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Cassuriel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just thinking, and unsure if its ever come up, but why no TC/TE's for missiles.
Just throwing it out there - should we have one?
i.e. a module that gives bonus' to missile explosion velocity/radius/missile speed? |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
483
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
I would love it. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
5
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not range increasing, because drakes with 100km HMLs or 30km HAMs would make them stupidly powerful.
Although maybe a lowslot item that helps explosion radius would be okay, since you'd have to sacrifice speed or damage to fit it on. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
162
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
There are rigs that increase missile flight time and velocity, as well as reducing explosion radius and increasing explosion velocity.
I think they basically serve the role of TE/TC for missiles. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
483
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:There are rigs that increase missile flight time and velocity, as well as reducing explosion radius and increasing explosion velocity.
I think they basically serve the role of TE/TC for missiles. Not really because you loose the Triple Tank Rigs ships need to be competitive in PvP.
God those things are stupidly OP compared to the rest =/ |
Cassuriel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Your implying by that comment that there are not rigs for turret based weapons which do the equivalent.
Thats not the case. There are rigs which boost optimal range etc for turrets.
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Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
162
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Aamrr wrote:There are rigs that increase missile flight time and velocity, as well as reducing explosion radius and increasing explosion velocity.
I think they basically serve the role of TE/TC for missiles. Not really because you loose the Triple Tank Rigs ships need to be competitive in PvP. God those things are stupidly OP compared to the rest =/ No argument here. I've been arguing that they should have a stacking penalty for ages. |
Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 02:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:There are rigs that increase missile flight time and velocity, as well as reducing explosion radius and increasing explosion velocity.
I think they basically serve the role of TE/TC for missiles.
And that's a bad thing. Turret boats can use TE/TC or rigs to boost turret range and tracking. Missile boats are limited to rigs only for missile range and explosion velocity/radius. Missile boats require low and midslot modules that boost these values. |
Lili Lu
40
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Posted - 2011.11.24 03:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Basically they aren't in game because they aren't needed. Missiles already have way more range than turrets. In order for a Hurricane or Harbinger to approach the range of a HML Drake it sacrifices multiple mid or low slots which compete with tank or damage mods, and these ships could never sport as robust a tank as a Drake to begin with. Additionally, they need tech II ammo to do it, and while it is good, it is still a dps drop whereas that Drake is putting out it's max dps at the entire range of the missiles (less about 3km, nbd).
Pretty much the same for any other long range missile type and its comparable turret types.
If any such mods were to be introduced they would have to coincide with a flight time nerf of missiles in general. This actually is something that CCP hinted at when it was displaying concern with the Drakes predominance in numbers on the battlefields and the relative lack of tradeoff decisions about range v tank mods. Whether such is still there I rather expect CCP knows it would be in for incredible temper tantrums from the multitude of Drake addicts. Maybe the devs have become less concerned since goons are fielding welp canes accounting for its increase of numbers of late.
Basically the Drake is and always has been crack. Easy to score as a noob and makes you think you're superman in internet spaceships. No need to make decisions about damage over range, how to fly against your target, all the normal things a turret user has to consider. Any introduction of mods that you describe without a countervailing flight time nerf on heavy missiles would be making those Drakes supercrack.
This post will receive flaming, so I'll get one thing out there, yes I have a character that compromised and flies Drakes (two in fact) and have experience with cruise missiles. I know full well how easy missiles and Drakes are compared to turrets and other BCs.
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Feyrin
Contracts Inc Property Management Solutions
1
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Posted - 2011.11.24 09:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think you are looking for a module called a target painter.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
196
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Posted - 2011.11.24 10:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
1. Tracking Enhancers do what their name implies... they enhance tracking. But missiles never miss (unless you are faster than a missile).
2. Missiles in general have stupidly long ranges for their respective class and type. Torpedos can lay on some blaster-style hurt at longer ranges than blasters are capable of.
