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Needin
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Posted - 2006.07.28 21:39:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Needin on 28/07/2006 21:39:00 I read Currin's account of his activities running a ponzi scheme and then stumbled onto this thread while making my acquaintance with the boards. I'm an Eve newbie, after all.
One thing did strike me about this audit though. When a business is audited, the company doesn't bring the auditor in, set them in front of a single filing cabinet and go "There you go! Have fun!" The company has to lay records down showing where exactly assets are, accounts payable, accounts receivable, etc. IOW, the onus is on the company to prove the accuracy and worth of their assets.
By all accounts, EIBI set the auditor in front of a single wallet, told the auditor that that wasn't really the wallet used for transactions and invited them to dig through. Not exactly the actions of a company owner trying to be a bit more translucent.
I was also struck by how Currin lays his case out logically and without emotion yet his allegations are never tackled point by point but simply responded to with ad hominem attacks. My old logic professor taught us that ad hominem attacks are a tried and true method used by those who are making a weak case.
However, as I said, I'm an Eve newb. I have no isk involved nor do I know the parties involved. I know if I did have isk involved, I'd be yanking them out of that "bank" so fast the wallet would sizzle. If not a scam, it's certainly an Enron-esque level of bad bookkeeping and poor management.
Good luck to those involved. This is certainly fascinating!
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EMFi Manager
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:08:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Needin Edited by: Needin on 28/07/2006 21:39:00 I read Currin's account of his activities running a ponzi scheme and then stumbled onto this thread while making my acquaintance with the boards. I'm an Eve newbie, after all.
One thing did strike me about this audit though. When a business is audited, the company doesn't bring the auditor in, set them in front of a single filing cabinet and go "There you go! Have fun!" The company has to lay records down showing where exactly assets are, accounts payable, accounts receivable, etc. IOW, the onus is on the company to prove the accuracy and worth of their assets.
By all accounts, EIBI set the auditor in front of a single wallet, told the auditor that that wasn't really the wallet used for transactions and invited them to dig through. Not exactly the actions of a company owner trying to be a bit more translucent.
I was also struck by how Currin lays his case out logically and without emotion yet his allegations are never tackled point by point but simply responded to with ad hominem attacks. My old logic professor taught us that ad hominem attacks are a tried and true method used by those who are making a weak case.
However, as I said, I'm an Eve newb. I have no isk involved nor do I know the parties involved. I know if I did have isk involved, I'd be yanking them out of that "bank" so fast the wallet would sizzle. If not a scam, it's certainly an Enron-esque level of bad bookkeeping and poor management.
Good luck to those involved. This is certainly fascinating!
Actually, I was given xls books.. and told that I shouldn't bother looking at the wallet becuase it wasn't the real wallet, and should wait till I could check the real wallet..
I insisted on seeing the corpwallet anyways, which was of little use.
Alt of Naphtalia
Visit my investment site |
Kespii
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:20:00 -
[123]
I hope you all realize if cally gets banned for breaking the eula, then kiss all the isk you invested goodbye.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:08:00 -
[124]
This brings up something entirely different. Are you allowed to lie about account status (banned for example, via alt or temp bans), about "selling" characters that are still in your possession etc.
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Tarkan Kador
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Posted - 2006.07.29 05:34:00 -
[125]
Originally by: EMFi Manager
Actually, I was given xls books.. and told that I shouldn't bother looking at the wallet becuase it wasn't the real wallet, and should wait till I could check the real wallet..
I insisted on seeing the corpwallet anyways, which was of little use.
I'm just looking at this from the outside, so no stake in this other than pure curiosity.
But as I read the description of how they keep their books, it seems as if the owner has all the deposits in the CEO's wallet, rather than the bank wallet. That sounds strange.
What sort of bank president keeps the vault in his house, and puts deposits made to the bank in his own account?
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EMFi Manager
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.29 07:32:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
What sort of bank president keeps the vault in his house, and puts deposits made to the bank in his own account?
a bank ceo that doesn't want someone with wallet access to run of with 100s of bil? :)
I am not saying I like this but given the fact that there are directors it is either leaving all the isk for grabs or parking it on character wallets.
