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Jo TwoTimes
Just Like Home
1
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Posted - 2014.09.04 06:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Team sniping is the fact to bid on a team at the very last second to prevent people to compete. its been noted as annoying by a lot of people, so I propose this thread to discuss ways of fixing it.
My own proposal (maybe it has been proposed somewhere but cant find it):
when a bit is made less than 10 min before end of auction, the time limit for the auction is push back to a least 10 min in the future. That way competitors have a chance to to bit some more.
-huge drawbacks: - you could grief people by outbidding small amounts and keeping everyone else money hostage unitl the bid is resolved. - you can try to win an attrivtion wa rby bein the last one at the keyboard to counter that: - when the auction as entered "extended time", you can only add a min amount of 5% of the max bid to any system pot. That way the max bid should rise real fast and situation should be resolved in a couple of hours, ie within a normal play sessions (no 8+ hours fights) - if an auction is on "extended" time and nobody has put money on a system for , say , 1 hour, all money in the pot for this system is returned: that way you can't easily take other people money hostage: Or, add a way for anyone to withdraw its money from the pool when the auction is on extended time and your bid is not the winning one
This will NOT allow you to compete for an auction that ends when you are not at the keyboard, but this issue can be mitigated if enough teams are available round the clock.
For the other obvious system: hidden max bid (e-bay style) , i just do not see how you can make it work with a system common pot where several unrelated people can put money in.
What do you think of this system ?
(numbers to be tweaked of course) |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
64
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Posted - 2014.09.04 07:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've said this before, you missed it.
Proxy bidding. You enter a maximum bid, the UI shows the current winning bid which is above the 2nd best bid but not the maximum. The winning bid will be .01 over 2nd best. You can do an assessment, make a maximum bid, and go to bed. Better, because alarm clocking for this nonsense is for the nonsensical. Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
124
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Posted - 2014.09.04 10:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Or maybe, I dunno
BID YOUR MAX at first, then if someone outbids you, the team is more valuable to them |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
67
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Posted - 2014.09.05 01:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Or maybe, I dunno
BID YOUR MAX at first, then if someone outbids you, the team is more valuable to them
Maybe because bidding anything more than the previous person bid is a waste of money? This is why second-bid auctions are a thing. (... even in the imperfect form that they appear on eBay, for example.)
The real problem here, in my experience, is that there is no way to refresh the team bids. It refreshes once the first time you open the list of teams up on offer, and then you have to restart your client to refresh bids. |
Jalebi
Economic Stimulus Corp
23
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Posted - 2014.09.05 01:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Or maybe, I dunno
BID YOUR MAX at first, then if someone outbids you, the team is more valuable to them Maybe because bidding anything more than the previous person bid is a waste of money? This is why second-bid auctions are a thing. (... even in the imperfect form that they appear on eBay, for example.) The real problem here, in my experience, is that there is no way to refresh the team bids. It refreshes once the first time you open the list of teams up on offer, and then you have to restart your client to refresh bids.
lol |
Team Bidders
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.09.05 06:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Or maybe, I dunno
BID YOUR MAX at first, then if someone outbids you, the team is more valuable to them Maybe because bidding anything more than the previous person bid is a waste of money? This is why second-bid auctions are a thing. (... even in the imperfect form that they appear on eBay, for example.) The real problem here, in my experience, is that there is no way to refresh the team bids. It refreshes once the first time you open the list of teams up on offer, and then you have to restart your client to refresh bids.
I found out that if I bid extra one ISK, the info window will refresh itself. |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
65
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Posted - 2014.09.05 09:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Team Bidders wrote:I found out that if I bid extra one ISK, the info window will refresh itself.
I've seen it update when I move to another industry tab and then back. But then my snipes have been so out of proportion to the top visible bid I may have missed a hundred bids without seeing them or caring.
Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
396
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Posted - 2014.09.05 16:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
If the time added was done with a random number generator it might work.
Have it add 2-8 mins randomly on any given bid. Do not set an exact number to add. |
Jo TwoTimes
Just Like Home
1
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Posted - 2014.09.05 17:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:I've said this before, you missed it.
