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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
67
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Why not? The problem that frig combat is unfeasible for high-sp characters is universal to EVE and not specific to wormholes. If you want to utilize frigates, you should have a low-sp, cheap-clone alt. The only new thing is that EVE now kind of forces us to even consider using frigates, where before they were almost completely ignored in wspace.
It's not unfeasible and certainly not universal.
You are actually saying that being risk-averse is unfortunately common.
Anyway, you're more likely to get out of a bubble in a frigate than in a bigger ship. Approaching frigate PVP as something that invariably gets you killed mostly tells about lack of experience. Yes, it's faster and harder but that surely doesn't mean "high-SP players with expensive implants" should be treated somehow differently than new players.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Rek Seven wrote:It's not a good point because it has nothing to do with the issue! Getting podded out is just the price you pay i w-space. Right now i'm in an ascendancy clone which i use in a Tengu. If i use a frigate, whether it's to go on a k-space roam or to jump through a frigate wormhole, i would be exposing my pod to a greater and unnecessary level of risk. 9 times out of 10 i'll either avoid doing the thing that requires me to fly a frig or i'll log off. Sure that's my problem but it also takes away someones opportunity to kill me. Don't get me wrong, i want to fly frigates and other types of ships but i'm not going to fly a pod worth many times the price of my ship unless i know i'm going to win and survive (e.g. blob and ecm a target). If i would swap to a cheaper pod designed for frigates, i would take more chances and i'm guessing lots of people would feel the same. Not sure why i have to explain that but there it is. Rek Seven, I don't think we've always seen eye-to-eye on the forum, but that is a very good explanation of a fairly simple principle. I like it. Needless to say, I am definitely a supporter of some mechanism to allow limited clone features (the swapping without all the rest).
Good explanation? Yes, a legible description of futile attempt at rationalizing a subjective issue and demanding the game to be changed accordingly.
The game offers choices (in this case pirate implant sets) that come with consequences (risk of losing the invested ISK). He wants to remove the consequence by using the argument "because K-space can swap clones easier, wormholes should have that too".
And we all agree that "because in k-space" is non-valid argument for any changes to w-space.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonetheless, it makes little sense to engage in frig combat with a 100m+ sp character with a slave set. You don't utilize 80m of your skillpoints but still have to pay the high cost for a new clone upgrade if you get podded. And you risk your expensive slave set without getting a noticable benefit from it while fighting in your frig. So in general it would be stupid to fly a frigate with that character instead of a 20m sp character with maybe 20m in implants. Because that character will have 90% of the efficiency in that frigate with 1% of the capital at risk.
This I see as a misconception. Pirate implant sets provide significant advantages in frigate PVP, just try fighting a buffer fit frig pilot wearing HG Slaves in your bare bones clone. The margins in frigate combat are considerably smaller and having 1000 extra EHP means much more than it looks on the paper.
It's not a coincidence that many top frigate pilots opt for pie implant sets.
You're correct about not utilizing most of your SP, but that's usually the case when you got enough SP. I personally regard that as the price you pay for having the options SP provide. And honestly, clone costs are pocket money for wormholers.
And again, I think the attitude "I'll get podded if I fly a frigate" is imho counter-intuitive. I go to every fight with the sole intent of coming out alive with a few more kills to my name, ship class has no relevancy in this.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oh and what comes to the actual topic: Congrats Asyanami! It's simply great to have another rep in CSM and I wish you and corbexx best of luck in your job.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: And again, I think the attitude "I'll get podded if I fly a frigate" is imho counter-intuitive. I go to every fight with the sole intent of coming out alive with a few more kills to my name, ship class has no relevancy in this.
If anyone has a weak argument here it's you with your "we shouldn't have it because k-space has it" argument that is barely an opinion and just stems from an irrational fear that once day CCP will add fixed gates, stations and concord to w-space. The issue that i have isn't "i'll get podded if i fly a frigate" it''s "if i get podded in this 20 mil frigate, i'll lose 2 billion so i think i'll sit this one out"... If after that you can't see how allowing clone swapping would encourage more people to participate in non T3 combat, i must be talking to a moron.
No, I didn't present that argument, you said that you want clone swapping because k-space has it and only it unlocks frigate fights for you. CCP isn't bringing gates or stations to w-space afaik. Are you worried?
Free ships would encourage more players to PVP, but it doesn't mean free ships are a good idea.
Are you happier to lose your 2 bil clone if you lose a 1.5bil ship with it? Or you just don't take any fights where you could possibly die? If you don't realize that this is all about your personal tendency towards risk aversity, I must be talking to a moron.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Where did i say "i want it because k-space has it" i clearly say that i want it because it would encourage me to fly other ships and take more chances. I'm not bothered if i lose a 200 billion clone in a 10 million isk cruiser as long as the pod is designed that ship but a 1 billion isk t3 would provide extra protection against getting podded. So yes, i would be happier knowing that i did everything i could even if i ended up losing. I already acknowledged that it was down to my tendency towards risk/stupidity averse gameplay, so try and keep up. Now kindly address this: Rek Seven wrote: If i'm wrong give me three good reasons why this would be bad for wormhole space and wouldn't result in more PVP combat.
You said that it's a wormhole specific problem because rest of the universe has immediate access to clones.
You do realize that you are far more likely to get stuck in a bubble in a Proteus than in a frigate, and therefore less likely to lose your pod when flying a frigate? It's your actions as a pilot that prevent podding, not EHP around you.
I only give one reason because it's as many as you gave.
1) it only caters to the risk averse (as you already admitted that reducing your risk is the only reason you want clone swapping)
Maduin Shi wrote:'d rather kill Rek in his "free ship" and cheap clone, then not have anything to do at all. Does that make the point sufficiently?
But frankly, if he's a rich *****, I'll probably still get a decent killmail. But its choosing between having a shot at one, and not. Take it or leave it, 's what he's saying.
It's ok, there's tons of carebears who never leave hisec because they fear losing their +5s. Game goes on without them no worries. Many people make excuses to not fight and it's impossible to remove all their imaginary barriers, they will invent new ones.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Did I say that risk averse is a bad thing? You seem to feel like it is. Some people just are risk averse and it is ok. I just don't think this game specifically caters to them, or that wormholes as a sub environment in EVE should be modified to suite them better.
Wormholes already allow for varied strategies. The perceived limitations you present are only subjective results of personal choices. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Oh the sad state of this subforum. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
68
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Posted - 2014.09.12 11:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:stup idity wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: Many people make excuses to not fight and it's impossible to remove all their imaginary barriers, they will invent new ones.
Did you (killboard of 26:13) just call Rek (killboard of ~1300:50) a risk averse carebear? Seems funny, considering he has lost more than twice of what you have ever participated in killing. That's OBVIOUSLY not his main, don't you know how wh forum warfare works? Even though you are probably right you cant be sure because you dont know who his main is. its how risk averse forum worriors fight.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=783630
You really went on the killboards, didn't you. My main is permanently banned for telling a racist **** to go skill himself. |
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