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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
104
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was reading EVENews24 and there was an interesting wall of text about intel gathering and how relatively easy in it to find people in a game this large. Using locator agents a hunter can go from having no idea where prey is to the system and station they are in. That got me thinking about game as a whole how players should be able to hide themselves in game. So I want to propose a new skill, Counter Intelligence. This skill would be a 3x social skill that was aimed disrupting the intelligence that can be gathered by a Locator Agent. For each level that you train in, it give better counterintelligence to your location in the cluster. This would give pilots a chance to "hide" from intel sources and require more eyes on targets. So for example if you train this skill to Lvl 1, then when asked about your location it will be reported back that you are in a group of systems, The system you are in, plus two more connecting. At Lvl2 it increase it to five systems. Lvl 3 will allow you to hide in constellations, Lvl 4 will give you 2 connecting constellations issue a warning that you are being searched for and Lvl 5 will give you three constellations and tell you who requested the search for you. Now this would be a very powerful skill, but I want to offer a counter to it as well. The higher your standing with the Agent you did the search will the more it counters the effects. So if you have basic standing with an Agent then the full effects apply, but if you have Standing of +5.5 then it counters Lvl 1 by showing two systems not three. If you had perfect standing with the agent then it would treat Counter Intelligence lvl 5 as lvl 1 and hide that you were looking for the target. With the size of New Eden I feel that it should be possible to hide if you want to and require people to come out and look for you. I think that giving people this chance will increase make intelligence gathering more hands on and could even give a chance for the hunter to to become the prey. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
289
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Locator agents are easy to evade by this little trick they call "moving". No change to game mechanics needed.
Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them... |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2489
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:I was reading EVENews24
That right there is all I needed to read.
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them...
I would answer that question for you, but you won't like it. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
348
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well, if you use skills to defuse the intel, you should have opposing skills to clear it up equally. But if both are maxed, nothing will have changed, which is my point.
You can easily avoid being hunted down. Moving is the best option, as has been said. Now if you are clever about it, you make yourself a very unattractive target.
But if you are just worried about you cap alt being stalked through the watchlist and never dare to login or move ... well, caught you there, that's an old issue and can be mitigated too.
My answer is; No.
PS: As the suggestion stands right now, which doesn-¦t mean things can't evolve via various skills and changes to locator agents... just saying. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1148
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Well, if you use skills to defuse the intel, you should have opposing skills to clear it up equally. But if both are maxed, nothing will have changed, which is my point
This ^
You can't have something without a counter to it.
As for making new skills on this... I don't care since I have a few pilots training skills for ships I will likely never own or fly so... I'll just switch one useless skill in my queue for another LOL |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
519
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
There is this thing called wormholes where agents have no power.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Locator agents are easy to evade by this little trick they call "moving". No change to game mechanics needed.
Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them...
It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE.
Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
293
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Locator agents are easy to evade by this little trick they call "moving". No change to game mechanics needed.
Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them... It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE. Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game.
Pointing out that there are easy ways around something without crying for nerfs is not snobbery, it's just fact.
As for the downright hilarious scenario you just proposed: I can think of numerous ways out of that right off the top of my head and guess what: none of them needed crying to the forums begging for a mechanics change.
Edit: if you've found yourself in that situation I'll give you a hint: you royally pissed someone off. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
349
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ocih wrote:It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE.
Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game. Yes, snobb-day or no-brainer day, depends on which side of the fence you stand...
Under wardec, I would be stupid to dock and log out anywhere near where I roam. If I log in and see hostile in local, I jump out. If I don't I wait .. if nobody shows up I travel.... I use WH, I use .. I ... hey ... I.. what .... why am I revealing everything .. use your own imagination...
Sobbidy Snobb Snobb. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Ocih wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Locator agents are easy to evade by this little trick they call "moving". No change to game mechanics needed.
Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them... It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE. Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game. Pointing out that there are easy ways around something without crying for nerfs is not snobbery, it's just fact. As for the downright hilarious scenario you just proposed: I can think of numerous ways out of that right off the top of my head and guess what: none of them needed crying to the forums begging for a mechanics change.