Proxy bidding. Members of a bidding pool each enter a maximum bid. They and everyone else can see the current best bid which is .01 over second best, but nothing else. The winning bid will be .01 over 2nd best and pool of bidders pay their percentage based on each individual maximum bid. This is a huge improvement, because alarm clocking for this nonsense is for the nonsensical. This message has been sponsored by an admitted sniper who enjoys sniping.
Your idea sucks because the alarm clockers now have to stay up hours to drag out the bidding. This Jita mentality should stay in Jita.
your idea is valid (and not mutually exclusive with mine), but i think they address different issues: - with your "hidden max bid" you do not really prevent some one getting a team if he is there at the end of the auction if you are not: he would just bid until he reaches your max. if he so interested.
That would also promote a variety of scams: you propose to someone to each put 100M in the pot to make sure you get a team where you want it, then you do not put anything, as your max bid is hidden the other guy doesnt know as long as you have the winning bid;if you win, you sshare the expense and the other guy would basically buy the team for you. (scam possibilties might not be bad otoh)
-what i am trying to address is the situation where 2 or more people are there at the very end of the auction: then whoever is luckiest with ping will win; which is not fun imho.
The goal of pushing the auction deadline is to allow true competion by 2 bidders in that situation until its resolved by the invisible hand of the deeper wallet (i might be misremembering adam smith here ). Auctions with live competition are fun and addictive: is he bluffing ? will i still got a profit if i put just 2 million more ? etc..
Its funnier and thus better gameplay to me, provided one makes sure that the bidding war cannot be dragged for hours which would be bad as you mention. That is why I propose a min increment of 5% or 10% of max bid each time: The max bid woud rise exponentially, and exponential growth doesnt last: with a 10% of max bid minimal increment + 5 min extension for each max bid rise, the max bid would at least double in about 35 min ( and you can bid as much as you want if you are in a hurry), so whoever wants the team more will have it, instead of whoever is luckiest
Ireland VonVicious wrote: If the time added was done with a random number generator it might work.
Have it add 2-8 mins randomly on any given bid. Do not set an exact number to add.
why ?
Obviously, while we are on the subject of team , a properlw refreshing gui would be cool too. also a filter on team you have put a bid on and remove the range filter form team bidding it has no purpose i tihnk ? origin of the team is irrelevant afaik? |
Qinby
ImNo6
6
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Posted - 2014.09.06 01:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hi SJ ASTRALANA
Might missunderstod what you mean with incremental bids up to your set maximum.
Wouldn't that just result in that the winning bid ends up with the bid with the highest maximum BUT with the "smallest" possible margin?
In other Words the only effect would be to let the Winner to get of cheaper.
If you with sniping mean raising with "0,1" over highest bid at the last second, that doesnt work/happen.
I bid 8-10 times higher than highest bid at the last second and nearly Always lose anyway. The reason for this is propably not that somebody "is sniping me" but that somebody is willing to pay more than me either by not being as greedy as me with profit margins or saving more than me with the team.
If you bid 2 bill from the start you might not get outbid, have to try that next time.
The only thing to do at the moment is to bid as late as possible and bid what you are willing to pay maximum, there is no way of getting of cheap if the team is good.
If it saves you 6 bill a month bid 1-2 bill, if you loose at 1 bill bid 2 bill next time... you still save 4 bill. This means that smaller manufacturers can't get hold of good teams but have to move to where the teams are.
Then when you have your teams you just have to hope it doesnt attract to many other manufacturers that drives the manu index thru the roof.
I don't realy understand what the problem is except that it can be annoying to lose an auction on a team one wants and also if you get it be afraid you paid a lot of Money unneccessary since you dont know what the seccond largest bid was.
That's just Life as ussual...
The only practical thing one can do is to bid on many teams (its enough with the minimum amount) even if you dont want them and try to estimate what you Think they are Worth and try to keep track of what the highest bid is near the end of the bidding.
What they are Worth to you shouldn't be a problem.
