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Orakkus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2011.11.23 17:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, now that we have the uberness of the Tier 3 Battlecruisers behind us, well, at least a little bit of it. What should we do with the old and classic Tier 1 Battlecruisers? For the sake of shameless posting and a desire to get more of a readership, I have broached this subject today here at my blog: 2nd Anomaly from the Left - Tier 1 Battlecruiser Love. That being said, and blatently advertised, I know I am not the only one out there with ideas on this and so I'd love to hear what other suggestions people have come up with. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
20
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around. |
Slade Hoo
Retired Gunslingers
1
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.
This |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
45
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
I disagree that tier 2's are too good. It's tier 1's could use a boost. I don't think they need much love, they just need their slots/HP/CPU/PG increased to be comparable to tier 2's (obviously mineral costs should go up too). All of them have their own little flavor, so no change in bonuses are needed. CS's would require slot adjustments as well to reflect their new tech 1 counterparts.
I think it's appropriate to also say why I think tier 2 BC's are fine as is since many think them overpowered. They fit into the brawler line up perfectly, being between BS's and cruisers (t1 or t2) in dps/tank. Now yes they can have BS level dps but then have cruiser tank or they can have cruiser dps with BS tank. But they can't have both at the same time. HAC's and other t2 cruisers make their name on mobility, not dps/tank. And there is no disputing that a vagabond, ishtar, zealot or cerberus has an overwhelming speed/agility advantage over even the quickest tier 2 BC's. The recons can claim the same too. Even CS's have their place.
CS's fit into the brawler lineup pretty well despite their unpopularity. They don't have any major advantage in dps or buffer, although both are slightly better. Their advantage is in resistance which results in logi being far more effective. The last few times I went out in a BS heavy fleet (ages ago tbh), I actually favored the absolution. I didn't regret that move despite being one of the higher priority targets for the opposing side. A good CS with skilled logi support is far more difficult to kill than a BS or t1 BC with the same logi support. And they don't have to sacrifice any dps to be that tough. |
Dr Cedric
Orbital Industry and Research.
14
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think one of the problems CCP faces with changing a Tiered system is that not only are the ships in that tier, but also the arbitrary cost of the BPO for the item. If either the Tier 2's were nerfed or the Tier 1's buffed, there would be an epic whine post that would never end over the advantage or disadvantage that current BPO owners have.
IIRC a Ferox BPO costs roughly 250M, and Drake close to 300M (estimate). If I've spent the last year researching the heck out of my BPO's, and all of a sudden CCP says that my Ferox BPO is way better, or my Drake BPO is way worse, you'd better believe there would be some forum posts.
To undo the tier system, they'd almost have to release "mk II" blueprints for whichever ship they decided to change. That doesn't sound like much fun for those of us that are in the research game.
Dunno...thats the best I can do.
Ced |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
20
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:I disagree that tier 2's are too good.
The vast blobs of Drakes and Hurricanes beg to differ. Tier 1 BCs are not bad ships based on slot layout etc. - they're bad ships because tier 2s exist. |
egola
NSFW federation
22
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
one word: HELLCATS, tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE. in a fight where both sides have equal numbers hellcats will beat the living carp out of Canes and Drakes, they have buffer but nowhere near BS extent, they also have dps but once again they don't have BS dps. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
21
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE. Basically this. ^ |
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
19
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
egola wrote:one word: HELLCATS, tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE. in a fight where both sides have equal numbers hellcats will beat the living carp out of Canes and Drakes, they have buffer but nowhere near BS extent, they also have dps but once again they don't have BS dps.
So I am sorry, but I have been gone a while, and have been out of 0.0 for a good bit. Can someone explain to me what Hellcat fleets are? I presume they are some kind of counter to Alpha fleets or RR fleets, but that is the extent of my understanding. Are they Blaster/AC/Pulse/Ham fit BS fleets?
Thanks in advance.
Edited for fail spelling. |
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
6
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.
And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf.
Instead of having that pig headed nerf everything attitude how about be buff the under performers instead bring the tier ones close CLOSE to the performance of tier 2 but still not quite as good. |
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Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
483
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Emily Poast wrote:Can someone explain to me what Hellcat fleets are? Amarr Battleships equipped with Pulse Lasers and Scorch.
