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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
Chandoraa
Negative Density Disavowed.
9
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Posted - 2014.09.12 13:02:00 -
[2191] - Quote
The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously
The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.
My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.
I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.
I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.
Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.
Thanks.
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Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
141
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Posted - 2014.09.12 16:07:00 -
[2192] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously
The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.
My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.
I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.
I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.
Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.
Thanks.
The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
200
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Posted - 2014.09.12 17:36:00 -
[2193] - Quote
Saisin wrote:The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.
Single dictor / HIC + single dread = dead capital with the current mechanics.
Or you could jump a carrier in first, cloak, then jump back when someone tries to close it with another capital.
What if there were sleepers on both sides of the wormhole, like nullsec gate rats? Amount and size would depend on a combination of "your" hole, and the other hole. Increased risk, like CCP wanted, and they can remove the spawn distance, like anyone with a brain who lives in wormholes wants. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
813
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Posted - 2014.09.12 22:18:00 -
[2194] - Quote
Saisin wrote: The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.
But the flip side also applies - small groups are utterly ****** if they open into a larger group who is active and they want to close - whereas the bigger corps can send in a dozen jamming tengus, etc. and keep you from pointing/webbing the capital on its way back to the hole if they really wanted.
Plus the point I and other have been trying to make in that the larger majority of the time those people simply aren't there to bring in lokis and rapiers, etc. and catch me collapsing - while I'm not the most prolific WH collapser in eve over the last almost 5 years I've collapsed 100s of WHs and so far to my recollection only twice has anyone even been there to try and catch us - one of those times ending badly for them as half their forces jumped ahead to try and catch the orca and the orca coming back cut the other half including their logis off. |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
3
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Posted - 2014.09.13 03:53:00 -
[2195] - Quote
So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances? |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
84
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Posted - 2014.09.13 06:01:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages AGAIN in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances?
Fixed
It doesn't matter at this point. I don't think ccp has any plans on rolling this back no matter what we say. So some people will grumble but adapt. Some will grumble and leave. Of course the main reason I have opposed this change is BECAUSE I dont want people to have a reason to leave. But it is what it is now. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
815
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Posted - 2014.09.13 13:05:00 -
[2197] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Scrubnbubble wrote:So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages AGAIN in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances? Fixed It doesn't matter at this point. I don't think ccp has any plans on rolling this back no matter what we say. So some people will grumble but adapt. Some will grumble and leave. Of course the main reason I have opposed this change is BECAUSE I dont want people to have a reason to leave. But it is what it is now.
For me its not so much that I don't like the change - I don't like the change and it seems ill fitting to me based on years of living in wormholes - but I also recognise that sometimes changes have to come for one reason or another that I don't like but that is where the rub is - there has been no dialog, no addressing concerns*, etc. its just been rammed through regardless and in the long term that is in no way a good thing for the game - even if it does somehow end up having a net positive effect.
* Would be different if it was just general grumbling but some people have made very well reasoned arguments with some pertinent considerations that simply should not have been left unaddressed - even if the points they brought up were invalid (not saying they were). |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
55
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Posted - 2014.09.13 14:37:00 -
[2198] - Quote
If your sitting in a bucket of crap just because you get used to it dose not make it any less of a bucket of crap.
They asked for well reasoned ideas and explanations of why we did not like the changes and which ones. They were put forth several times in this thread with great reasoning why and it comes down to the fact that the only two things about last patch were disliked or just useless
Mass jump distances are greatly disliked due to it forcing some players out of j space or just going inactive
Frig holes are frowned at and kinda useless to a point although i have seen some corps using them to get fights.
The ball is now in ccp's court. I really wish some of the actual DEV"S Would Create a few Toons and move into Wormholes and live here for a year or two. That is the only way to see what and were we need stuff Since they don't Listen to The Pilots That live there . Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
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Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
3
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Posted - 2014.09.13 15:45:00 -
[2199] - Quote
Any dev is welcome to join my corp, then you can see just how small corps try to function in WH space now. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
28
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Posted - 2014.09.13 19:17:00 -
[2200] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:Any dev is welcome to join my corp, then you can see just how small corps try to function in WH space now.