Now granted... each class of missiles does fairly crap damage against ship sizes smaller than its class ("unguided" missiles in particular)... but that's what specialty ammo is for (which I believe is getting a buff with all the other T2 ammos in the next expansion. I think. Do correct me if I'm wrong though) along with rigor and flare rigs (which, I guess, could be comparable to "tracking"... but it still isn't as it affects actual applied DPS and not range and/or ability to hit the target).
If you propose that a "Flare" or "Rigor" mod for the low-slots be made, I MIGHT be inclined to support (pilots would be forced to choose between rate of fire for quality of shots and vice versa). "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2011.11.24 10:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Smabs wrote:Not range increasing, because drakes with 100km HMLs or 30km HAMs would make them stupidly powerful.
Although maybe a lowslot item that helps explosion radius would be okay, since you'd have to sacrifice speed or damage to fit it on. yeah cause matar ac shooting at 100km is not already stupidly powerful btw missiles dont need this imho , just fix them , hml is fine maybe rockets too , but the others are nearly useless |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:1. Tracking Enhancers do what their name implies... they enhance tracking. But missiles never miss (unless you are faster than a missile).
2. Missiles in general have stupidly long ranges for their respective class and type. Torpedos can lay on some blaster-style hurt at longer ranges than blasters are capable of.
Now granted... each class of missiles does fairly crap damage against ship sizes smaller than its class ("unguided" missiles in particular)... but that's what specialty ammo is for (which I believe is getting a buff with all the other T2 ammos in the next expansion. I think. Do correct me if I'm wrong though) along with rigor and flare rigs (which, I guess, could be comparable to "tracking"... but it still isn't as it affects actual applied DPS and not range and/or ability to hit the target).
If you propose that a "Flare" or "Rigor" mod for the low-slots be made, I MIGHT be inclined to support (pilots would be forced to choose between rate of fire for quality of shots and vice versa). 1. and increase range a lot , like a lot lot +10% opt +20% falloff ,yeah if somebody as ignorant as you would say only tracking
2. loool just lool , missiles dont have any better range than guns , siege missile max range 20km 800mm ac 3+24km neutron b 4.5+13km mega pulse 15+10km I cant see where torps outrange the guns at all , maybe it is in your dreams only and those guns can increase their range a lot
what special ammo are you talking about? that navy missiles are better vs smaller targets than precisions
you are wrong you want to compare rigs vs modules total fail
oh and missile sniping we all know how usefull is that... |
Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote: 2. loool just lool , missiles dont have any better range than guns , siege missile max range 20km
Standard Raven with missile range rigs can get javelin torps out to 78km, at absolute maximum. Navy torps will go out to 51km. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
107
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Unnecessary. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arthur Frayn wrote:Naomi Knight wrote: 2. loool just lool , missiles dont have any better range than guns , siege missile max range 20km
Standard Raven with missile range rigs can get javelin torps out to 78km, at absolute maximum. Navy torps will go out to 51km. range bonused ship with rigs + long range ammo lets see what an apoc can do hmm with only 2 te/tc cheap as hell vs missile rigs 80+16km hmm I cant see where missile outrange guns at all or falloff bonused matar ships 800mm large ac with 2 te+ barrage 8+90km falloff hmm not bad at all +blasters yeah those are crap
btw you are lieing pls show me the fit as i cant get my missiles to go that far , pls no t2 rigs |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Unnecessary. yep , you cant defend your opinion , so you just hide and cover or blob :P typical matar style so go hide until liang +buddies arrive |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 12:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Smabs wrote:Not range increasing, because drakes with 100km HMLs or 30km HAMs would make them stupidly powerful.
Although maybe a lowslot item that helps explosion radius would be okay, since you'd have to sacrifice speed or damage to fit it on. yeah cause matar ac shooting at 100km is not already stupidly powerful btw missiles dont need this imho , just fix them , hml is fine maybe rockets too , but the others are nearly useless
100km AC's only happen on a Machariel. You can't hold the entire line up over a pirate ship.
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
107
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Posted - 2011.11.24 12:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote: yep , you cant defend your opinion , so you just hide and cover or blob :P typical matar style so go hide until liang +buddies arrive
HMLs already reach further than my Drake can lock.