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Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
54
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tier 2 BCs are too good compared to cruisers. BCs got more of everything compared to cruisers with very few drawbacks. They should be to cruisers what destroyers are to frigates. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
21
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Posted - 2011.11.23 20:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf.
Umm, how about because the Rifter doesn't obsolete every other frigate? Idiot. Try actually thinking about the problem rather than making stupid generalisations.
Besides, the comparison you made there has a completely different context to the matter at hand. |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
56
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Posted - 2011.11.23 21:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yeah, but BCs have more mids and lows compared to the top tier cruisers while the destroyers actually have less mids and lows than the top tier frigs. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
22
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Posted - 2011.11.23 21:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Max Von Sydow wrote:Yeah, but BCs have more mids and lows compared to the top tier cruisers while the destroyers actually have less mids and lows than the top tier frigs.
Point. |
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.23 21:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
The only "nerf" tier 2 battlecruisers need is that some of their rigslots need to be large rigslots.
Tier 2 battlecruisers come close to battleships and battleships if you lose the lower tiered ones aren't even that more expensive after insurance. The thing that makes the big big difference is the large vs medium rig size, where with a battlecruiser the lost rigs are just a bit of isk, for a battleship pilots the rigs are the largest part of the costs when his ship blows up. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2011.11.23 21:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
my ferox needs +1 or 2 mids |
Songbird
38
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Posted - 2011.11.23 22:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
^^ that.
I think an extra slot + powergrid + CPU could do wonders for tier 1 BC's. Most of them have different functions than tier 2:
- ferox is turrets , drake is missiles, cane is passive tank , cyclone is active, brutix is turrets , myrm is drones. prophecy has bonus to armor , harbi to guns.
Look at tier 1 BS's vs tier 2 , different function and used differently but can achieve similar tank and gank.
What we need is tier 1 normalization : similar amount of weapon mounts ,highs, mids, lows and of course the grid + CPU to fit them. Different functions - this they already have. A bit less EHP than tier 2. That's what tier 1s should look like. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
23
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Posted - 2011.11.23 23:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Knock a mid off the Drake and/or change the resist bonus - preferably both actually. Harbinger ia basically fine, has to pick between firepower, tank and mobility, but the Prophecy needs a new nich+¬. Myrmidon is basically fine, possibly remove a slot or two Hurricane knock off a turret and highslot and reduce the speed or agility slightly
But the biggest nerf that needs to happen to bring BCs in line? Nerf insurance payouts on them. |
Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
67
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Posted - 2011.11.23 23:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tier 1's are fine in theory. In practice they suffer from having terrible bonuses, or terrible pilots.
Cyclone: Probably the best tier 1. A good cost efficient solo PVP boat that will get many to engage when they wouldn't engage against a hurricane.
Ferox: Suffers from hybrids being bad. Will have to wait until the buff really goes through to see how well they'll do.
Brutix: Active armor rep bonus is useless, especially when we have the myrmidon for all active armor needs. The ship needs something else to make it more viable than a shield gank fit.
Prophecy: The worst of the bunch. The armor resist bonus is great, but the laser capacitor use bonus is worthless, as with no corresponding damage or rate of fire bonus, autocannons become the best option in every situation. Switch the capacitor use bonus to a damage bonus.
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grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
6
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Posted - 2011.11.23 23:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf. Umm, how about because the Rifter doesn't obsolete every other frigate? Idiot. Try actually thinking about the problem rather than making stupid generalisations. Besides, the comparison you made there has a completely different context to the matter at hand. Then again I wouldn't expect much else from a moron that can't understand the difference between "all the same" and "situationally better". Quote:They should be to cruisers what destroyers are to frigates. To an extent they are. Higher sig radius, better DPS, but still capable of swatting the size below them. The big difference however is that BCs actually have decent tank to go with their mobility and firepower - something destroyers currently don't. Thankfully it seems CCP have the right idea with the new tier 3s, making them trade tank and point defence for their firepower.
