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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:00:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
what crazy new tactics would the abaddon require then?
No idea, but I have a feeling I'll have a few good ones from trying these things out on the test server.
My point was more people complaining that the caldari boat will be the ship of choice for fleet battles, which under current fleet conditions is probably true.
However, if the perfect counter to long-range fleet engagements is effective use of short-range blaster ships, then suddenly the gallente ship comes in to its own.
Basically, until we can play with these ships (and I can fly 3 out of the 4), then we really don't know how they will perform. Trying to compare them directly is pointless until you see how each ones strengths plays against anothers weakness.
Should be fun.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Magma Diver
Duragon Pioneer Group
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:19:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Frank Horrigan I love it. I MUST HAVE IT
fix'd
Oh and TWINKIE HOUSE mother******.
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coffeetable
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:27:00 -
[363]
Preliminary assessment of a max-skill Hyperion with four Magstab IIs and four Tracking Computer IIs:
Looks like they're making it out to be the bane of battleships everywhere. Warp in, MWD to target, scram - and then shred it.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:35:00 -
[364]
While I agree with you Avon that we won't know exactly how theese ships affect the game untill we have tried them, I still think it's stupid that they are of such limited functionality. Caldari are the only ones that got something they didn't have before, all other races are left to figure out how their old ships stack up against the new ones that are only slightly different - that's why I think that we're not in for a very big surprise with how the new ships work, we have seen most of them in action because they are just updated versions of existing ships, except for the Rokh anyways.
The Rokh is probaply not going to be the king of fleetbattles, but the Maelstrom or Abaddon with tech 2 guns, it is however going to allow very low skilled Caldari pilots to compete in a field where everyone else is useless without tech 2. Overall it just reinforces the entire Caldari = Easy button mentality, if you don't train for Caldari you will spend twice and tripple the time getting skills before you're really effective, and even then you only get a slightly better gunship, and nothing even close to Caldari power in ratting, small gang combat and EW.
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rgreat
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:43:00 -
[365]
Edited by: rgreat on 26/07/2006 15:46:32
Originally by: coffeetable Preliminary assessment of a max-skill Hyperion with four Magstab IIs and four Tracking Computer IIs:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5987/gladtidingszv2.png
Looks like they're making it out to be the bane of battleships everywhere. Warp in, MWD to target, scram, decelerate to 200m/s or so - and then shred it.
No EW, no Scram, no Web, crappy tank. Easily jammed/damped. Damage below 1000 DPS, and only at point blank range.
It will suck.
Blasterthron is better already.
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GirlScout
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:43:00 -
[366]
Edited by: GirlScout on 26/07/2006 15:43:18 .
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murder one
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:47:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: coffeetable Edited by: coffeetable on 26/07/2006 15:28:36 Edited by: coffeetable on 26/07/2006 15:27:49 Edited by: coffeetable on 26/07/2006 15:27:15 Preliminary assessment of a max-skill Hyperion with four Magstab IIs and four Tracking Computer IIs:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5987/gladtidingszv2.png
Looks like they're making it out to be the bane of battleships everywhere. Warp in, MWD to target, scram, decelerate to 200m/s or so - and then shred it.
This is my greatest fear with this ship. What are the rest of us going to do once it gets in range - just die? 5 med slots too... cap injectors ftw.
How the HELL is it going to fit 4x TCs in the mids and have room for anything else? And WHY is it fitting 4x Magstabs when the 4th gives almost no improvement?
Lets look at a more realistic fitting:
Highs: 8x blasters (enough grid for T2 Neutrons? I doubt it, but w/e) Mids: MWD, Web, Scram, Injector, Multispec ECM (forget about putting anything else but an ecm in that 5th mid, it just isn't realistic to think otherwise) Lows: 2x LAR2, 2x EANM T2, Damage control, 2x Magstab 2s
Now tell me how much damage this thing is really putting out. Also factor in a smaller drone bay. Only 4 heavies? 3 Heavies? It may be able to beat a Blasterthron, but I doubt it, once you figure in tracking issues, cap issues etc. Also note that using your 8 slots for turrets leaves you with zero nos. A t2 Blasterthron w/ electrons and void w/ a heavy nos... ouch. Because I said so...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:48:00 -
[368]
Originally by: rgreat
Damage below 1000 DPS. Only point blank range.
It will suck.
