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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12675
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Posted - 2014.08.12 03:31:00 -
[61] - Quote
does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
179
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Posted - 2014.08.12 03:49:00 -
[62] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something? Everyone moved to HACs and caps
Wait, everyone was already in HACs and caps.
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Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
220
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Posted - 2014.08.12 04:27:00 -
[63] - Quote
I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12676
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Posted - 2014.08.12 04:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
Spc One wrote:I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2014.08.12 07:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:tbh, i have no idea why smaller ships fly faster in eve. Sure smaller ships are more manoeuvrable, naturally, but faster.. i have my reservation.
The bigger the ship, the more muscle it should technically have (within a gravity well).
compare any animal you like.
Big cats are faster than smaller cats. Big dogs are faster than small dogs. Bigger birds are faster than smaller birds. Large flightless birds are faster than smaller flightless birds.
If you wanted to be pedantic mass is meaningless in space anyway - something the size of the moon, something the size of an ant.. is all relational. If anything you'll expect the engines on a providence to unleash more torque than that of a frigate - and if mass is meaningless, more torque on the engines, more thrust means higher top speed.
But this is EvE, where a spud gun does the same damage as a 3000 kt nuke.
I put it down to a 'wizard did it'
http://www.speedofanimals.com/animals/killer_whale
EvE is more like being in water than being on land or in the air. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1539
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Posted - 2014.08.12 10:15:00 -
[66] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something?
We want adaptation. But we want something given to the now much slower ships to justify them more. Just sit and accept things like an impending doom is not adapting. Battleships are now only used seriously when they travel trough titan bridges. They need some tweaks to justify them for operations that move the traditional way. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1539
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Posted - 2014.08.12 10:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: DPS and EHP buffs are great and all, but I will be damned if I am going to fly BC's or bigger through more than one gate now in dynamic ways. Sure people will bring them to timer-based fights etc, but when did we decide that regular flying of BC's and bigger should be so fricken HEINOUS??
F
Well if the battleships are powerful enough to warrant the delay on their movement they will still be used. But as of now they are barely stronger than hacs, and weaker than t3. Is the same issue with command ships. They are barely strogner than t3 on link bonuses, so everyone uses t3 because of warp speed.
Slow warping things need to be significantly more powerful. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
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Posted - 2014.08.12 16:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something? We want adaptation. But we want something given to the now much slower ships to justify them more. Just sit and accept things like an impending doom is not adapting. Battleships are now only used seriously when they travel trough titan bridges. They need some tweaks to justify them for operations that move the traditional way.
We still fly them via gates and everything gets sent via a titan bridge if there is one available. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
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Posted - 2014.08.12 16:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Spc One wrote:I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea.
Nothing stopping AF rigging for it too. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
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Posted - 2014.08.12 16:45:00 -
[70] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spc One wrote:I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea. Nothing stopping AF rigging for it too.
They wont for the same reason they don't now. Its a bad idea and unnecessary. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
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Posted - 2014.08.12 16:51:00 -
[71] - Quote
Surely a BS managing it isn't a problem then :) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
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Posted - 2014.08.12 16:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Surely a BS managing it isn't a problem then :)
Yes it is. Interceptor like battleships are not a good idea. The current system is fine, people just need to learn how to fit their ships. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1277
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Posted - 2014.08.12 17:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spc One wrote:I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.
I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea. Nothing stopping AF rigging for it too. They wont for the same reason they don't now. Its a bad idea and unnecessary. I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
Even if you ascendancy or hyperspatial them, you are gimping their fits big time to do it (compared to standard slaves/crystals and trimarks/extenders), and still have the long align times to deal with...
Fully gimped for speed, you might do 7.4 AU, but a base Crow is still doing 8 AU with ridiculous align time...
Don't like that, and perhaps ascendancy implants themselves should be nerfed?
The key here is that BC's and BS's shouldn't suck to fly, and today they do. Bigger artillery pieces like dreads and caps, sure I can buy the thinking around slowly rolling (or bridging) those around, but BC's and BS's are front line ships. Remove the suck from the hull, don't make me rig/implant to counter the suck; those should be 'boosters', not 'suck mitigators'
F
Would you like to know more? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
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Posted - 2014.08.12 17:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
All battleships can hit over 8au with your plan. The mach will get over 12au.
This is not a good idea. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1277
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Posted - 2014.08.12 17:21:00 -
[75] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
All battleships can hit over 8au with your plan. The mach will get over 12au. This is not a good idea. All smaller ships can still go way faster if selfsame rigged/implanted. The delta in speeds remains, especially when you concede that align times would remain the same.