Would you like your mummy now you total elitist idiot
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
23
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Posted - 2011.11.23 23:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:Would you like your mummy now you total elitist idiot
Oh look, still nothing resembling a valid point. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
I say give the Tier 1's a 2% bonus to their racial gang link per level. Would give people a reason to actually use them, without buffing them to Tier 2 level. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
208
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Posted - 2011.11.24 03:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Give t1 bcs 16 small guns. |
Kilobar
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
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Posted - 2011.11.24 03:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hey :-) I had an idea for an EWAR BC in the ideas forum. You have some excellent ideas here. I lol'd at a mining BC but a heavy log I ship or ewar ship is a very nice idea. I also really like the idea of a scout BC. I just hope CCP does something with them because I'm going to miss my brutix when the tier 3 comes out. There are still many niches that need filling though. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 07:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.
They did, they are called Tornado and Oracle, and they are going to be quite capable of knocking the t2 BC down a rung. |
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
19
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Posted - 2011.11.24 08:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around. They did, they are called Tornado and Oracle, and they are going to be quite capable of knocking the t2 BC down a rung.
Only if they start at range. Its way too easy for another BC to get under their guns.
On the Tier 1 BC, just give them all one extra slot and a corresponding boost to grid/cpu. The Prophacy needs its bonuses fixed.
And not to beat a dead horse, bit the fact that ALL FOUR races have at least one of their BCs regularly fit projectiles is another symptom of the disease/utopia that is minmitar. ;) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
128
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Posted - 2011.11.24 09:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote: And there is no disputing that a vagabond, ishtar, zealot or cerberus has an overwhelming speed/agility advantage over even the quickest tier 2 BC's. The recons can claim the same too. Even CS's have their place.
Can't be arsed to check, but I'm pretty sure that a sensibly-fit Hurricane can be faster and more agile than most T1 cruisers and HACs, let alone recons. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
45
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Posted - 2011.11.24 10:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
You really should check such things.
Nano-cane (1x nano): 2x TE, 2x gryo, DCII): 1434m/s, 10.2s align Vagabond (1x nano): 2717m/s, 6.9s align Cerb (1x nano): 1505m/s, 6.8s align Curse (2x nano): 1703m/s, 7.8s align Lachesis (no nano's but shield tanked): 1469m/s, 10.6s align Rapier (no nano's but shield tanked): 1643m/s, 9.9s align time
Any questions?
As for them being too good for their price, I don't think so. A fitted BC costs about 75M isk currently, a fitted geddon costs about 160M and an abaddon around 250M. A vagabond will run you around 150-160M fitted. The reason they are and always have been so popular is their versatility. BS's are good at killing BS's and BC's but aren't good for much else. BC's are good at killing everything from frigates to capitals. HAC's are good at blobbing things and running away while recons are good at providing a variety of supporting roles. It's the huge list of potential targets that make BC gangs the norm and I don' think there is a way to change that. They strike that perfect balance of factors that make them the best at nothing but good at everything. The end result being ships that in a lot of ways are the best overall.
They are easily beaten however by using more specialized fleets such as brawler BS's or sniper-ish HAC's. All that said, the drake is overpowered. Or more specifically, heavy missiles are overpowered. You don't see too many complaints about HAM drakes after all do you? |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
128
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Posted - 2011.11.24 14:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Let's just say that I would prefer the gap between the mobilities and agilities of those HACs and recons and the Hurricane to be larger. As your figures show, the gap between the numbers for the single-nano Hurricane and non-Minmatar cruisers is frequently quite small, while adding another nano or rigs can give the Hurricane ~1550 m/s. But in any case, I'd be happy to nerf the Drake at the same time as the Hurricane.
The HAM Drake is very powerful in its niche, but there's nobody complaining about it because its close-range niche is risky and of limited flexibility, and it's easy to counter.
Stating that HMs are overpowered is an interesting one. At face value it sounds reasonable. But is the Caracal overpowered? Or the Cerberus? Hardly. This suggests that the problem isn't HMs alone, but rather the combination of HMs and Drake, probably related to the ease of fitting MWD, tank and HMLs on the Drake, since a HML Caracal has no room for a LSE without fitting mods. You could add the Tengu here too. |
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