We really need divisional accounting in eve. Maybe having multiple corps helps here.
Alt of Naphtalia
Visit my investment site |
Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:06:00 -
[127]
Originally by: EMFi Manager
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
What sort of bank president keeps the vault in his house, and puts deposits made to the bank in his own account?
a bank ceo that doesn't want someone with wallet access to run of with 100s of bil? :)
I am not saying I like this but given the fact that there are directors it is either leaving all the isk for grabs or parking it on character wallets.
We really need divisional accounting in eve. Maybe having multiple corps helps here.
Restructuring a whole lot of corps into the alliance 4tw. Each corp with it's own director/s and corp wallets. Maybe Cally's refurbishment goal may actually be a great idea.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:18:00 -
[128]
When's this audit supposed to be done?
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Freada
Gallente Mackinaw Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.03 02:03:00 -
[129]
The wallet problems are CCP's fault, we just try to work around them
This would not be the first time that a "good" company was ruined by public opinion. The timing of the absence with all the ipo scam yelling of late seems to have brought this about. It has seemed for a while that some people wanted this to be a scam. Whether it was or not may be lost in all the finger pointing. What a shame.
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kirjava
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.05 15:08:00 -
[130]
I have read Currins account of what happened and (assuming he kept this record accurate) he does point out a few allegations at Cally that are worth looking over from a neutral perspective. For instance Currin mentions the credibility of a charecter of Callys age. I myself have an alt in my account that rarely sees the light of day. It may be possible that Cally was originaly an old alt that moved around from corp to corp along with the main. When i read Currins acount my impression was that Cally had split from the main charecter at some point, so as to build up a reputation as an old citizen that many cherish this fact in and of itself. As some one mentioned earlier, Cally wasnt heard of much before EIB, and i see this as a strange supposrt reason for Callys activities. Whilst I can see EIB working, isnt that a fairly good reason to test EIB before openly ridiculing it? Eve has endless oppurtunities and unlimited freedom in which to work with. It wouldent surprise me if there wasnt someone out there, building a charecter up to have a sparkling reputation, to make an investment scheme that people use, and steal billions from. After all GHSC spent a year i think it was laying down the elaborate plan for their heist. Of course, after posting here I will probably be told by Currin that I am Cally because like many people in the game, I like to type fast and miss out the (`) in words. It occurs to me that Cally may be what she says she is, and that Currin may be having more than a touch of paranoia and concionce over his own scheme, and taking the easy ticket out by finding fault in anothers business. Just my 2 0.01 ISK
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Eralis
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Posted - 2006.08.05 20:01:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Eralis on 05/08/2006 20:01:37 Hrm, I could have sworn EIB backers had claimed EIB had 'hundreds of billions' of ISK they were 'investing'. And nobody seems to be able to find more than 2 billion of it?
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.08.05 20:14:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Karash Amerius The players that try to play this "Bank" game in Eve are all lemmings. Scamming in Eve has evolved way past what it once was...and is apparantly still not recognized once the light gets turned on.
Exactly.
What I find even more amusing is that if you invest your money yourself, you can easily beat the returns the 'banks' give you. 6% a month? I've done 60 million on 1 billion in a day.
Although it is getting harder - I've been watching the market the past few months and there are a LOT of orders on the market now for a LOT of HIGH-VALUE items, and the price spread between buying and selling has gotten much narrower. When people have 900 million ISK tied up in one implant sell order, you know people are running out of places to put their money. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Semblence
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Posted - 2006.08.05 22:30:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Eralus
Originally by: Karash Amerius The players that try to play this "Bank" game in Eve are all lemmings. Scamming in Eve has evolved way past what it once was...and is apparantly still not recognized once the light gets turned on.
Exactly.
What I find even more amusing is that if you invest your money yourself, you can easily beat the returns the 'banks' give you. 6% a month? I've done 60 million on 1 billion in a day.
