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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.10 07:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
(A repost from FHC)
So... Say you have a carrier or two, and you really enjoy the DPS offered by fighters but you REALLY don't want to place the carrier on the field to be stomped on by some cheeky unexpected foe. What shall you do, what shall you do ... Well I'll tell you what you should do.
I personally 'validated' the method using a specific lvl4 mission given by a regular security division agent, but as far as i can reason by similarity, it should also work on any DEDspace pocket mission, null/lowsec PLEXes, FW PLEX (lowsec) and possibly some other instances of gate protected pockets of space I forgot.
Step 1: Take a mission from an agent. The mission has to have a gate leading to a DEDSpace pocket. The other cases of gate protected pockets should also work, but i didn't test it so ... The more the gate restricts entry by ship type - the better. So an ideal case would be something like Novice FW Plex (but it has a huge disadvantage on which I'll comment later).
Motivation: Whilst a ship is in a DEDSpace pocket, and is scanned with probes - it can't be warped to. Whoever warps to the scanned ship, will land on the gate, will have to go through and will have a hell of a time trying to pinpoint the ship with D-Scan (if it's not visible, of course) and try to reach it ... All that has to happen VERY fast, if the ship is not to be allowed to escape.
Step 2: Take the fastest ship you can muster. Something like an interceptor under links + Quafe + determination, maybe even snake set if you fly with one in lowsec.
Step 3: Warp to the mission, go through the gate. You'll land on the entry beacon. Drop a container (AFAIK they can be renamed, but i didn't bother). Bookmark the container/beacon and name it - "Beacon" (Original, I know).
Step 4: Select an arbitrary direction ( I used ... drum rolls... THE SUN because it's easy to spot) and burn. Burn like the wind. On the distance to be burned, there's still some uncertainty. The criteria is whether you can or cannot be warped at zero to, so using an alt I had to probe along the course. While you're still in the mission pocket, the alt will land on the gate. Once you exit it to normal space, the alt will land in your grid. When I started burning, i had a preliminary educated guess of 10,000 km (Ten Thousand clicks, that is) but it didn't work with the alt still landing on the gate, so I almost gave up and just by chance (not stopping the ship) discovered that at 17,000 km - my alt landed on my burning interceptor. So I worked my way back, and "discovered" that the distance from the beacon that changes where someone lands after warping at you was - 15,300 km. But there were reports of distances over 20,000 km as well so it might be dependent on the type of mission/plex.
Step 5: Once you understand the radius of the DEDSpace pocket sphere (I assume it's a sphere) the rest is fairly easy. Make a bookmark on the vector at +1to2km OUTSIDE the above mentioned spehere (mine was at ~15302km) name it "UNSAFE" Make a bookmark on the vector at -1to2km INSIDE the sphere, towards the "BEACON" (mine was at ~15298km) name it "SAFE"
Step 6: Warp your carrier(s) to the "UNSAFE" bookamark and assign the fighters to your alt/mates. Fighters can be also assigned (and recalled to) from within the sphere, but there were some spots where the fighters wouldn't warp, some sort of a "border phenomena" so it's best done from outside for certainty.
Step 7: With your carriers, approach the "SAFE" bookmark. MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE SAFE BY TRYING TO WARP another ship AT THEM. If that ship lands on the gate leading to the mission - you're pretty much covered.
Step 8: You now have the DPS assigned from a carrier(s) to a smaller ship to do what you will with it, be it gatecamping, scanning out missioning carebears in the system or just as a preparation to a brawl that might occur in the system. The carriers can't be landed on, and you'll have more than 20 minutes to move them away before anyone can burn to you from inside the pocket.
Step 9: These bookmarks will remain true for the week that the mission stays active, with the slight effect of shifting (might have been my imagination) but i had to correct a couple of km on the next day for it to work. Test it by warping to the carrier to make sure. FW Plexes, Plexes might have a disadvantage of de-spawning and exposing your carrier to a scan and warp at zero - something i didn't test.
TL;DR (a wall of text that is, after all) By using a mission (Plex/FW Plex?) in a given system, you can assign fighters from a carrier to any other ship while the carrier remain practically unreachable by being protected by a mission gate and the vast distance beyond it. The effort required is ~25 minutes per such "safe-spot" per week. You can use the ship+fighters to whatever malice you can think of, with impunity. Fit a cloak or re-warp the carriers and unless you fall asleep for over half an hour they're safe. You can also hide your off-grid bonus ship in this fashion, and probably do much more if you put your mind to it. |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.10 09:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd like the CCP game designers view on why isn't it a case of a clear exploit. I hope it's not too much to ask for. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1627
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Posted - 2014.09.10 09:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:I'd like the CCP game designers view on why isn't it a case of a clear exploit. I hope it's not too much to ask for.