Fozzie might be bored running levle 4s in his Kronos.
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Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
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Posted - 2014.09.13 20:58:00 -
[2201] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:(...) I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point.
Cannot wait for such blog. It will prove if we were mostly right or not. I still hope that I was wrong and it was overall positive change but still wonder what was aim for such change and what statistics will be taken in to account. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
62
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 21:08:00 -
[2202] - Quote
Mr. Dreekus! Show me your face! |
Delekon
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 19:27:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Apocrypha was good while it lasted, the best moments i ever enjoyed in a game.
Now the Hyperion exodus has begun with high-end space turning into a desert. As the drought started the herbivores (carebares) left first and now the carnivores are following suite. It must be hard to trash an area of the game the size of lowsec in a matter of weeks.
Main thoughts: 1. When a space is suffering, you should add more content instead of making living there even harder. 2. Trust the community and listen to it's demands. They may not be game design experts but they do know a lot of things. 3. Keep the agenda transparent: saying you like emergent gameplay and then driving pilots away does not build up trust. 4. When an idea does not work out: be mature, admit guilt and roll back. Now we have a whole community suffering and leaving over someone's pride as a designer.
For the record i have no clue if this idea was good or bad, i just worry about how feedback was handled and how the community was treated. The fact that pilots are leaving is what is bothering me! Strike 1 was the nestor, strike 2 was the wh jump distances, i wonder what is in store for 0.0... |
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
9
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Posted - 2014.09.14 21:28:00 -
[2204] - Quote
Just wanted to thank CCP once again. Today we had the luck of rolling for 6 hours, to only see 2~3 combat anomalies with 4~6 wormholes in them, wanna know what happened ? No farm, no pvp, NOTHING. And we just rolled another sh**hole. Another day to log off at the POS with hands full of nothing. (yeah, we got to kill 1 afk domi in the morning, but for that I should consider +3h of rolling).
I'm just curious, how it is even possible, having a WH CSM moving out of WH's, CCP, do you even understand that even OUR representative can't continue to be in WH because of the sh***y changes? |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
29
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Posted - 2014.09.14 21:50:00 -
[2205] - Quote
God Arthie wrote:Just wanted to thank CCP once again. Today we had the luck of rolling for 6 hours, to only see 2~3 combat anomalies with 4~6 wormholes in them, wanna know what happened ? No farm, no pvp, NOTHING. And we just rolled another sh**hole. Another day to log off at the POS with hands full of nothing. (yeah, we got to kill 1 afk domi in the morning, but for that I should consider +3h of rolling).
I'm just curious, how it is even possible, having a WH CSM moving out of WH's, CCP, do you even understand that even OUR representative can't continue to be in WH because of the sh***y changes?
Wouldnt it be nice if CCP was just as in touch with their community as Star Citizen is with theirs? and that with a game not even out yet..
The lack of feedback and communication is a utter failure on their parts imho. Silent treatment is something you give misbheaving kids, not your paying subscribers. When you been playing this game for like forever, it's not so much about play for the sake of the game anylonger, but because of the people you play with. Wrecking things doesn't necessary get fixed easy with a patch once damage is done.
We haven't necessary rolled our static that many times today, but we scanned A LOT, and got longer chains that what is sensible. Found some guys in a c4 and was playing a bit, but you can't really re-ship to match the oposition when your home system is like 10 jumps away.
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Moloney
Faceless Men
152
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Posted - 2014.09.14 21:53:00 -
[2206] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote: The ball is now in ccp's court. I really wish some of the actual DEV"S Would Create a few Toons and move into Wormholes and live here for a year or two. That is the only way to see what and were we need stuff Since they don't Listen to The Pilots That live there .