Spoken like a true gallente.
I realize gallente ships have to have good dps to break tanks, but you do realize that most of us only see damage like that when we get wrecking hits...
Oh well, if i like gallente so much, i should train for them... :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:50:00 -
[369]
You know, I am probably a better Caldari pilot than I am Gal or Amarr, but I hardly ever use Caldari ships anymore. The thing is, whilst people rant on about how the Caldari are best at everything, it simply isn't true. They may be easier to start with (although I'm not sure they are), but they deffinately hit a brick wall once you skill up. There comes a point when the other races really surpass the Caldari ships.
I never understand all the "Caldari are Eve on easy mode" claims. Sure they may be good for PvE, or organised restricted engagements, but if you look at 'real' combat, they are sadly lacking.
You know, we used to hear all the time how the Amarrian ships were the devs toys, and nothing would ever be as good.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Mangus Thermopyle
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:50:00 -
[370]
Seems to me that every tier3 BS fills a role except Hyperion, which will be awful at long range and still lose bigtime against torp-Raven and nos-Domi on close range.
What exactly is Hyperions role? Who will fly it, and why?
Talk about useless ship
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.07.26 15:52:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Avon
No idea, but I have a feeling I'll have a few good ones from trying these things out on the test server.
Call me pessimistic, but I fear it will be used as a stabbed up tach platform
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Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:02:00 -
[372]
Sadly. 3 of 4 ships are a total failure. They will fail to perform in their so-called roles.
lol @ amarr as a tachy platform
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:05:00 -
[373]
I like them, except for the Hyperion.
It seems to be even less versatily as the megathron, so let's say I'm glad I've trained caldari BS 5 in some distant past.
Looking forward to using the Abadon in gank situations btw. More damage then the geddon, yummy
Old blog |
coffeetable
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:06:00 -
[374]
And for anyone interested: here's my full DPS assessment of all major fleet battleships. Covers a variety of weaponry, all ammo, all skills, and T2 damage and range mods, allows you to adjust the transversal and target radius of the engagement and then turns it into a pretty graph for you.
http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=11479
I think a lot of people will be pleasantly suprised. The Abaddon does serious amounts of damage, the Rokh can T1 snipe to 175km with Iron and a few T2 tracking computers, and the Hyperion (as said above) is shown to be pretty specialised in the department of involuntary battleship retirement.
Unfortunatly the Maelstrom doesn't really excel in terms of damage - it can achieve a fraction more DPS than a Tempest, but not much - but for Minmatar players, with Minmatar Battleship V, Shield Emission Systems V and a shield boost amp, an XL booster will trade 300 cap in return for 1,072 shields every five seconds.
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Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:09:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Rod Blaine I like them, except for the Hyperion.
It seems to be even less versatily as the megathron, so let's say I'm glad I've trained caldari BS 5 in some distant past.
Looking forward to using the Abadon in gank situations btw. More damage then the geddon, yummy
Yeah, I think I said the Hyperion could use some adjustment too.
It needs better tracking than the mega, not worse, and maybe a hidden reduction in sig penalty when using a MWD. The idea of a blasterboat is fine, but getting into range must be viable.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:15:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Avon I never understand all the "Caldari are Eve on easy mode" claims. Sure they may be good for PvE, or organised restricted engagements, but if you look at 'real' combat, they are sadly lacking.
I see plenty of ravens and scorpions in small gang combat, and Caldari ships were clearly amongst the favourites in the tournament. Scorpions are also so good in fleets that everyone calls the primary. Sure other races do some things better, and as I said, to a high skilled pilot the Rokh probaply won't be the ship of choice in fleets, because the range is capped at 250 anyways. (That being the only reason though!!) CAldari are not lacking in PvP, on the contrary, you cannot field a competent PvP force without any Caldari support anymore thanks to their EW monopoly.
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:17:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I think I speak for us all when I say we expected a long, detailed post from you.
I can still post it here if you like, but to summarize.. Abaddon and Rokh are horribly overpowered, Hyperion is a failure, Maelstrom is balanced (pending further information). Vindicator, Megathron, Tempest, Armageddon and Apocalypse have been made useless.
