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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 30/07/2006 13:03:07 In atempt to reduce huge blob fights. Make gang sizes related to skills. Squadron Command etc. Hard coded fleet size cap. want larger fleet make two.
This would promote leaderships roles. The fleet formation skill tree could branch to require special skills to allow Capital ships to the fleet etc.
Huge fleets would require huge skills.
skills
-Squadron Command (r. leadership lvl 2) 1 gang member per skill lvl
-Advanced Squadron command 1 additional gang member per lvl -Fleet Command 2-3 gang members per lvl -Advanced fleet command.
What do you think ?
Lets keep this thread on topic thanks.
G.G
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:05:00 -
[2]
Won't work. Multiple gangs, shared chat channel, voice server. All you've done is seriously limit the useability of gang modules. (And those limits are seriously low, in any case - they will prevent cooperation between small groups of low-skill friends for missions, etc.)
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:12:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Won't work. Multiple gangs, shared chat channel, voice server. All you've done is seriously limit the useability of gang modules. (And those limits are seriously low, in any case - they will prevent cooperation between small groups of low-skill friends for missions, etc.)
Basics gangs of 1-5 should naturally require only few hours of training. So your point is not valid.
Gangs could be tied together with special high lvl skills allowing a Supreme Fleet commander to feed bonuses to multiple fleets perhaps.
Offcourse multiple fleets could be formed thats the whole point.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:28:00 -
[4]
So if it can be bypassed that easily, what IS the point besides nerfing gang modules?
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Maya Rkell So if it can be bypassed that easily, what IS the point besides nerfing gang modules?
this is not about nerfing gang modules
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:39:00 -
[6]
But that is the actual effect of the change.
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:54:00 -
[7]
Idea is to make it harder to make huge gangs. The effects of gang modules would work just like they did before. The limit would be for the formation of the fleet. Any bonuses provided by gang /fleet members inside it would work just fine.
The limitation would be the gang modules to effect another fleet thus would require the fleet coordination skill.
I see your point. Discussion is good
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:59:00 -
[8]
Artificial fleet gang organisation and formations wont work, people will go around it.
Thing that will work wuld be putting aerial effects and modules that wuld work better with formations and subfleets. --- Bookmark improvements Player owned brokers |
Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Artificial fleet gang organisation and formations wont work, people will go around it.
Thing that will work wuld be putting aerial effects and modules that wuld work better with formations and subfleets.
PLS continue
How do they go around it? They dont form a gang ? Actually its not artificial if you simply cant form a group without skills etc.
In EVE there is too much going around problems using alts to do everything etc. -> points finger to fleets of alts (Goons)
So add higher in the chain skills that provide additional bonuses to gangs / fleets.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:24:00 -
[10]
I described how they'd avoid it in my first post - set up multiple small gangs, used a shared normal Eve chat channel and a voice server.
You're talking about training a quite a few skills to use the allready skill-intensive gang modules. This is a drastic nerf to their usefulness. You can't "compensate" by letting them do precisely what they do now without said skills, when you caused the problem with the idea in the first place!
If anything, this will lead to "command alts", trained by the big alliances solly to make fleets. THOSE gangs will be able to get good use out of command modules..anyone else is not going to be able to use them effectively, giving the bigger alliances yet another advantage from playing the game mechanics. (and not the game)
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
I described how they'd avoid it in my first post - set up multiple small gangs, used a shared normal Eve chat channel and a voice server.
yes nothing wrong with that. It reduces the effect of timing / Group warping everyone at the same time. Better to have actuall Fleet operators.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
You're talking about training a quite a few skills to use the allready skill-intensive gang modules. This is a drastic nerf to their usefulness.
Where is this ? NO the skill requirements for gang modules stay the same and they effect all members in gang.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
You can't "compensate" by letting them do precisely what they do now without said skills, when you caused the problem with the idea in the first place! )
I dont quite follow you here.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
If anything, this will lead to "command alts", trained by the big alliances solly to make fleets. THOSE gangs will be able to get good use out of command modules..anyone else is not going to be able to use them effectively, giving the bigger alliances yet another advantage from playing the game mechanics. (and not the game)
Yes you need a high skilled player to let the bonuses pass to a another fleet / gang. But no you dont need any other skills to use the current in the game gang modules.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:56:00 -
[12]
With TS coordernation, especially command channel, the difference in coordernation time is going to be meaningless for organised fleets. It purely hurts newer players, especially those who have been wardecced and don't have those mechanisms in place.
Gang modules have an effect which is PER GANG MEMBER. Boosting a gang of 100 is ten times better than boosting a gang of 10. Requiring an additional set of skills trained over and above the allready high rank, extensive set to use the current skills to best advantage is a drastic nerf, especially when you consider the extremely low limits for gang size you are posulating.
The alliances and dedicated PvP corps don't need this sort of advantage - their less PvP-dedicated enemies are the ones who will suffer.
Hierarchial gangs with bonuses is a seperate idea, note - not hard limits on gang size, but benefits for organising within a SINGLE gang structure.
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.30 15:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Maya Rkell With TS coordernation, especially command channel, the difference in coordernation time is going to be meaningless for organised fleets. It purely hurts newer players, especially those who have been wardecced and don't have those mechanisms in place.