This, except with one change. Clone toons from a specific corp. and remember to assign at lease two toons per real person. |
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
9
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Posted - 2014.09.15 07:19:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Well, it's "easy to live" in WH, so I think only with 1 alt they can farm, salvage, pvp, scout holes(both new and wait on current to see if someone is coming). On the other hand, why would dev's leave their golden platted houses (located in null) to see that currently living in WH's is only worth it if you have at least 10~20 online members. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1863
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 07:32:00 -
[2208] - Quote
We rolled our static c5 several times yesterday and I was the dread pilot. We used the bounce point and sling shot tactic and i have to say that it was quite enjoyable. Yes it took longer than it did before hyperion but I think it's good that the process is a bit more complicated and risky.
As far as risk goes, you are only in danger when rolling incoming or old wormholes, which is only a big deal for people who want to close themselves off. However, if the rewards gained by closing yourself off aren't big enough, people aren't going to take the risk in the first place.
I don't think the mass based spawn mechanics should be rolled back. I think more rewards should be added to balance the risk. +1 |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
135
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 08:46:00 -
[2209] - Quote
Rolled into SSC a few days ago. Only had ~7 people online. Had to call it a day. gg Lot's of content was created.... NOT.
Whether you can roll a hole or not depends on whether you can fight the group that's on the other side. Not only is it possible that they simply have superior numbers, it's also their home system which means they can bring as many caps as they want. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1864
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 08:57:00 -
[2210] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Rolled into SSC a few days ago. Only had ~7 people online. Had to call it a day. gg Lot's of content was created.... NOT.
Why didn't you immediately roll the connection? Did they already have probes out when you connected?
SSC aren't that scary +1 |
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Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
152
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Posted - 2014.09.15 11:10:00 -
[2211] - Quote
I asked a few times already, can someone, ANYONE, from CCP PLEASE comment on how much longer your 'data collection' and 'feedback analysis' will take?
Simpl question: Will you roll back?
possible answers: YES, NO, Maybe
If NO, SAY IT PLS If YES, SAY IT PLS
if MAYBE, PLEASE TELL US WHEN (approx) YOU WILL DECIDE (days, weeks, months, after the door opens)
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
468
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:29:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:We rolled our static c5 several times yesterday and I was the dread pilot. We used the bounce point and sling shot tactic and i have to say that it was quite enjoyable. Yes it took longer than it did before hyperion but I think it's good that the process is a bit more complicated and risky. As far as risk goes, you are only in danger when rolling incoming or old wormholes, which is only a big deal for people who want to close themselves off. However, if the rewards gained by closing yourself off aren't big enough, people aren't going to take the risk in the first place. I don't think the mass based spawn mechanics should be rolled back. I think more rewards should be added to balance the risk.
That's where you are missing it. I don't want to be molested by a priest and then handed a bag of jelly beans. A bag of jelly beans doesn't make it OK.
"As far as risk goes, you are only in danger...." You don't get risk. The risk involved in rolling a wh is a fixed value. That fixed value is the value of the ships you roll with. That risk is incurred the second said ship is in warp to the wh.
What you are discussing is safety margin. Think of it as the % chance you are going to get away with rolling the wh without losing the assets you are rolling with. We could discuss safety margin for quite some time - there are a lot of variables that could possibly go into it. I'll only address 2 here.
Safety Margin #1 - The guys going for your ships will have to go 'all in' to ensure they get you. This used to be a relatively large safety margin. Not many corps were willing to or had the assets to go 'all in' and wonk someone in their home wh knowing the only thing at their back is a closed wh. This is the safety margin that was TOTALLY REMOVED with the mass range stuff. This is why a lot of folks are pissed. Risk was shared between both parties. 'We're bringing the ships to the wh to roll it, but you may have to go all in to take them from us' There are also ramifications when jumping in to a wh for pvp, but that's a different discussion.
