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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
232
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Many will consider this a rant. I do not. I consider it reason, rationality, and sense.
Drone ships need to be massively nerfed almost across the board, particularly most Gallente. I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.
Back when drone damage mods did not exist, it sort of made sense that Gallente ships needed drone damage bonuses and weapon damage bonuses. Well, it was still a bit too powerful back then, but now it's just absurd.
Then CCP, in their infinite wisdom, goes and give Gallente another boon: the Gecko. Yes, the Gecko that volleys frigates from the field, deals omni damage, tracks and moves quickly, all while having giant EHP. "oh but there are a limited number of them!" So what, they are still utterly broken and their introduction to the game was poorly thought out and entirely brainless. Please give me a special form of missile that deals omni damage, perfectly applies that damage, and hits stupidly hard; like volleying frigates with one cycle. Enough damage that an X-LASB can't tank it for more than 4-5 cycles. Of course, this would never happen. Yet the Gecko exists. Reasons!
Gecko's aside, drone damage ships deal far too much damage for their utility. They have an incredible weapon system that covers small, medium, and large threats and can swap at will. They can infinitely kite without worrying about their positioning, other than being in point range if solo. This weapon system is impossible to get underneath, so even tackling a "kite" drone ship is irrelevant. It only puts you in range of their blasters, or neuts. I don't need to tell you how brutal blasters are at close ranges. So they have the highest dps short range weapons, usually with bonuses, while also having the most versatile weapon system (drones) bonused, granting them immunity to kiting, TD's, neuts, ETC. That sure is a recipe for balance. Right now fighting a drone ships is incredibly difficult; like a watermelon vs. Gallagher's hammer. You just explode.
Perhaps it's because Gallente Militia are, and have been, in tier 4 for quite some time now. Why even bring out a regular Vexor? The most powerful tech one cruiser is now just a smidge less expensive than the, VNI. The good ol' Vexor Navy Issue is everywhere these days, and it really highlights just how overpowered drone ships have become. So you get a capless, high damage, high tracking and speed weapon that is immune to neuts, tracking disruption, and kiting. Because REASONS.
Caracal Navy Issue you say? I laugh in your face. At least the Nomen is great at kiting, better even than the zealot of old. The stabber is quite good for it's speed. The Navy Caracal is hilariously bad. But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.
So, where do we go from here? Well, you would have to replace the drone system with a system that makes sense. That has it's particular weapon size, you know, like every other weapon system in the game. I don't get to swap from large to small turrets on a whim here. I'm tired of VNI's / ishtars / (vexors sort of) dropping sentries, heavies, mediums, or lights, to deal with literally any threat you can toss them. They need to specialize in only one size (medium) of drone, not have this weird ability to just kill everything. In fact, if you removed all hi slots off each drone ships (to compensate for their drone bays being HUGE), they would still be VERY formidable combat ships. I know, it's like this weird thing called balance. Trade-offs and things.
I suppose it's just disheartening when you get dumped all over by a Gallente drone cruiser, even when you have a couple cruisers with a few frigs. And there is nothing you can do about it because.....reasons.
In classic Eve fashion I expect responses like: "Show me on this doll were the VNI touched you" and various other responses involving my assumed impotence.
Engage. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
207
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
How about you go on a campaign to kill the geckos? Ships can be replaced but Geckos are a finite resource. Go kill them and laugh in the face of whoever sent out the Geckos after you.
I am sure someone can come up with a cheap-o gecko-killer frigate or dessy. Could be kinda fun.
Though as a Gallente drone pilot since 2009 I have to admit. There is a smirk on my face. |
Delucian
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
72
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Old Viking saying, "If you can't lift yon sword, grow stronger." |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
56
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Amusingly., I remember stating in a thread that over buffing DDA as they were being introduced was a danger since there were Drone ships were already pretty good (Domi and Ishtar) and that there was the potential to turn carriers into monsters, since the could rep and pour out dps.
I was told I was nuts and that anyone who used carriers for anything but logistics was a moron.
I guess moron hold sovereignty in null sec. And Istars are not getting a nerf soon. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
762
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Posted - 2014.08.13 18:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
What drone ships need is a slot and stat reduction.
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Tra'dane T'Kal
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.08.13 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?
Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.
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Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
57
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Posted - 2014.08.13 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Phaade wrote: I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.
But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.
Engage.
Used to be the other way around, and I wouldnt even say your assessment is correct, but I suppose people will always find something to whine about. Protip: When you kill the drones, you remove the DPS. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2014.08.13 20:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?
Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.
Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage.
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2014.08.13 21:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
536
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Posted - 2014.08.13 22:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?
Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.
Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage. Sure there is. If you're fighting T2 ships, they're going to have a couple of resists that are still higher than the others even after they've plugged their resist hole. For example, using EM damage against a Minmatar T2 ship is a giant waste of time, and gecko loses damage versus things that don't do EM as a result. |
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Liam Inkuras
Top Belt Heroes Black Rise Police Department
1250
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Posted - 2014.08.13 23:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Geckos are primary more often than ships I find. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1128
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Posted - 2014.08.13 23:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me.
This^
It's not rocket science. Kill the thing that's doing you damage... Once that's done kill the ship. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
104
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Posted - 2014.08.13 23:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Drone ships are fine in my opinion, sure the ishtar is currently tweaked out on crack and rampaging through the streets but other than that its pretty balanced, most drones boats have tiny drone space ( especially with Gecko's on the flight deck ) and so killing their drones completely removes most of their DPS. If you hate drone boats that badly, either kill their drones or dont fight them its simple as that. Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM Silent Requiem
86
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Posted - 2014.08.14 00:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?
Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.
Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage. Sure there is. If you're fighting T2 ships, they're going to have a couple of resists that are still higher than the others even after they've plugged their resist hole. For example, using EM damage against a Minmatar T2 ship is a giant waste of time, and gecko loses damage versus things that don't do EM as a result.
But it also does more damage than something with only EM. Omni is not the worst and its not the best.
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Marcuis
Veritas Theory Fidelas Constans
3
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Posted - 2014.08.14 00:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
I dont know whats wrong with you.! .. Drones boats are perfectly okay and dont need a change, its simple to be honest learn to over come the drone boats and counter them with better tactics other then whine about it..same is said about ECM.. in the game so learn to adjust [IMG]http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll34/Zuminor/marcsigcopy-13.gif[/IMG] |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
232
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Django Askulf wrote:Phaade wrote: I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.
But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.
Engage. Used to be the other way around, and I wouldnt even say your assessment is correct, but I suppose people will always find something to whine about. Protip: When you kill the drones, you remove the DPS.
The other way around?
Since I have been playing, Gallente have had superior ships to Caldari, generally speaking. Minmatar had some beasts as well.
I have been playing since 2007, so.... that's quite some time now.
And I can lift my sword. Unfortunately, Caldari swords are wooden sticks.
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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
232
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Posted - 2014.08.14 15:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me.
Might be beneficial to me actually, to have people target my missile launchers instead of my ship.
Then when a launcher dies I simply re-apply another one. My effective HP has increased substantially while the target dies.
That argument applies only to non drone based ships (in certain situations) and sentries in Null that can be bombed. It is almost never a factor in an actual fight.
Thus, it is a stupid argument for balance. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
232
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marcuis wrote:I dont know whats wrong with you.! .. Drones boats are perfectly okay and dont need a change, its simple to be honest learn to over come the drone boats and counter them with better tactics other then whine about it..same is said about ECM.. in the game so learn to adjust
What kind of mindless drivel is this?
What tactics counter drones and guns, other than mindlessly attempting to kill drones (which you require a web to do, so your target can escape)?
Explain to me why the Tristan, Vexor, VNI, Myrmidon, Dominix are some of the best ships in their class, and generally hit a class up?
Tristan kills AF's and faction frigates quite well, Vexor kills all other t1 cruisers and some BC's well, triple rep Myrmidon? Good lord.
Sure, other ships certainly specialize in various areas, but generally speaking, these are the best most versatile ships in the game.
Then there's the Ishtar. |
Jon Joringer
Bushido.
137
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Posted - 2014.08.14 15:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
To be fair, simply killing the drones is not always very easy, as any competent pilot is going to be paying close attention to their drones and swap them out as they start taking damage. And the whole time you're focusing on drones is just more time that the opponent isn't dying and probably has friends on the way.
Not that I completely agree with the OP, but I do find a number of drone boats (mostly Gallente) are out of whack. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
536
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
The fundamental problem is really with giving non-battleships the 125m3 bandwidth. With the travel time of drones, having "battleship size" weapons on a cruiser isn't a big issue normally...but then you look at a 1v1 situation where travel time no longer matters and the cruisers fielding heavy drones are suddenly doing nearly BS damage levels with cruiser sig and speed.
However, if you reduce the drone bandwidth without heavily buffing the drone damage (like the guristas ships) you'd wind up with rather pitiful real damage after accounting for travel times, drones getting lost, etc.
The Dominix really isn't that bad. Caps out at <800 dps from sentry drones without faction mods, and that's not unreasonable when you compare to other damage-bonused T1 battleships. |
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Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
540
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 17:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
I did DED 5/10 in low sec in Gila. Took most of the day because of the local conditions. Overall I am very impressed and very pleased. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2152
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 17:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:Amusingly., I remember stating in a thread that over buffing DDA as they were being introduced was a danger since there were Drone ships were already pretty good (Domi and Ishtar) and that there was the potential to turn carriers into monsters, since the could rep and pour out dps.