I figured that much was obvious by anyone who's ever actually flown or fit a Drake, but OK, since you've done neither, I guess explaining it is cool too. |
Elindreal
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
missile range enhancing modules are unnecessary, those should be restricted to rigs.
missile explosion radius/velocity low slot modules would be interesting as most missile (caldari) ships have limited lows and they'd be forced to choose between ballistic control systems or their ability to hit smaller targets.
that said, the poster who claimed vanilla ravens getting huge torp range is only true because the raven is a bonus'd hull. base torp range is ridiculously small. any weapon bonus'd hull can get ridiculous range with their chosen weapon system. that's like saying cerberus' are overpowered because they can lob missiles 170km+
and the t2 ammo drawbacks that are supposedly being removed this coming patch has nothing to do with the explosion radius/velocity drawbacks of t2 missile ammo, but rather they are losing their sig radius penalty / velocity gimp
with the coming patch where t2 turret ammo is losing their tracking penalty, this will mean that t2 ammo is comparable to navy ammo, which will not be the case with missiles. CN missiles are almost always better than t2 missiles
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Azver Deroven
Pitch Black. Shadow Cartel
0
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
As an amarr turret ***** I was first inclined to say no, but on further tought I do support lowslot that would boost the damage potential versus smaller targets.
Why? Well as I fly laser setups I have the ability to engage all sized targets both in pvp and pve should they fail to keep tranversal up, missiles ofcourse do not have this and they cant lose anything in tranversal but neither can they gain if tranversal is 0. Something should allow them to engage smaller than similiar class targets, and if that something is an mod that REDUCES their overall damage (For example, replaces BCU) then I do believe it would be a fair tradeoff. Maybe it would be op but doing it with script could also work. Would surelly give them more of an edge than having to go back to station to switch mods but... Would it make PvE missile fits more op? I dont know. Never flown one (Ok, I give. I've flown a drake in lvl 3's when I worked a new faction up) properly so maybe some feedback from their point of view if someone's able to stay neutral about it?
And yeah, this is just what I tought while reading. Its not an actual presentation of my mindset, just something I came to think. DISCLAIMER:My views do not represent those of my alliance, my corporation or myself. Yes, I can even confuse myself from time to time. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
113
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:missile range enhancing modules are unnecessary, those should be restricted to rigs.
missile explosion radius/velocity low slot modules would be interesting as most missile (caldari) ships have limited lows and they'd be forced to choose between ballistic control systems or their ability to hit smaller targets.
Thing is, the Caldari missile boats without a range bonus tend to have plenty of mids for webs/TPs, which act exactly as the missile TE you are describing, while suffering from a lack of lows. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
216
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Elindreal wrote:missile range enhancing modules are unnecessary, those should be restricted to rigs.
missile explosion radius/velocity low slot modules would be interesting as most missile (caldari) ships have limited lows and they'd be forced to choose between ballistic control systems or their ability to hit smaller targets. Thing is, the Caldari missile boats without a range bonus tend to have plenty of mids for webs/TPs, which act exactly as the missile TE you are describing, while suffering from a lack of lows.
There are plenty of Caldari boats with more than 4 lows. There's more to Caldari than the drake. Incidentally, the fact that those boats are jokes in pvp is partially due to their extra lows going to waste. One thing that no shield tanked pvp fits ever suffer from is lack of lows. TPs stack with percentage based sig bloom from other sources, such as mwd and extender rigs. There's a reason why few ppl bother to use them in pvp. This, coupled with having to sacrifice valuable mids to tp at the expense of tank and tackle/ewar. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
356
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Smabs wrote:Not range increasing, because drakes with 100km HMLs or 30km HAMs would make them stupidly powerful.
Although maybe a lowslot item that helps explosion radius would be okay, since you'd have to sacrifice speed or damage to fit it on. I don't see the problem. To be able to fit them you also sacrifice BCUs - so DPS.