To get proper balance, Abaddon needs to lose ROF bonus and gain an armor HP bonus. Rokh needs to lose two turret hardpoints or 1 turret and only 5% optimal per level. Hyperion needs to lose mwd bonus in favour of blaster only damage bonus.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:18:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Noriath
I see plenty of ravens and scorpions in small gang combat, and Caldari ships were clearly amongst the favourites in the tournament. Scorpions are also so good in fleets that everyone calls the primary. Sure other races do some things better, and as I said, to a high skilled pilot the Rokh probaply won't be the ship of choice in fleets, because the range is capped at 250 anyways. (That being the only reason though!!) CAldari are not lacking in PvP, on the contrary, you cannot field a competent PvP force without any Caldari support anymore thanks to their EW monopoly.
That is a pretty out-dated view tbh. Scorps are a very rare sight due to the way EW and fleet fights have evolved.
The only Caldari ship I would put money on seeing would be a Crow.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:20:00 -
[379]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Hyperion needs to lose mwd bonus in favour of blaster only damage bonus.
See, we are back to my point about hybrid bonuses in general. Damn they messed up the game balance.
Blasters and rails should not be clumped together as 'hybrid' and share the same bonuses.
Pet hate #3 I think.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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arbitrary
Bad luck Clover Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:21:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Avon You know, we used to hear all the time how the Amarrian ships were the devs toys, and nothing would ever be as good.
All those that cry blood about the ships should of course consider the changes EVE have gone through since its conception; for in the end most ships/aspects comes around to mediocrity by the contiuned balancing act. More important EVE is a game, not life or death for real.
But I think we still have our rights to voice our opinions when it comes to the design; how faulty our opinion might be: after all most people posting here are of the vocal majority* and not whining about something will not do.
The rotten apples in this is those that goes over the edge insulting/threatening the devs (or their fellow posters); an gigant divide from just whining that your personal dream and designs didn't make it through to the end.
*dramaqueen might sometimes be more fitting.
___ Arbi all I want is for you to smile. |
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VeNT
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:23:00 -
[381]
DAMNIT! WE WANT HIGH RES RENDERS OF THEM!!!! how am I supposed to make a nice new minmater wallpaper without a nice big render of them?
-------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:31:00 -
[382]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I can still post it here if you like, but to summarize.. *snip*
Yeah, please do. Personally Im really enjoying reading what people think of the balance when it comes to these ships, and you have a nice reputation for having good opinions it seems.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:40:00 -
[383]
Digi, I don't think a blaster only bonus is possible, nor likely.
Just give it a falloff bonus and the problem is solved... or Falloff and change the MWD to tracking for a truly beastly combo.
The Mega is your damage champ, the Hyperion isn't far behind as the easy to use blaster ship that can orbit at 18k all day long (And still be usefull in a fleet fight).
8 turrets to the mega's 8.75 isn't that bad, (and not nearly as bad as having the Mega have 8.75 to the Hype's 10), and the extra distance only serves to help the Hyperion in both long and short range fighting.
I'm concerned about the Rokh as a blaster ship as well, but with less turrets and the Hyperion having a falloff bonus that concern would evaporate. Click Me
And Me |
BoinKlasik
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:42:00 -
[384]
Edited by: BoinKlasik on 26/07/2006 16:44:47 My only real point i guess with the calculations i did with the rokh was that in most cases a race pilot will attempt to capitolize on their ships bonuses (Minnie ship w/ a shield amp is far more amazing than something else + shield amp) but a well skilled caldari pilot will not be able to do that, we are limited to 2 sensor booster IIs (about that to lock at 250 as we dont know its lock range) and we cant fit mroe than one tracking comp before its ONLY for the tracking bonus. I can see interesting uses if somebody comes up w/ close range ammo variants/blaster setups, but its only once we can outrange the opponent AND STAY THERE that it will be useful, but as HK has mentioned on earlier threads (why are caldari fat pigs) we cant even keep other ships away from us properly either because (pick one: we cant turn, we dont have any speed)
I would agree w/ DC about reduction to a 5% optimal bonus, but then that doesnt match any other optimal bonus in the game, while every other bonus tends to get reused as the same % in every situation (all ships are 5% damage bonus etc) And hence would be a tad silly to have to change the bonus. But then again, i DONT want a caldari ship that can fire at over 300km. Mabye when the devs implement how they said they wanted to shorten up the range of battles (mentioned 100km bs fights) and optimal ranges are changed, it will become a little more reasonable AND the optimal bonus can be augmented, instead of simply being used before we have to jack our damage up.