I was told I was nuts and that anyone who used carriers for anything but logistics was a moron.
I guess moron hold sovereignty in null sec. And Istars are not getting a nerf soon.
Made me dig out some old threads. I remembered arguing the same before CCP announced DDAs; sure enough.
I still don't think Ishtars and Domis are absolutely overwhelming but they are certainly pushing that envelope. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
114
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Posted - 2014.08.14 19:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Marcuis wrote:I dont know whats wrong with you.! .. Drones boats are perfectly okay and dont need a change, its simple to be honest learn to over come the drone boats and counter them with better tactics other then whine about it..same is said about ECM.. in the game so learn to adjust What kind of mindless drivel is this? What tactics counter drones and guns, other than mindlessly attempting to kill drones (which you require a web to do, so your target can escape)? Explain to me why the Tristan, Vexor, VNI, Myrmidon, Dominix are some of the best ships in their class, and generally hit a class up? Tristan kills AF's and faction frigates quite well, Vexor kills all other t1 cruisers and some BC's well, triple rep Myrmidon? Good lord. Sure, other ships certainly specialize in various areas, but generally speaking, these are the best most versatile ships in the game. Then there's the Ishtar.
You dont need a web to kill drones, ive killed them with just a simple rail cormorant and blapped them before they closed range. Also yes the Tristan, Vexor, Myrm, and Domi are VERY good ships but theres a catch:
THEY NEED A GOOD PILOT TOO
Ive killed tons of crap fit and "too new to fly this yet" kinds of drone ships, its not hard its when you run into someone who actually has the training, experience, implants, and such to back their ship up that these things become murderous monsters of ships. The poster YOU quoted was right its an adapt or die universe out there, people got jammed so they fit ECCM or Spur pods ( etc. ), people got annoyed with getting bombed so they fit MJD's, its the same scenario with drone boats, just kill the drones and your fine a vexor or ishtar with no drones left is a lion without teeth or claws, sure the blasters or rails hurt but they can be tanked.
Stop crying you died to drone boats and do something productive about it because the forums isnt going to change a thing, launch a campaign to nerf drone boats, kill every dedicated drone boat or buy every one and reprocess them, there are productive ( albeit some impractical ) ways of dealing with your issue that dont revolve around posts like these.
OR
If you can't beat em' join em' Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
114
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Posted - 2014.08.14 19:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:Amusingly., I remember stating in a thread that over buffing DDA as they were being introduced was a danger since there were Drone ships were already pretty good (Domi and Ishtar) and that there was the potential to turn carriers into monsters, since the could rep and pour out dps.
I was told I was nuts and that anyone who used carriers for anything but logistics was a moron.
I guess moron hold sovereignty in null sec. And Istars are not getting a nerf soon.
Ishtars are getting nerfed this month M8, read the hyperion dev posts Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Tirabi
Courage and Madness
4
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Posted - 2014.08.14 22:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
The OP is right,
I myself am an ishtar pilot, we normally field 7-10 VNI or ishtars in fleet at any given time - why you ask?
Fast/low sig/t2 resists on ishtars, huge dps with DDA & gecko/sentries
We can sit 30-60km from a gate spread, have a tackle on the gate and melt anything without the fear of us being caught..kite kite kite..
Yes you can shoot the drones, but then ill just pull them back in - relaunch and shoot u again, by the time you relock the target again your just wasting your dps and time while u slowly die to the rest of the fleet..
if you get close to me ill triple nuet you, so if u don't use autocannons or missles your ship will be useless when next to me, thats if you survive the 900+ dps ishtar fit...
get to close i just abandom my sentries, launch closer range drones based on size of your ship and kill you.. then recall them then reconnect to my sentries again..
the problem lies here - you can abadon drones and then reconnect and they are active again, you could take away the ability to reconnect and have to literally scoop them back to drone bay to make them avaliable again.
the other problem is giving the bonus dmg to sentries on the ishtar, it already gets a dmg bonus to drones why give it more?
900+ dps on a cruiser ship that can smack u for huge dmg from 30-100k/m with bouncers with no fear of being attacked or tackled? thats more than most battleships with the ability of low sig, fast 1800+m/s and a huge variety of drones in the bay 325m3 worth..
the ishtar is broken and im an ishtar pilot......the main problem that sparked all of this was the DDA item coming into existence.... no other cruiser can compare in dps or kiting ability... its also costs the same as a tier 3 battleship or in some cases a tier 2 with fittings afterwards, $270 million isk aint alot for its potential.
just my 2cents... |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3315
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Posted - 2014.08.14 22:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. Thread closed. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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