Safety Margin #2 - You are putting various amounts of safety margin on both incoming and old wh. I'll voice what I think your assumptions are. Incoming - they get there first and can cloak up a single loki on the wh (which post hyperion is all that is needed to tackle your loot pinata... er rolling capital. Old wh I'm guessing are pretty much the same - there is a lot of time for someone to cloak up a single ship that will hold your roller until the wonking fleet arrives. The values each corp assign to these factors are based on a lot of things. Your corp size (guys on line at the time of the decision) has a lot to do with the value you put on that . What you know it to be isn't by definition what another guy knows it to be.
Where you state that 'you are only in danger when rolling incoming and old wh'... do you offer some form of free SRP for ships lost rolling fresh wh to go along w/ your guarantee of no danger? Where do I sign up? |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1865
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:41:00 -
[2213] - Quote
If you have scanned a fresh hole, jumped in, and do not see any probes on scan. There is zero risk in rolling as long as the situations doesn't change. +1 |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
468
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:43:00 -
[2214] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If you have scanned a fresh hole, jumped in, and do not see any probes on scan. There is next to zero risk in rolling as long as the situations doesn't change. The risks were not balanced befor Hyperion. The guys who got their caps and HIC to the wormhole first, could dictate the engagement. Nine times out of ten, when you jumped a cap you appeared in jump range on the other side. Yes we replace all ships that are lost during an official operation. However, we would not cover the cost of your stupidity, should you decide to roll a hole that has been open for 16 hours or you see probes on scan. Contact one of our diplomats if you would like to know more.
Heh, I didn't mean do you replace all your ships. Will you replace mine if I roll a fresh wh and it goes bad? I was just kidding about that part.
Risks pre hyperion:
Roller- 100% of rolling ships were at risk the second they entered warp to a wh. Ganker- 0% if you chose not to engage up to 100% if you chose to go all in.
Risks post hyper:
Roller - same 100% for the same reasons Ganker - pretty much 0%. Assuming the ganking fleet can tackle, web and bump a rolling ship that spawns out of jump range.
This is for wh rolling. Jumping in w/ a fleet for pvp is a whole different discussion and a whole different set of risks. Every point/bubble the roller brings through the wh adds risk to the ganking fleet. I'm assuming a rolling fleet is just rolling and that an unpointed ship will have the sense to warp away before it gets popped.
And to expand on my jelly bean theme. I don't want a fix or a work around for this. I want a roll back. That's me and what I want. I'm ok w/ other folks having other views. I'm NOT ok with folks not understanding and miss representing what the actual risks are. There are a lot of folks breaking this down incorrectly and putting it out as fact. Just trying to keep it clear. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1865
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:08:00 -
[2215] - Quote
I don't think you're gonna get a rollback so you shouldn't waste your time asking for one.
I don't think your risk evaluation is remotely correct if we're talking about rolling a c5. Pre hyperion, when were you ever at risk rolling a fresh hole? ...assuming you had no hostile holes already in your system.
If we were unsure if a carrier trap had been set, we would simply jump the orca first. Granted the orca would probably die but at least the carrier was safe. +1 |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
6
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Posted - 2014.09.15 16:43:00 -
[2216] - Quote
Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.
Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.
Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.
And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
56
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Posted - 2014.09.16 01:24:00 -
[2217] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.
Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.
Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.
And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now.
Agree and second Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
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Firefox4312 Yatolila
Nex Exercitus Northern Coalition.
54
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Posted - 2014.09.16 06:21:00 -
[2218] - Quote
97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(
Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
62
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Posted - 2014.09.16 16:42:00 -
[2219] - Quote
Meh. Rolling for isk takes too much time... Aren't we supposed to make isk to buy ships and lose them in a blaze of glory? Now we'll be so poor, we'll have to pew in fw frigs ;)
Edit: typo |
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
5
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Posted - 2014.09.17 13:20:00 -
[2220] - Quote
Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(
Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people.
Good to see that CCP is taking the approach of "hey maybe if we just say nothing they will get bored and will stop posting eventually..."
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