It's called a suggestion board.
If you can't deal with other people suggesting things, maybe you should stick to the troll-fest called GD.
And of course you never gave any of these claimed suggestions, did you?
Because troll is troll? |
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
293
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:
It's called a suggestion board.
Well spotted.
Quote:If you can't deal with other people suggesting things, maybe you should stick to the troll-fest called GD. Of course I can deal with it. I can also tell them their suggestions are stupid, and back it up.
Quote:And of course you never gave any of these claimed suggestions, did you? Err, what?
Quote:Because troll is troll? Nope, just honest. If an easy way to accomplish a goal already exists in game mechanics, there is no need to change game mechanics, and I said as much. Not trolling, just cold hard fact.
Disliking a suggestion (with good reason) doesn't make me a troll. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Ocih wrote:It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE.
Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game. Yes, snobb-day or no-brainer day, depends on which side of the fence you stand... Under wardec, I would be stupid to dock and log out anywhere near where I roam. If I log in and see hostile in local, I jump out. If I don't I wait .. if nobody shows up I travel.... I use WH, I use .. I ... hey ... I.. what .... why am I revealing everything .. use your own imagination... Sobbidy Snobb Snobb.
Thinking like a Null sec Blob I see. Applying doctrine and options of the Null sec blob to the smaller, high Sec corp as well.
Because if I can do it, everyone can do it. The diversity in EVE is a lie? |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
350
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ocih wrote: It's called a suggestion board.
If you can't deal with other people suggesting things, maybe you should stick to the troll-fest called GD.
And of course you never gave any of these claimed suggestions, did you? You got the part about Features, right ?
For other discussions check the multitude of forums regarding issues, tactics, modules, general discussion, new player help and all the ingame rookie help and advanced help channels. If nobody can help you with your WD situation and is void of any tips and you got an idea and alot of people support it and think its innovative and new and someone should suggest it... welcome back.
This is not the 'dump my poorly inconsidered stuff here' forum. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:
It's called a suggestion board.
Well spotted. Quote:If you can't deal with other people suggesting things, maybe you should stick to the troll-fest called GD. Of course I can deal with it. I can also tell them their suggestions are stupid, and back it up. Quote:And of course you never gave any of these claimed suggestions, did you? Err, what? Quote:Because troll is troll? Nope, just honest. If an easy way to accomplish a goal already exists in game mechanics, there is no need to change game mechanics, and I said as much. Not trolling, just cold hard fact.
Your definition of 'easy' needs to be given with a bit more detail. And I think you know where I am going with this anyway. There really is no need for the flame posts.
Features and Ideas Discussion
Not filter my idea through a bittervet community. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12785
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ocih wrote:
Not filter my idea through a bittervet community.
After 11 years of people posting the same bad ideas rather than looking them up people tend to be blunt. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
294
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well the basic idea to evading locator agents is to stay mobile. They take time to pin your location down, and then more time for the person to travel there.
Then you start on why they're tracking you in the first place.
Is it a wardec? Large essays can and have been written on tactics to evade war targets if you're incapable of beating them in a fight. (And there's no shame in that, quite the opposite.) They apply regardless of use of locator agents.
Are they aiming to suicide gank you? Fly a ship not worth suicide ganking, or if you've done something to **** somebody off badly enough that they want to regardless of profit, see the very first point of this post and/or fit and fly to be harder to gank.
I'd need to spend hours exhaustively covering all the possibilities but really it comes down to basic knowledge of the game that any newbie could gain through 20 minutes on the new player forum. Changing LA mechanics isn't needed, I explained why.
