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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
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Posted - 2014.08.06 11:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
So many people in this thread not realising this is only really relevant in PvP and is a great shame that BS are basically left alone to die in that area (minus epic fleet warfare).
People could potentially live with the speed, if that speed brought worthy trade offs, but it just doensn't.
I can almost picture an image where it looks and feels kinda cool: that the battleships are slower and their arrival on grid represents some serious pain about to come in, with small ships darting about trying to finish a target and disengage before the big guns can respond.
However the reality is people just leave them at home because it's just not worth it. They are as ponderous as a woken giant, but about as threatening as a puffer fish. All show and no go. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
248
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Posted - 2014.08.07 14:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The problem is not battleshisp being slow. The problem was battleships being made effectively HALF as mobile as they used to be .. but without ANY compensation.
Battleships should ALL have received GENEROUS DPS, EHP and Capacitor buffs to compensate.
I would love battleships to remain very different from the small ships. Slow.. but with POWER to justify that slowness.
I would for START give 15% more damage 15% more EHP on all layers, about 20% more Capacitor , some 10-15% more lock range and some 30% more cargo hold.
Make battleships WORTH the time you take to move them.
Indeed, as I said, they dont have the trade offs against the slow.
Frankly I'd like to see BS get bonuses right down the weapon sizes (like how the rattlesnake does for its launchers).
So you can fit a point defence frigate murderer than can't fight big stuff, or a midsized anti-cruiser platform or the traditional anti-BS level weapons.
So their "effective" DPS increases yet without real power creep and at a trade of fitting options. Imagine a fully bonused RLML typhoon landing on a frigate gang - that's the battleship we'd all fear It should, however, remain balanced because it wouldn't be able to hurt cruisers very well much less anything bigger. It would be a start to clawback some of the drawbacks vs their slow speed.
Alternately, a flat EHP/DPS boost to compensate for NEEDING to add the warp speed kit might be an option, but I'm less enthused by that as it could have a lot of unintended consequences for when the speed isnt a factor. I prefer the more dynamic option. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The problem is not battleshisp being slow. The problem was battleships being made effectively HALF as mobile as they used to be .. but without ANY compensation.
Battleships should ALL have received GENEROUS DPS, EHP and Capacitor buffs to compensate.
I would love battleships to remain very different from the small ships. Slow.. but with POWER to justify that slowness.
I would for START give 15% more damage 15% more EHP on all layers, about 20% more Capacitor , some 10-15% more lock range and some 30% more cargo hold.
Make battleships WORTH the time you take to move them. Indeed, as I said, they dont have the trade offs against the slow. Frankly I'd like to see BS get bonuses right down the weapon sizes (like how the rattlesnake does for its launchers). So you can fit a point defence frigate murderer than can't fight big stuff, or a midsized anti-cruiser platform or the traditional anti-BS level weapons. So their "effective" DPS increases yet without real power creep and at a trade of fitting options. Imagine a fully bonused RLML typhoon landing on a frigate gang - that's the battleship we'd all fear It should, however, remain balanced because it wouldn't be able to hurt cruisers very well much less anything bigger. It would be a start to clawback some of the drawbacks vs their slow speed. Alternately, a flat EHP/DPS boost to compensate for NEEDING to add the warp speed kit might be an option, but I'm less enthused by that as it could have a lot of unintended consequences for when the speed isnt a factor. I prefer the more dynamic option. Power creep has occurred with almost every other sub-capital class in the game. The only hulls that haven't seen power creep are battleships and CBCs. That's why they're not very good right now. :P Personally, I think that a boost to the battleship's non mobility related stats is the way to go. It might seem a little heavy handed, but battleships saw their mobility more than cut in half, while frigates and destroyers were given much more mobility. Moreover, the combat power of most of the light ships was increased to some degree. I think that rather than tamper with large size weapons, battleships should receive a 25% role bonus to all damage, that way attack battlecruisers are unaffected. All battleships should probably receive a 50% across the board bonus to EHP and a 100% bonus to their capacitor, drone bay and cargo bay. There should be new lines of modules and plates as well, to help bridge the gap. The current large size reps should be balance towards CBCs, and a new line of extra large sized plates, cap boosters, and local reps should be introduced to go along with a battleship hull rebalance.
Well I am specifically trying to avoid it by letting them use downsized weapons. I.e. giving a mega bonuses to 250mm rails - I'm not talking about increased large weapon DPS.
What you'd get is a huge EHP ball of frigate/cruiser sized weapons. They would still have all the inherit battleship weaknesses - high sig, slow, poor locking times.
BUT it would allow them to bring DPS to the field on a given target size.
So, hypothetically, if you have a typhoon with RLML, yes - she will chew frigates up and spit them out, but would be extremely vulnerable to even a couple of cruisers, even moreso a bigger hull.
I don't think it is power creep so much as just a little more flexibility.
I can't see it affecting fleet doctrines but it'd be an interesting shakeup in the small gang meta. I don't realistically see everyone dropping to nothing but BS as a result - they are still too slow and cumbersome for that. Agility is still king and that will never change in small roams, but a few battleships warp speed fit with bonused downsized weapons might start popping up.
You could argue it is power creep further down the food chain, but I don't think it'd create much imbalance given their inherent weaknesses - even if a dozen such ships jump a cruiser gang - the cruisers will almost certainly be able to bail out, potentially taking a ship with them on the way.
It's just a concept, it should be refined but I like the idea of it. Perhaps we'd see people bringing one to swat tackle - then maybe others evolve to bring a regular battleship to swat the anti-tackle machine and so the evolution could continue.
More options are good. More options that (I dont believe) cause serious power shift and let us use underused things in PvP again is even better.
Edit: I suppose this would in essence turn them into "super heavy" battlecruisers. It'd be a nice option |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes like I say, superheavy BC. But BS hopefully have enough native EHP and DPS that they can afford the warp speed shiny bits.
Though now you bring it up, BC need a role beyond obvious bait/alphacanes |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 11:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Like I said, it was an additional option, not a role transformation. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Spc One wrote:I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea.
Nothing stopping AF rigging for it too. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Surely a BS managing it isn't a problem then :) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
260
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 06:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.
Indeed, I'm not sure we should limit entire ship lines based on people maybe having a (non-trivial cost) implant set in.
We don't balance fast kiters because of snakes, for example. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
321
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 22:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Even if it did let you warp that fast, so what?
You expend all those slots AND precious implant slots to go faster...I wouldnt consider your results imbalanced as you still have a stupid align time, are far less effective in BS combat than a BS fit more traditionally. Or more specifically no more or less imbalanced than any other implant set.
/shrug. Just seems to me that it's another of eves trade offs, except today its not worth the trade. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
321
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 00:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sigras wrote:HACs are more offensive and battleships are more defensive, the reason we see no battleships on the field is because nobody is actually having to play defense right now because of the nature of Sov warfare in Eve. Everything is just border skirmishes, and nobody is actually fighting over sov.
Agreed. When all is said and one BS are regularly the fall back fleet when disengaging is not an option.
That said, I'd like that to be not their only role in life. It's a fine role to be sure, but it shouldnt be the only one*. Pigeon holing is [generally] bad.
*outlier/niche/bizarro/oddball/you-know-what-I-mean fits dont make a meta. Break the oddballs if that is what it takes to make a new meta work imo. |
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