Fitting said BC's and BS's that way would severely gimp their fits to achieve those speeds. (I also hazard to guess that not many would choose to so-fit a Mach and take it to battle, and would only let you pull their slave sets and trimarks from their cold dead hands...) Theoretical is not always reality.
Finally, you incorrectly assume complimentary changes to ascendancies/hyperspatials themselves aren't on the table. Off the cuff, I might suggest you also reduce the effectiveness of ascendancies/hyperspatials based on ship mass, once you get the base hull speeds right....
Which today they aren't. BC's and BS's just suck, and they shouldn't. They aren't fricken dreads or caps.
F Would you like to know more? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
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Posted - 2014.08.12 17:43:00 -
[76] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
All battleships can hit over 8au with your plan. The mach will get over 12au. This is not a good idea. All smaller ships can still go way faster if selfsame rigged/implanted. The delta in speeds remains, especially when you concede that align times would remain the same. F
Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).
Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1277
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Posted - 2014.08.12 18:03:00 -
[77] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
All battleships can hit over 8au with your plan. The mach will get over 12au. This is not a good idea. All smaller ships can still go way faster if selfsame rigged/implanted. The delta in speeds remains, especially when you concede that align times would remain the same. F Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates). Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship. Who are you to say battleships can afford to lose rigs compared to smaller ships, thats pretty arrogant. I assure you the increased buffer from trimarks/slaves are of great importance to many BS pilots.
(I think perhaps you meant to say you were a clown-car pilot instead of a BS pilot?...)
Also, unless you are just trolling at this point (or willfully ignorant/dyslexic/etc), I clearly suggested hyperspatial/ascendancy nerfs to address your whiny 'BS's would go to fast' concerns, could be done on a mass basis, so how does that equate to 'nerfing literally everything'? Also, weren't people able to to move ships bigger than Cruisers around before ascendancy implants were available?...
I tried to follow your 'logic' dude, but its pretty clear you've entered the troll zone.
F Would you like to know more? |
Matius Udan
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
Personally I think big combat ships should have a decent warp speed as you can assume bigger engines but take longer to accelerate to their top speed due to their bigger mass. Large non combat ships shouldn't warp quickly as there is no tactical or strategic advantage. However deepspace transports or anything made with a military purpose could have faster warp speed with mass related acceleration. |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
126
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.
There have been plenty of good arguments, you just refuse to listen to them.
Battleships are still used, I'm sure there's a chart some where to prove this. There isn't any real problem here, battleships are powerful and hard to kill when used correctly, being slow is just a drawback to their strength as ships. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
257
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:42:00 -
[80] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).
Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship.
Some battleships can. Most can't. This issue only reinforces the current state where the Megathron is the only BS used for shooting things (as opposed to the Armageddon and Scorpion) that is worth flying at all. 8 lows and trivial fitting means it's easy to make up for the loss of rigs, you can't do this on Amarr BS (needs fitting/cap mods) or Minmatar BS. (doesn't have the slots to begin with) |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12684
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Who are you to say battleships can afford to lose rigs compared to smaller ships, thats pretty arrogant.
Most likely the only person in all of EVE who pilots battleships fitted for warping as fast as frigates in pvp.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: I assure you the increased buffer from trimarks/slaves are of great importance to many BS pilots.
Handy but not needed. Battleships get enough EHP without rigs.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:(I think perhaps you meant to say you were a clown-car pilot instead of a BS pilot?...)
Also, unless you are just trolling at this point (or willfully ignorant/dyslexic/etc), I clearly suggested hyperspatial/ascendancy nerfs to address your whiny 'BS's would go to fast' concerns, could be done on a mass basis, so how does that equate to 'nerfing literally everything'? Also, weren't people able to to move ships bigger than Cruisers around before ascendancy implants were available by your 'nothing to see here' mentality?...
I tried to follow your 'logic' dude, but its pretty clear you've entered the troll zone.
F
You want to nerf a lot of stuff and create a huge headache of CCP just so you don't have to make fitting choices. Think your too slow? Fit a rig and get those implant for cruiser warp speeds. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12684
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Posted - 2014.08.12 20:03:00 -
[82] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:baltec1 wrote:Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).
Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship. Some battleships can. Most can't. This issue only reinforces the current state where the Megathron is the only BS used for shooting things (as opposed to the Armageddon and Scorpion) that is worth flying at all. 8 lows and trivial fitting means it's easy to make up for the loss of rigs, you can't do this on Amarr BS (needs fitting/cap mods) or Minmatar BS. (doesn't have the slots to begin with)
Sure you can, you only need one rig slot.