PS: hk, yea i did the calculations corrently, but since i knew nothing about guns when i started the post i thought sharpshooting was 10% not 5, but the calculations are still correct in final numbers.
PPS edit: I cant comment any other ship re ally which saddens me as i have little experiance flying any non-caldari ship that isnt the arbitrator (I was drone happy at one point)
*doh, I broke my edited sig :/* *cries* this signature was lacking pink, I'll provide it for you. There. Looks better doesn't it? -Eris Fixed it for you. Oh, btw, yarr! ~kieron Didn't I tell you? The damsel moved in with me, we're having a great time. - Wrangler The damsel may not be distressed any more, but how many times does the informant have to be silenced before he gets the message? - Cortes
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Mangus Thermopyle
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:11:00 -
[385]
As I said earlier, a blaster boat is pretty useless, and only works in very specific situations.
But if it has to be a blaster boat (and CCP wants Gallente to get the worst tier3 BS), atleast give it some real bonuses like: - no CAP penalty for mwd - 20%/level falloff - 10%/level tracking - 5%/level damage
Only with stats like this will it truly be a good BS for closerange. And only with stats like this will it be able to stand a chance against torp-Raven and nos-Domi in a close range 1-on-1.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:18:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle As I said earlier, a blaster boat is pretty useless, and only works in very specific situations.
But if it has to be a blaster boat (and CCP wants Gallente to get the worst tier3 BS), atleast give it some real bonuses like: - no CAP penalty for mwd - 20%/level falloff - 10%/level tracking - 5%/level damage
Only with stats like this will it truly be a good BS for closerange. And only with stats like this will it be able to stand a chance against torp-Raven and nos-Domi in a close range 1-on-1.
Its not like minnie ships can beat those ships either you know, unless having a specific setup. Not sure why you want to balance the new gallente ship based on the ability to beat those 2 really good ships...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:21:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Avon
That is a pretty out-dated view tbh. Scorps are a very rare sight due to the way EW and fleet fights have evolved.
I beg to differ, scorpions show up all over the place in small gangs, even with the ECCM out the pure threat of an EW atack makes people waste their slots.
In fleets they are only getting rarer because you acctually need major skills to make EW work at long range, while when engagements took place at 150-180km every Caldari noobschnitzel could just hop into a Scorpion or blackbird, fit some racials and jam away all while not investing more then a few days in the skills as long as they had battleship to 3 or 4.
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Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:24:00 -
[388]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I think I speak for us all when I say we expected a long, detailed post from you.
I can still post it here if you like, but to summarize.. Abaddon and Rokh are horribly overpowered, Hyperion is a failure, Maelstrom is balanced (pending further information). Vindicator, Megathron, Tempest, Armageddon and Apocalypse have been made useless.
To get proper balance, Abaddon needs to lose ROF bonus and gain an armor HP bonus. Rokh needs to lose two turret hardpoints or 1 turret and only 5% optimal per level. Hyperion needs to lose mwd bonus in favour of blaster only damage bonus.
If the Rokh is going to be nerfed i think removing a low slot would be more desirable than making it as bad as the other Caldari turret ships. And not even you can deny how crap they are.
One less slot would be similar to the design philosophy of the Scorp or Navy Raven.
Caldari - BS idea |
Tara'Quoya Rax
Black-Sun
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:29:00 -
[389]
Seems like the tier3 battleships seem to be an extension of the tier1 battlecruisers, except for the Hyperion with its mwd bonus and in lesser extent the Abaddon with a RoF bonus.
The Rokh follows the Ferox very nicely but similar to the Ferox, I think it is overpowered. The 10% optimal bonus is actually a double bonus (2x 5%) so it's the only ship with 3 effective bonusses. Either the tank bonus should go and the 10% optimal bonus remains; or the tank bonus stays and the optimal bonus gets reduced to 5%.
Also, a full rack of 8 turret hardpoints is quite controversial with the caldari ship paradigm. The next highest number of turret hardpoints is 5 (Ferox) I believe. Quite a jump up if you ask me. I wonder if we will see Minmatar getting 6+ launcher hardpoint battleships for instance...
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KillerLU
Sanction.
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Posted - 2006.07.26 17:39:00 -
[390]
At the first look they are crap, except the caldari one (as always...) Hope to see the stats soon, maybe then it would get clearer.
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