You should not ask this on forums. it is against the rules to even post about in forusm if you SUSPECT it is an exploit. You shoudl use in game petition system to ask a GM.
IF this is OK nothing shall happen, if it is not you might be PUNISHED for explaining it here.
Always amazes me how peopel fail to read the rules. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.10 10:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
What makes you think I didn't? If you read carefully, I didn't ask whether it's an exploit or not, it may hint that I have official confirmation that it's not. That's precisely why I asked my question. |
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
185
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Posted - 2014.09.10 10:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:16. Posting about bugs and exploits is prohibited.
Bugs and exploits should be reported through the proper channels. Bugs should be brought to the attention of CCP by filing a bug report for our Quality Assurance department. More information on filing bug reports can be found here. Discussions about unverified issues in game can cause unnecessary panic in the community. When there is an issue that the EVE Online community needs to be aware of, it will be communicated via an official statement from CCP after thorough investigation. If you haven't already, please create an appropriate Support Ticket. I will escalate this to CT for investigation.
Thread locked. ISD Decoy Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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CCP Falcon
8833
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Posted - 2014.09.10 17:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Since this isn't regarded as a bug or exploit, this thread has been re-opened.
CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3 |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1627
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Posted - 2014.09.10 17:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:What makes you think I didn't? If you read carefully, I didn't ask whether it's an exploit or not, it may hint that I have official confirmation that it's not. That's precisely why I asked my question.
Then your post is completely irrelevant. BEcause no matter what question you ask in these forusm the answers will be exaclty the same when you ask for an OPINION. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
779
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Interesting tactic. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Since this isn't regarded as a bug or exploit, this thread has been re-opened.
Thank you for your chivalrous save of the day.
May I ask, If we're at it - Why isn't a application of a ships DPS with the ship being practically invulnerable (in a feasible time frame) considered an exploit? For the time span it takes to reach a carrier positioned in such a fashion , it's pretty much the same as having it assisting fighters from within a POS field? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:Since this isn't regarded as a bug or exploit, this thread has been re-opened.
Thank you for your chivalrous save of the day. I can only wish to the ISD team to develop the ability to first make sure if something is an exploit or not, and then close the threads on the grounds of discussing an exploit. May I ask, If we're at it - Why isn't a application of a ships DPS with the ship being practically invulnerable (in a feasible time frame) considered an exploit? For the time span it takes to reach a carrier positioned in such a fashion , it's pretty much the same as having it assisting fighters from within a POS field?
Use that tactic 2/3 times in my system n well see how safe it is. |
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Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
It'll be as safe as I'll want it to be vOv , since I'll have all the initiative. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
512
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote: Why isn't a application of a ships DPS with the ship being practically invulnerable (in a feasible time frame) considered an exploit? For the time span it takes to reach a carrier positioned in such a fashion , it's pretty much the same as having it assisting fighters from within a POS field?
Because CCP has no way to counter this without removing fighter assist mechanics.
Its not a new thing, people have been getting around DED grids and acceleration gates in this fashion for a good long time.
Dont forget to add D-scan inhibitor, people wont even know your carrier is there.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:It'll be as safe as I'll want it to be vOv , since I'll have all the initiative.
k. |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well, for instance, the radius of the DEDSpace sphere could be increased by a considerable factor. This would turn it from a mere nuisance of 20-30 minutes to a matter of hours, which, i hope you'll agree - would at least bring the effort of the setup to be more worthy of the outcome. Or they could disable fighter assistance from (and recalling to) DEDSpace.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Level IV Security wrote:It'll be as safe as I'll want it to be vOv , since I'll have all the initiative. k.
o/ glad we could talk mate. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
512
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Might work well with a vigilant's web bonus, or a daredevil - so the fighters can track.
5 fighters with a ton of drone damage amps is what, 850 dps? 1000 on a thanny?
Not bad. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.10 19:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:Well, for instance, the radius of the DEDSpace sphere could be increased by a considerable factor. This would turn it from a mere nuisance of 20-30 minutes to a matter of hours, which, i hope you'll agree - would at least bring the effort of the setup to be more worthy of the outcome. Or they could disable fighter assistance from (and recalling to) DEDSpace. Crosi Wesdo wrote:Level IV Security wrote:It'll be as safe as I'll want it to be vOv , since I'll have all the initiative. k. o/ glad we could talk mate.
DED space is extended in grids btw, the first time you did it, it could be a nuisance. Thinking this tactic makes a carrier invulnerable forever lacks imagination. |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.10 19:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
I failed to see where I said it will be invulnerable forever, please point me to that place so I can fix it.
I have a pretty good idea of the constraints on the method, but this tactic allows the carrier a certain comfort zone to operate from, which to me seems quite out of place , contrary to the usual application of DPS from capital ships. A carrier hugging a POS will be chased in it by a reasonable amount of force within minutes, by capable pilots. Same goes to a carrier operating from a POS that has not yet put up his force fiels.