These same people didn't fly battleships when roaming back before the warp changes for "reasons". They will always have reasons to not fly them. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
258
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Posted - 2014.08.12 21:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
260
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Posted - 2014.08.13 06:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.
Indeed, I'm not sure we should limit entire ship lines based on people maybe having a (non-trivial cost) implant set in.
We don't balance fast kiters because of snakes, for example. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12685
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Posted - 2014.08.13 07:03:00 -
[85] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.
So use rigs and the low slot mods, same result. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1279
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Posted - 2014.08.13 19:18:00 -
[86] - Quote
I disagree baltec1, fittings or implants shouldn't be used to 'un f#ck' a f#cked hull... Adapt to scenarios, yes. Enhance, yes. Even close a single resist hole, sure. But not to un-f#ck.
My premise is that as front-line ships (and not dreads or capitals), BC's and BS's need to be of a class that can still nimbly move system to system in tactical advances to battle, and you should achieve that without gimping a traditional BC/BS fits or implant use....
Interceptors are fast because of their base hull attributes, not because of fitments, rigs or implants; that is icing....
BC's and BS's however are f#cked now in base mobility, slow as molasses with no substantive compensating plusses in DPS or EHP vs T3's or even HAC's (which are way faster to boot)...
Lets put it another way...movement through EvE systems with a spaceship is more central and core to base game play, than any other mechanic. Flying spaceships is first and foremost what we do, whether we pvp, pve, haul..whatever...
That activity must always be enjoyable
Dreads and caps (as artillery pieces) do this in fun ways by using cynos. Zap! Your there....
BC's and Battleships however have had their base movement gimped, and in so doing injected an unnecessary dependency on un-f#ck rigging or implanting them just to FLY?
That is NUTS.
Let's boil it down...
At its core, someone should be able to undock a fricken T1 Abbadon and go 5-10 jumps through jump gates, without wanting to put a goddamn pistol in their mouth (nor loading up on hyperspatial rigs or ascendancy implants to counter that BASE SUCK IN THE HULL...)
Again, modules, rigs and implants should be for scenarios and variability of choice, not basic mechanic UN-F#CKING.
Ultimately, all I propose is BC's and BS's be a little faster so they are simply fun and FLYABLE again as solo/small-gang ships traversing gates, and you claim the sky would fall if done? Hardly.
F Would you like to know more? |
Pidgeon Saissore
DNS Requiem Brothers of Tangra
38
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Posted - 2014.08.14 08:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
To anyone who challenges the physics of it this is about Warp not regular travel. You are literally compressing (There is no correct term for it but that's as close as it gets) the space through which you are traveling. You then move through your compressed space normally. Bigger warp drive means tighter space which means multiplying your normal movement by more. If you want to apply that reasoning to the game the maximum warp speed should be more or less constant throughout the ship classes, with the exception of ships designed for faster warp, though acceleration would vary considerably. If you want to apply even more real physics to the game there shouldn't be any max speeds, only acceleration.
As for what I think the game should be: the current state is acceptable though I would like my battleships to move faster. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1368
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Posted - 2014.09.08 15:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
I flew an Abbadon in a tactical advance to battle recently. It gave me a sad.
When did we decide BS's, BC's (and even Cruisers) would be sluggish 'front of the line' ships, that are dragged through multiple gate jumps like they are stuck in molasses?
Again, I get the need for a delta, but the baseline IMHO is that BS's should be in the range of 2.7 AU warp speeds so they are at least fun to fly again; without gimping their fits or implants to mitigate bad base speeds.
The more I watch other upcoming games (Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen), the more I can't help compare the slow moving sub-caps of EvE, with the zoom zoom zoom! I am seeing in their vids...
F
Would you like to know more? |
Vic Jefferson
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
46
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Posted - 2014.09.08 18:56:00 -
[89] - Quote
The change to 100mn MWDs is a step in the right direction, but they are still functionally clumsy and impractical without a titan bridge. Seems odd that an entire class of ships should be entirely reliant on access to a titan.
Gila are 400m in Jita, Rattlesnakes are 460m. GIla does everything well and sees demand feed its prices, whereas the bloated Rattlesnake market barely can unload the things as demand is so tepid. While there are certainly other factors playing into this, a 60m price difference between them is at least an indicator of how bad a spot BS are in generally at the moment. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
246
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:16:00 -
[90] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sigras wrote:The Eve universe needs to be bigger not smaller...
Travel should be slower not faster. My guess is that you are a miner. Because only a miner would say "more tedium please!" My guess is that you are a WoW player, because only a WoW player wants instant gratification at the expense of the game
So, spending more time travelling between content is a good thing?
......wut...... |
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