The point of investing is to increase your capital by 6% without you yourself spending any time increasing it.
We can all make 6%, but no-one can do it as quickly as simply giving it to someone else for the promise of a regular return.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.08.05 22:45:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Semblence
The point of investing is to increase your capital by 6% without you yourself spending any time increasing it.
We can all make 6%, but no-one can do it as quickly as simply giving it to someone else for the promise of a regular return.
My point was, the RISK of handing your ISK over to someone else totally does not justify the rewards. You can make much more money taking care of your money yourself and there's zero risk that you're the latest scammer victim. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Semblence
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Posted - 2006.08.05 23:14:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Semblence on 05/08/2006 23:23:58 Sure I agree with all that. There's the risk of losing your ISK in one go to a scam, but there's also the risk of seeing your ISK lose its value gradually if you don't increase it more quickly than the other guy. How rich you are is relative to how rich everyone else is so there's risks to investing but there's also risks to not investing.
What makes investment attractive is that you make 6% without doing anything in game. While everyone can make 6% in a day off 1 billion capital if they are playing the game, no-one can make 6% if they do nothing in the game. With an investment in shares [edit: or bank or savings account etc], you can continually make 6% by doing (almost) nothing in the game.
Of course it's a much bigger risk to invest, but the reward, if you consider it in terms of ISK/hour, is in fact very great.
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Namaqua
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:23:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Namaqua on 08/08/2006 17:23:58 I think the promise of 10% return on a billion ISK over a month doesnt justify handing it over, I would rather have the billion still there, and if you sat thinking about it for an hour you could actually make more than 10% youself over a month and not be playing the game rather then making someone else rich and having no come back from it, IE losing all your cash.
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Sabahl
Minmatar Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.08 19:10:00 -
[137]
And a thousand sane players, united, chant "Told you so!"
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.08 19:33:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/08/2006 19:34:14
Originally by: Sabahl And a thousand sane players, united, chant "Told you so!"
?
Originally by: Eralis
Hrm, I could have sworn EIB backers had claimed EIB had 'hundreds of billions' of ISK they were 'investing'. And nobody seems to be able to find more than 2 billion of it?
The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II |
Caroglac
Amarr The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:36:00 -
[139]
hmm as someone that does business with both EIB and EIBI on a regular basis I dont believe they are a scam...
I sell upwards of a billion in minerals per week to eibi have stock in the company and use my EIB current account as other people use there wallets... sometimes as many as 4-5 seperate deposit/withdrawls in my current account with no complants from the tellers... Xendraii and Ricdic are doing a wonderfull job with EIB :)
to anyone discouraged by currins Rants... if you realy think eibi is a scam SELL ME YOUR SHARES of EIBI :) will buy any amount for 16m per share :) and i'll be laughing all the way :)
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Slade Phoenix
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.09 12:04:00 -
[140]
Umm... Care to buy my shares? Only 29.999.999 per share, need money for a Hulk and Obelisk. Visit the EGSE. :)
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robacz
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.09 13:24:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Semblence What makes investment attractive is that you make 6% without doing anything in game. While everyone can make 6% in a day off 1 billion capital if they are playing the game, no-one can make 6% if they do nothing in the game. With an investment in shares [edit: or bank or savings account etc], you can continually make 6% by doing (almost) nothing in the game.
Of course it's a much bigger risk to invest, but the reward, if you consider it in terms of ISK/hour, is in fact very great.
Hm imo the reward is very poor compared to risk... even if you bought one 250mil BPO and researched it (=no work at all), you would make more than 6% with 1/4 investment. Even if you resold one freaking implant or module per month, you would make more than 6%. And risks? A lot lower than transferring 1bil ISK to some guy who can run away anytime he wants.
It would make sense for large sum of ISK, cos getting 6%+ from 1bil without work is a lot easier than getting same work-less profit from 50bil (if its even possible), however risk involved in investing large sums is immense compared to 0.2% profit per day.