Oh wait but that makes me a troll. (Please look up what that word actually means...) |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:I was reading EVENews24 and there was an interesting wall of text about intel gathering and how relatively easy in it to find people in a game this large. Using locator agents a hunter can go from having no idea where prey is to the system and station they are in. That got me thinking about game as a whole how players should be able to hide themselves in game. So I want to propose a new skill, Counter Intelligence. This skill would be a 3x social skill that was aimed disrupting the intelligence that can be gathered by a Locator Agent. For each level that you train in, it give better counterintelligence to your location in the cluster. This would give pilots a chance to "hide" from intel sources and require more eyes on targets. So for example if you train this skill to Lvl 1, then when asked about your location it will be reported back that you are in a group of systems, The system you are in, plus two more connecting. At Lvl2 it increase it to five systems. Lvl 3 will allow you to hide in constellations, Lvl 4 will give you 2 connecting constellations issue a warning that you are being searched for and Lvl 5 will give you three constellations and tell you who requested the search for you. Now this would be a very powerful skill, but I want to offer a counter to it as well. The higher your standing with the Agent you did the search will the more it counters the effects. So if you have basic standing with an Agent then the full effects apply, but if you have Standing of +5.5 then it counters Lvl 1 by showing two systems not three. If you had perfect standing with the agent then it would treat Counter Intelligence lvl 5 as lvl 1 and hide that you were looking for the target. With the size of New Eden I feel that it should be possible to hide if you want to and require people to come out and look for you. I think that giving people this chance will increase make intelligence gathering more hands on and could even give a chance for the hunter to to become the prey.
I like the idea of getting a warning when someone is stalking you. I'd say most of the time they are not though and they were actually there before you even if you didn't know it. This seems like a suggestion to have a cloak and dagger aspect to EVE. The thing with EVE is it's a game of information and where it gets tricky is, most of it is useless information or worse. It's just plain wrong. There are ways of making information, even the basic location information found in tracking mails, bad intell. EVE is about hiding in plain site. If you want cloak and dagger, it's an option.
It would be nice to get a mail so you know the game is a afoot, so to speak. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
350
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ocih wrote:I like the idea of getting a warning when someone is stalking you. I'd say most of the time they are not though and they were actually there before you even if you didn't know it. This seems like a suggestion to have a cloak and dagger aspect to EVE. The thing with EVE is it's a game of information and where it gets tricky is, most of it is useless information or worse. It's just plain wrong. There are ways of making information, even the basic location information found in tracking mails, bad intell. EVE is about hiding in plain site. If you want cloak and dagger, it's an option.
It would be nice to get a mail so you know the game is a afoot, so to speak. You seem to forget that EVE is a pure PvP game (and I didn't mean combat). So everything is an option ... for your opponent too ... being excluded from PvP is not an option, because you would infringe o your opponents options ,) That is, due to mechanics, you can still avoid it by various means, strategies and setups - and 'No', I did not mean to stay offline.
You actually steered in a good direction there without realizing it. What if Agents could infrom you on request (as part of a counter to locater and in the manner of counter-intel) if you have been located by another agent in the recent 30 min, hour, day ? That would be worth considering as a feature.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Ocih wrote:I like the idea of getting a warning when someone is stalking you. I'd say most of the time they are not though and they were actually there before you even if you didn't know it. This seems like a suggestion to have a cloak and dagger aspect to EVE. The thing with EVE is it's a game of information and where it gets tricky is, most of it is useless information or worse. It's just plain wrong. There are ways of making information, even the basic location information found in tracking mails, bad intell. EVE is about hiding in plain site. If you want cloak and dagger, it's an option.
It would be nice to get a mail so you know the game is a afoot, so to speak. You seem to forget that EVE is a pure PvP game (and I didn't mean combat). So everything is an option ... for your opponent too ... being excluded from PvP is not an option, because you would infringe o your opponents options ,) That is, due to mechanics, you can still avoid it by various means, strategies and setups - and 'No', I did not mean to stay offline. You actually steered in a good direction there without realizing it. What if Agents could infrom you on request (as part of a counter to locater and in the manner of counter-intel) if you have been located by another agent in the recent 30 min, hour, day ? That would be worth considering as a feature.