Then you get the mail when the auction ends "you lost" but you get to know what the winning bid was. That way you build up some kind of estimate of what "is going on" and as far as i know this is the only way to get intel on the auctions.
That people pool Money to bid on teams for the system they are in are propably not very common since you realy try to stay as alone as possible with the new production index.
I Think it will become clearer how to act "when the dust settles".
The only problems i see is that there could be better filter/sorting/searching options AND AN EASY WAY TO SEE WHAT TEAMS YOU ARE BIDDING ON (i use pen and paper...)
This is how we do it.
Rgds Qinby
By the way nice tool.
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SJ Astralana
Syncore
65
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Posted - 2014.09.07 15:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Qinby wrote: Wouldn't that just result in that the winning bid ends up with the bid with the highest maximum BUT with the "smallest" possible margin?
Let's agree that alarm clocking an auction sucks. You want to bid on a team, and I want to as well, and neither of us wants to take a day off of work to do it. Either proxy bidding or a silent auction achieves that aim. Sniper rules don't, because getting up at 3am is for idiots. To be honest I'm not fussed, as the last thing I want is to baby-sit a damned fuel block auction in my busy life. If some one with no life wants to decide that a proxy bid team is worth .01 more to him than me, he wins the proxy auction. Fine. If I wasn't willing to bid more, that's the way it goes. The proxy auction works in his favor, and I'll bid the next one. In a silent auction, he bids its worth and outbids me by a half bil or whatever. It works both ways, and I truly can live with that. I don't want an unfair advantage, I simply want to get away from telling my gay lover I need to **** off for half an hour to babysit some damned team to snipe it. I have to snipe because it's a winning play, but I would much rather just do a valuation, place my bid, and get back to Raul. Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
202
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Posted - 2014.09.07 19:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just give it a fuzzy clock. Much like a wh, only give a vague value for how long remains on the bid. 7 days 3 days 1 day 12 hours 6 hours less than an hour (but obviously it doesn't read this at exactly an hour to go). 20% either way. If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough. |
Alphari Vendren
Applied Vendrenics
14
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Posted - 2014.09.08 03:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4531146#post4531146 |
Patty Loveless
Minute to Midnight
2
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't see how this mechanic is broken. If you bid the most, you win. If someone else bids more, you loose. No one said you need to ride the razor's edge of profitability by only winning by the smallest of margins.
You do realize that complaining about this is like complaining about someone undercutting you on the market by more than 0.01 isk and crying about them hurting ~your~ profits. I bid on many teams, loose most of them. Guess they just aren't as valuable to me than they were to others. Has very little to do with the timing. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alphari Vendren wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4531146#post4531146
If I had 5 isk for everytime CCP said that |
Patty Loveless
Minute to Midnight
3
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Posted - 2014.09.12 17:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
I was just thinking here. Maybe the problem is that bids are public. If you simply made bids private until the end of the auction, no one would feel like they got 'sniped', just out bid. This is the purpose after all, to bid what you are willing to pay for the team, not be 0.1 isk-ing the next the highest amount.
You guys are trying to make this work just like the normal item market, and then crying foul when it doesn't work the same way. |
Jo TwoTimes
Just Like Home
1
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Posted - 2014.09.13 21:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
It seems i am not on the same page as some people here: some argue that its fair because you can always place the bid you want; This is not perfect; because the bidder who is ther eat the auction end as more info than the one than must blind-bid
Hidden bids would make thinks fair for everyone,
but i am looking for a way for the process to be more fun
its also a game and not a tycoon simulator after all
And to me just bidding what my spreadsheet told me to bet, or a system of hidden bet, are not fun.
What would be fun with my original proposal (imho) is the possibility to bid in real time against someone, to see who would chicken out the first etc... |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1580
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Posted - 2014.09.14 18:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jo TwoTimes wrote:Team sniping is the fact to bid on a team at the very last second to prevent people to compete. its been noted as annoying by a lot of people, so I propose this thread to discuss ways of fixing it.
This is bidding PvP and sounds like it's working as intended. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
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