sure you're not looking at the average DPS figure in QF? (its averaged over standard shield, armour and hull resists and as such isn't terribly useful) Look for the DPS on structure figure, or work it out yourself from the fitted gun stats.
(dmg mod/ROF)*ammo dmg amount (24 for antimatter M) = dps per gun
edit: typo ftw
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 10/07/2006 15:11:58
Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant
Originally by: Dark Shikari It sounds like your math is wrong.
Maybe not - 4 heavy electron blasters on a thorax with cruiser skill @ level 3, no damage mods and ZERO other relevant gunnery skills will give about 80dps.
Quite why you'd be flying a gunship with no skills in gunnery is another matter...
It's not my math; it's Quickfit's. 4 Med Electrons, Decent Skills in gunnery (3 or higher in all the basics), no damage mods. ... Knocking off the resists in quickfit brings it up to 115 (+~55drones)
1. 115 + 55 is getting closer.
2. You only have 4 guns. Why the heck do you only have 4 guns?
3. Fit a damage mod or two: the first one gives 20%, the second gives about 16% more DPS.
4. Try named guns. Named blasters are relatively cheap these days (except for maybe the absolute best) and are considerably better than tech 1. For example, a Modal electron will do 20% more DPS.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. 115 + 55 is getting closer. Granted
2. You only have 4 guns. Why the heck do you only have 4 guns? NOS - having cap helps fire guns
3. Fit a damage mod or two: the first one gives 20%, the second gives about 16% more DPS. I <3 my tank
4. Try named guns. Named blasters are relatively cheap these days (except for maybe the absolute best) and are considerably better than tech 1. For example, a Modal electron will do 20% more DPS. This I will look into
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Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 15:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. 115 + 55 is getting closer. Granted
2. You only have 4 guns. Why the heck do you only have 4 guns? NOS - having cap helps fire guns
3. Fit a damage mod or two: the first one gives 20%, the second gives about 16% more DPS. I <3 my tank
4. Try named guns. Named blasters are relatively cheap these days (except for maybe the absolute best) and are considerably better than tech 1. For example, a Modal electron will do 20% more DPS. This I will look into
Well exactly the point.
You can get hundreds of DPS quite easily, even with bad skills, but you might not want to! Sometimes people fit 2 or even 3 NOS on a PvP thorax setup to power their cap and drain their enemy's. And they need their lows for a tank.
I assumed you had 4 guns and no fifth due to grid issues, but a NOS I can definitely understand.
In PvP, going for raw damage is often a dumb idea. My Caracal has never lost to a gank-fitted cruiser in its lifetime, but it certainly has lost to tanked ships. A BoB gank-fitted rupture once dueled me, and it managed to get my shield to a third (about 5000 damage total) in 24 seconds: quite amazing considering I had 50+ resists to all damage types. But that didn't help him, because after 24 seconds, he popped from my fourth volley of Fury heavy missiles.
Recently I lost to a rupture piloted by a pilot with far fewer skill points who easily beat me. He had a plated tank with hardeners and no damage mods, and only used projectiles and drones to do damage, yet he whittled me down far faster than I could break his tank, and beat me.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 16:10:00 -
[24]
Weeeell, I still think a T1-fitted cruiser is an accident waiting to happen, but that's probably because I got wtfpwned (and I mean wtfpwned) once by a Thorax which seemed to be carrying the T2 version of my fit. But hey, I've got two simultaneous wars coming up, and no fear of losing ships, so I'll suppose I'll see for myself soon enough. Thanks for the advice, now I've got to get some sleep. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.10 16:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Weeeell, I still think a T1-fitted cruiser is an accident waiting to happen, but that's probably because I got wtfpwned (and I mean wtfpwned) once by a Thorax which seemed to be carrying the T2 version of my fit.
Well generally if you have two equivalently setup ships, one T2 and one T1, obviously the T2 will win! There's little doubt about that.
The trick is: Don't let that happen
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 16:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Crumplecorn Weeeell, I still think a T1-fitted cruiser is an accident waiting to happen, but that's probably because I got wtfpwned (and I mean wtfpwned) once by a Thorax which seemed to be carrying the T2 version of my fit.
Well generally if you have two equivalently setup ships, one T2 and one T1, obviously the T2 will win! There's little doubt about that.
The trick is: Don't let that happen
But if you fly T2, there is no T3 to beat you. So T2 fly around fighting and pwning T1, while T1 fly around (given the rarity of equal opponents in my experience) just getting pwned. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ |
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