Being excluded from PvP isn't what it's about. It's about controlling PvP. I have 4 accounts, 12 characters, all with at least one T2 frigate trained for. Mostly covert frigates and interceptors. I just don't expect others to go to the lengths I went to in order to not be boxed in. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
350
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
I was giving you a leg up and you show me unrelated numbers ... am disappointed now. How does 'I got X' have anything to do with locator agents and the counter I am willing to take as your suggestion ? Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
195
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
How about this:
The higher your counter intelligence level is the more likely you are to discover that someone is tracking you and you get information on who they are and where they are currently. This would lead to more combat and a more interesting interaction between people using locator agents and the skill counterintelligence. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2490
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
It occurs to me that very few people these days seem to know what Jump Clones are.
Are you being permacamped into your station during wardec? Jump Clone out! Any moron should be able to figure that solution without being told.
Locator Agents are fine. If you need your hand held and need to be told when to look over your shoulder, you deserve to be stabbed in the back unawares. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
476
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Locator agents are easy to evade by this little trick they call "moving". No change to game mechanics needed.
Dear freaking god people really are utterly unwilling to just use their brains these days and want CCP to fix everything for them... It's so nice to see snobbery rule the day in EVE. Maybe someone can war dec you, wait for you to log out, then camp your station with 6 guys and you can 'use your brain' to figure out why it is you are being camped on log in every time you log in to the game.
psst, jump clones.
I used this in 0.0 when in a beachhead NPC system we were using for a road trip. If you logged in and the other side went for a massive station camp I'd take my chances on a jc to another station in the same system less camped if not camped at all. Most times....I won that gamble.
Worth noting this was my first week sop when joining a new crew. day 1...move 1 jc to station 1. day 2, move jc2 to station 2, day 3...etc. Catch is to get ships in the jc stations too. Get expensive somewhat....but better than sitting with your thumb up your ass all night long. Well that I accepted pvp in eve involves buying extra crap. Better to have and not need then need and not have.
Empire this works even better. You can jc all over the place.
the second out is to not log off in station. Expecting the hard camp that much...log off in space. Again I learned this in 0.0. Log in, and move your ass in case probers are good and running good gear. Safe pos make this a bit safer. But even in 0.0 I jumped on mIRC and asked about status/situation of pos I logged out from before login. |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
104
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 01:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:How about this:
The higher your counter intelligence level is the more likely you are to discover that someone is tracking you and you get information on who they are and where they are currently. This would lead to more combat and a more interesting interaction between people using locator agents and the skill counterintelligence.
I could agree to this. I think that it could be a conflict driver. My point on all of this was that I find that in a game this large, a player can go from no information to know where you are without themselves ever un-docking.
As to the idea of stay moving, which is a great idea, I contend that it only works if you know that people are looking for you in the beginning.
But thanks for the commentary and the ideas. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 04:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
The focus on high-sec stalking is fine and all, but as has been stated, that's already easy to deal with. (Easy being defined as requiring less effort than any one of said stalkers attempting to trap you). Locators are much more interesting outside the high-sec bubble, where notifications of them going off would either short-circuit content creation or be so constant as to be worse than useless. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
476
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 05:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:As to the idea of stay moving, which is a great idea, I contend that it only works if you know that people are looking for you in the beginning.
But thanks for the commentary and the ideas.
Usually this happens when you do something. Unless truly a random look up...most times I have seen people stalked or hunted is from getting on the radar in the first place.
Did they talk in local? Maybe even trash talk? I had more strict 0.0 homes...no talking in local. I apply this in empire as well. I have side chat channels with friends when feeling chatty and they are on. In my mission systems I am the ghost in the machine mostly.
Even when in the past when I have had vultures, baiters, etc trying to get me to do something stupid I don't use local like many I have seen who go all raged in local about no skilled hacks, l2p for real, etc. They see this and go "oooh, we got a live one" sometimes. Then sometime they care enough to burn a locator agent use since when you find someone who is looking to be a good source of emo raging tears...that name is worth writing down to some. |
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