The skills wont limit newer players either they can still form their small gangs as they could in the past. The lack of coordination mechanics you mean (TS coordination) will hurth them the same now or with the gang skills.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Gang modules have an effect which is PER GANG MEMBER.
They boost all members in the gang not only single member.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Boosting a gang of 100 is ten times better than boosting a gang of 10. Requiring an additional set of skills trained over and above the allready high rank, extensive set to use the current skills to best advantage is a drastic nerf, especially when you consider the extremely low limits for gang size you are posulating.
Yes you have to focus now. The extremely low limits are not that extreme + they are a rough sugegstion and anyone can make their suggestions about them + devs would finalize them should they enter the game.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The alliances and dedicated PvP corps don't need this sort of advantage - their less PvP-dedicated enemies are the ones who will suffer.
This might be right. Then again weak corporations will allways suffer when faced against dedicated ppl. besides the advantage is not that major to be considered a threat it is more of a nessecity for a dedicated Large war machine in my proposed system.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Hierarchial gangs with bonuses is a seperate idea, note - not hard limits on gang size, but benefits for organising within a SINGLE gang structure.
This hierarcial gang idea is in direct controversy with your comment above. But do explain more Id like to hear and so would many others I bet.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:51:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 30/07/2006 18:52:32 Maya's right about just about everything except the current usefulness of gang modules - experienced their effects with a high leadership SP character (in a T1 BC) this weekend, and it's serious business.
Specifically, all it will do is force work-arounds (yes, it is entirely possible to run a huge gang totally ignoring gang warp, provided the gang knows how to listen on comms) and nerf gang modules, which are doing ok atm but which would be counter to the direction CCP is going in. Also, heirachial gangs are a very good idea.
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Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.30 20:22:00 -
[15]
It would also nerf covert ops.
'Hi guys, I have a perfect warp in point on this enemy fleet - which bunch of you wants to be able to warp in on them?'
Zarch AlDain The Blackwater Brigade Huzzah Federation
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Serend
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Posted - 2006.07.30 21:29:00 -
[16]
The OP is trying to accomplish a couple of things: make it harder to bring large, well-controlled gangs into combat, and do something about the abysmal lag we suffer each time a fleet of over 100 ships engages. I think both objectives will improve the quality of play in Eve. For one thing, large gang coordination in Eve now is much too easily accomplished. Making it harder is good idea.
And we all know something has to be done about the lag. Let's get creative, folks.
Serend Black Lance D2
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.07.30 22:38:00 -
[17]
This is the wrong way to do it though, IMO.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:05:00 -
[18]
Joerd Toastius, they CAN be effective, but only with a latge number of SP's. My argument is that requiring an additional large load of skill points for them to be useful is an uneeded nerf to them.
Glarion Garnier, less dedicated PvP corperations can suffer, yes - what you need to avoid are game mechanics which predudice themselves against those coerpations, like said gang size limits.
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.07.31 06:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Serend The OP is trying to accomplish a couple of things: make it harder to bring large, well-controlled gangs into combat, and do something about the abysmal lag we suffer each time a fleet of over 100 ships engages. I think both objectives will improve the quality of play in Eve. For one thing, large gang coordination in Eve now is much too easily accomplished. Making it harder is good idea.
And we all know something has to be done about the lag. Let's get creative, folks. D2
Yes you clearly understand the reasons behind my idea.
Often it is so that when ppl feel their way of doing something easily gets in the firing line they start to defend it. Even tho the actual system in the making would be better for the whole and for the actual defenders as well.
And Im not saying my idea is some how miraculously error free. no no.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:19:00 -
[20]
If you want people to get into small gangs, just encourage small gangs somehow. Don't just arbitrarily penalise "large gangs", because people will a) get ****ed off and then b) find a workaround.
@Maya I don't think it's a nerf, I just think it's an encouragement to specialise, but eh. Whatever :P
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 31/07/2006 09:58:21 I see a lot of small gangs around to be honest, theres no need encouraging them. They simply require less people and not everyone has 500 people all the time on alliance chat and can call 100 people to arms in reasonable time. Most fleets (on all sides) I see are 10-60 ships, and big blob warfare (like 80-160 ships) happens rarely, only in critical situations or major invasions or events, maybe 2-3 times a week.
small gangs are alreday more effective then blob in right situation and this does not need any mechanical magic. When there is need to do max damage to random ratters/miners on enemy teritory, or when You want to chase and kill small enemy group with high maneuverability roaming over our teritory, spliting fleet into smaller gangs is hell more effective as far as You have superior intel (so small grups dont accidentialy stumble on bigger enemy fleets) and good coordination (well, both are rare in fleets made of random people assembled in haste in call for defence, however regular groups from pvp corps are usually much more experienced and well able to do advanced maneuvers).
And thats one more thing that adds to small gang power. You can form small gang with people You fly with every day, people You know, You can practice together, and with time, such a group gains tactical abilities that wuld never be possible for blobs :)
Naturally, blob has, and will have, more raw firepower. But again, to use it, You have to be in same grid as enemy :) --- Bookmark improvements Player owned brokers |
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