Basically it's a bit like ammo; more range for less damage. That's not an unusual choice for turrets, to have the same option for missiles isn't something I'd call overpowered. With TEs and TCs you can get even bigger range with turret boats than with missile ships.
A little extra versatility can't be bad. |
Cassuriel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.24 21:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
4 factors affect Gunnery & chance to hit
Optimal Range - Tracking computers & Tracking Enhancer modules boost this Falloff Range - Tracking Enhancers boost this Tracking speed - Tracking computers & Tracking Enhancer modules boost this Signature size - boosted by Target Painters
Missiles also have 4 attirbutes, although these differ from gunnery. Flight Duration - No Modules Flight Speed - No Modules Target Speed - No Modules Signature Size - boosted by Target Painters.
Sig size also seems to play a much more important factor for missiles than it does Gunnery (shooting capital guns at a stationary/heavily webbed cruiser anyone?)
All weapon systems have T2 ammo, All weapon systems have rigs, all weapon systems have ships which give them bonuses...
What the missile weapon system is clearly missing is modules to enhance its attributes in 3 of the 4 fundemental areas.
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
113
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Posted - 2011.11.24 21:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:There are plenty of Caldari boats with more than 4 lows. There's more to Caldari than the drake. Incidentally, the fact that those boats are jokes in pvp is partially due to their extra lows going to waste.
There are, but they tend to have either range bonuses (Raven, Caracal Navy, Tengu) or a bonus to hit smaller targets (Nighthawk).
Cassuriel wrote: Missiles also have 4 attirbutes, although these differ from gunnery. Flight Duration - No Modules Flight Speed - No Modules Target Speed - No Modules Signature Size - boosted by Target Painters.
Stasis Webifier.
I feel missiles being functionally different from turrets in yet another way isn't a horrible, unbalanced thing. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
216
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Goose99 wrote:There are plenty of Caldari boats with more than 4 lows. There's more to Caldari than the drake. Incidentally, the fact that those boats are jokes in pvp is partially due to their extra lows going to waste. There are, but they tend to have either range bonuses (Raven, Caracal Navy, Tengu) or a bonus to hit smaller targets (Nighthawk). Cassuriel wrote: Missiles also have 4 attirbutes, although these differ from gunnery. Flight Duration - No Modules Flight Speed - No Modules Target Speed - No Modules Signature Size - boosted by Target Painters.
Stasis Webifier. I feel missiles being functionally different from turrets in yet another way isn't a horrible, unbalanced thing.
That's like saying TC/TE shouldn't exist either because there's the tp and web. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
113
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:That's like saying TC/TE shouldn't exist either because there's the tp and web.
Missiles don't suffer from range problems and, inside of web range, have few issues dealing with smaller ships. I don't see why a module to make them even better at nuking tacklers is necessary or desirable.
Is my position clear? |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
216
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Goose99 wrote:That's like saying TC/TE shouldn't exist either because there's the tp and web. Missiles don't suffer from range problems and, inside of web range, have few issues dealing with smaller ships. I don't see why a module to make them even better at nuking tacklers is necessary or desirable. Is my position clear?
You don't seem to realize that missiles have serious problem dealing with smaller ships, at any range, which is the whole issue in this thread. Long range missiles usually have no problems with range, but ham/torps do. The same can be said of rails and blasters. You must be new to Eve to think missiles can "nuke tacklers," that only applies to guns, and only if you fly straight in. |
Cassuriel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Goose99 wrote:That's like saying TC/TE shouldn't exist either because there's the tp and web. Missiles don't suffer from range problems and, inside of web range, have few issues dealing with smaller ships. I don't see why a module to make them even better at nuking tacklers is necessary or desirable. Is my position clear?
Any pilot knows the range on his weapons before he enters combat. This applies to both guns and missiles....
Sure if i fit blasters and antimatter my range is going to be low, but thats the price you pay for obscene front end dps as opposed to dps with a flight time...
In any case, this post isn't really about the differences of missiles vs guns - i think any experienced pilot will know them.
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