___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more |
Funky Witherbean
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Posted - 2006.08.09 15:11:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Slade Phoenix Umm... Care to buy my shares? Only 29.999.999 per share, need money for a Hulk and Obelisk. Visit the EGSE. :)
Just to point out, the intent of EIBI is to always return 10% of the IPO price. at 29,999,999 per share, that is a guaranteed return of 5%. Opening a long terms savings account at the EIB actually returns a better gain.
If you want to move your asking price down into a region where someone could expect 7% or so, it might be a good deal, but EIBI isn't really a stock that should be expected to increase in value so long as its' dividend remains the same.
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Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.09 18:01:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI. The EIB is not the same thing as the EIBI.
Are you trying to say that the EIBI is not the same as the EIB? I'm confused by your vauge statements.
Recruiting
Casino - Monitor Thread |
Klasanov
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Posted - 2006.08.09 23:47:00 -
[144]
The only thing that really irks me is the potential for Cally to just run off with everything. I always put a fair bit of paranoia into any investments anyway.
If this were a scam, do you not think that Cally would just run off with everything rather than bother putting up with all of you?
I know I would.
Seriously though, what more can you do with 500 bil than you could with a trillion? Other than just to have?
And yes, you can get better returns than 6% elsewhere for less risk in this game. Or you can invest anyway because you find it fun. Returns on current accounts are lower than that anyway, only 3.5% every 28 days. But you do nothing and it adds up.
Worth the risk? I agree, no. This is why I have never invested all my wallet into one single thing business where I have no control over.
But that doesn't mean we should invest nothing. Well, I mean, that's up to the person really but I'm just saying we shouldn't write off EIB (or anything) "because it offers 6% and I could go get 6% this way by playing the game", because you can do both.
Of course, I'm much less apprehensive investing my wallet into an investment that requires me to play a bit. I know I won't scam myself.
So what I mean is, yes, use common sense. Don't invest everything onto someone else, but don't just mark everyone as bad because a few turn out to be rotten.
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Semblence
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Posted - 2006.08.12 01:21:00 -
[145]
Originally by: robacz
Hm imo the reward is very poor compared to risk... even if you bought one 250mil BPO and researched it (=no work at all), you would make more than 6% with 1/4 investment. Even if you resold one freaking implant or module per month, you would make more than 6%. And risks? A lot lower than transferring 1bil ISK to some guy who can run away anytime he wants.
It would make sense for large sum of ISK, cos getting 6%+ from 1bil without work is a lot easier than getting same work-less profit from 50bil (if its even possible), however risk involved in investing large sums is immense compared to 0.2% profit per day.
BPO research is a good example, but it also highlights some of the advantages of a simple deposit:
The miracle of compound interest - reinvest your interest, or if possible tell the bank to do it. No effort except to tell them you want compound interest when you make your first deposit.
Finding a BPO or multiple BPOs that fit your investment profile, researching the BPOs, moving them, selling them later to realise the profit, hoping more are not released if tech2, or that what your BPO produces is not nerfed overnight etc. OK, not particularly difficult, but still, not NO in-game effort at all and not no risk to your capital.
And yes, for large sums of ISK, again depositing becomes far less work. Invest your 50bn in just one BPO and research it? Or buy lots of cheaper BPOs? Both options have risks and in-game time commitment.
Of course none of these advantages are a big deal really, they only become important if you think there is a risk to letting your ISK sit in the wallet doing nothing, which assumes ISK gradually loses its value over time, (arguably true, I reckon). The CEO-running-off risk is huge, nevertheless "one-click, make 6% on any amount of money" is an attractive proposition. (Perhaps that's the nub of the scam...lol)
The only thing I can think would mitigate the CEO-running-off problem in the future is a 100% positive contracts history, a character with a superb contract history could become more valuable than running off with the money.
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Skarii TuThess
CompleXion Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.12 12:02:00 -
[146]
To get this back on topic (and please forgive me if I missed the post through all the arguing, I did do a search to no avail), has the stock and liquid assets of EIB been returned yet?
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