This way here, combining several such locations in a system, increases this "time frame" vastly. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.10 19:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Level IV Security wrote:I failed to see where I said it will be invulnerable forever, please point me to that place so I can fix it.
I have a pretty good idea of the constraints on the method, but this tactic allows the carrier a certain comfort zone to operate from, which to me seems quite out of place , contrary to the usual application of DPS from capital ships. A carrier hugging a POS will be chased in it by a reasonable amount of force within minutes (if not A minute), by capable pilots. Same goes for a carrier operating from a POS that has not yet put up his force field.
This way here, combining several such locations in a system, increases this "time frame" vastly.
Try it. Once i am familiar with you toons, you might be surprised how little time you get. |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.10 19:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Level IV Security wrote:I failed to see where I said it will be invulnerable forever, please point me to that place so I can fix it.
I have a pretty good idea of the constraints on the method, but this tactic allows the carrier a certain comfort zone to operate from, which to me seems quite out of place , contrary to the usual application of DPS from capital ships. A carrier hugging a POS will be chased in it by a reasonable amount of force within minutes (if not A minute), by capable pilots. Same goes for a carrier operating from a POS that has not yet put up his force field.
This way here, combining several such locations in a system, increases this "time frame" vastly. Try it. Once i am familiar with you toons, you might be surprised how little time you get.
Hehe, I know this game. As I said, I'll have all the time I want, since I will be the one initiating anything. You could offer your hypothetical counters, or you can go back to waiting for me to do it o/ (HINT: I won't vOv) |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
817
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Posted - 2014.09.10 19:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
complex grids have been used for different purposes for a long time so basically nothing new here. |
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Paranoid Loyd
1791
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Posted - 2014.09.10 20:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Interesting but seems like an incredible waste of time. Two Gilas can finish the mission long before you get all that rigmarole setup. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2885
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Posted - 2014.09.10 20:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
If CCP wanted to get rid of this tactic, another way to do it would be to get rid of deadspace altogether. That is, once you have a BM in a mission area, you can warp right to it. Ditto for a ship you have scanned out. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
460
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:If CCP wanted to get rid of this tactic, another way to do it would be to get rid of deadspace altogether. That is, once you have a BM in a mission area, you can warp right to it. Ditto for a ship you have scanned out. Would render acceleration gates that limit the ship sizes (groups) which can pass it useless. DED, FW and unrated complexes, Burner mission sites and those few missions that do such.
EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
God's Apples
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
423
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Interesting but seems like an incredible waste of time. Two Gilas can finish the mission long before you get all that rigmarole setup.
He's not setting up the carrier so that he can run the damn mission... |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
472
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Interesting but seems like an incredible waste of time. Two Gilas can finish the mission long before you get all that rigmarole setup. He's not setting up the carrier so that he can run the damn mission...
Exactly, he is using this so he can assign fighters to his pvp alt sitting in a FW plex, and so his carrier can't be warped to directly using combat probes. The convoluted tactics people use to tilt the odds in their favor is astounding. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:God's Apples wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Interesting but seems like an incredible waste of time. Two Gilas can finish the mission long before you get all that rigmarole setup. He's not setting up the carrier so that he can run the damn mission... Exactly, he is using this so he can assign fighters to his pvp alt sitting in a FW plex, and so his carrier can't be warped to directly using combat probes. The convoluted tactics people use to tilt the odds in their favor is astounding.
Fighters will not follow you into DED space. |
Osa Hermosita
0
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:God's Apples wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Interesting but seems like an incredible waste of time. Two Gilas can finish the mission long before you get all that rigmarole setup. He's not setting up the carrier so that he can run the damn mission... Exactly, he is using this so he can assign fighters to his pvp alt sitting in a FW plex, and so his carrier can't be warped to directly using combat probes. The convoluted tactics people use to tilt the odds in their favor is astounding. Fighters will not follow you into DED space.
Sit in a large. :) Gate problem solved
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Paranoid Loyd
1794
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Are larges that much more plentiful now? Seem pretty unlikely you would have a mission assigned to you in the same system as a large complex spawn. I haven't been through FW systems in a while. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Level IV Security
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.11 05:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fighters will not follow you into DED space.
Depends on how you enter it ^_^ |
Luscius Uta
100
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Posted - 2014.09.11 08:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
This reminds me of an exploit where people used to enter novice plexes with Vagabonds - they would first enter it with a non-restricted ship, make a bookmark, switch to Vaga, land on the gate, align towards the bookmark and turn or their MWDs. After a long while they would land inside the plex. People hate highsec for various reasons. Mine is the terrible metallic music that plays on and on. |
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