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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.08.11 20:44:00 -
[91]
Originally by: tiller Edited by: tiller on 11/08/2006 20:22:12
I agree that speed is the key to mission running. Lets face it, after mission X comes up for the 20th time or mission Y repeats 3 times in a row.... I want it to end, get my rewards and do something else.
Fit best tank you can Fit 2 BCU Fit cruise as most of your targets are cruisers and frigs Don't fit stabs (you don't need to run EVER) Fit officer gear if you can afford it as you can then web browse while running even the toughest mission and taking entire lvl aggro (you'll need two screens for this lol)
Rince, repeat, enjoy (well, i'm not sure enjoy is right word)
Lub Tiller x
tiller is such a mission *****
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.11 22:24:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Bourg Re: Torpedoes vs Cruise Missiles
What is the downside to fitting 3 of each?
I'm going to be getting my first Raven soon (around 2.5mil SP) so am very interested in discussions like this.
I actually did just that during the 20 odd days it took to get T2 torps. It worked reasonably well on missions with mixed target sizes (which is most of them).
Even if there are a few more cruiser and frig sized targets, if you consider the HP involved you certainly have to kill a huge amount of battleship HP in most mission (some exceptions like pirate invasion where a 6 cruise fit indeed works best) so goin all cruise will slow you down tremendously. And with the recent addition of battlecruisers to many missions, torps became even more viable. Just don't forget to bring along at least one target painter if you use torps. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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tiller
Poisonous Monkeys
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Posted - 2006.08.12 18:53:00 -
[93]
Edited by: tiller on 12/08/2006 18:54:02
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Bourg Re: Torpedoes vs Cruise Missiles
What is the downside to fitting 3 of each?
I'm going to be getting my first Raven soon (around 2.5mil SP) so am very interested in discussions like this.
I actually did just that during the 20 odd days it took to get T2 torps. It worked reasonably well on missions with mixed target sizes (which is most of them).
Even if there are a few more cruiser and frig sized targets, if you consider the HP involved you certainly have to kill a huge amount of battleship HP in most mission (some exceptions like pirate invasion where a 6 cruise fit indeed works best) so goin all cruise will slow you down tremendously. And with the recent addition of battlecruisers to many missions, torps became even more viable. Just don't forget to bring along at least one target painter if you use torps.
I've not tried torps in missions but I don't see any reason to change to them. NPC BC fall over to cruise in 2 volleys... thats plenty quick enough for me.
edit: and cruise are far from slow... I can whizz through angel extra in about 50mins. Thats not bad (or maybe it is and I'm a mission nubtard)
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 01:56:00 -
[94]
If you actually bother to do any Extravaganzas, you ARE a n00btard :P Those got a very bad isk/time ratio and most runners I know never do them. Just find yourself more than one lvl4 agent in a general area so you can avoid these time sinks even if one agent insists on giving you one 4 times in a row.
But yeah, Extras prolly work well enough with cruise missiles too due to the sheer amount of smaller ships in them.
Guess I am such a big proponent of torps over cruise because I just avoid the lenghty missions where cruise are better. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Sylaan
Caldari Rakeriku
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:07:00 -
[95]
Extravaganzas are great money. It all depends on your skills I guess. If it takes you several hours then it might not be so effective. I personally managed to do Guristas Extravaganza in 1 hour and 40 mins, including looting and bonus stage. That's about 25 mils or so, before loot. Definitely not bad.
Also, Extravaganzas are nice missions to take a corp mate with you, since them usually take longer than others.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 11:35:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Sylaan Extravaganzas are great money. It all depends on your skills I guess. If it takes you several hours then it might not be so effective. I personally managed to do Guristas Extravaganza in 1 hour and 40 mins, including looting and bonus stage. That's about 25 mils or so, before loot. Definitely not bad.
Also, Extravaganzas are nice missions to take a corp mate with you, since them usually take longer than others.
Well I guess if you consider 25 million in 100 minutes good... There are tons of better missions out there though. Some yield twice that ratio or better. Especially if you also consider the LP as money. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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tiller
Poisonous Monkeys
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Posted - 2006.08.13 12:09:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar If you actually bother to do any Extravaganzas, you ARE a n00btard :P Those got a very bad isk/time ratio and most runners I know never do them. Just find yourself more than one lvl4 agent in a general area so you can avoid these time sinks even if one agent insists on giving you one 4 times in a row.
But yeah, Extras prolly work well enough with cruise missiles too due to the sheer amount of smaller ships in them.
Guess I am such a big proponent of torps over cruise because I just avoid the lenghty missions where cruise are better.
Well im trying to get sec status up and it gives a great boost...
I have all cruise related skills at lvl5 inc cruise spec and they work like a charm
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 13:13:00 -
[98]
Originally by: tiller Well im trying to get sec status up and it gives a great boost...
I have all cruise related skills at lvl5 inc cruise spec and they work like a charm
lol what use do YOU have for sec status? Though I agree for that purpose the constant killing that is any Extravaganza is excellent. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Barbicane
The Gun Club
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Posted - 2006.08.13 14:30:00 -
[99]
It's been a few pages since my last post but I just wanted to give my take on this:
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod The whole Torp Vs. Cruise debate
Well here's when it comes that versatility point. I went for a setup that gave me an always-ready configuration. While at the same time, do not require me to have insane fitting skills or need to use fitting mods.
Even when having Electronics 5 I have to get rid of a Nos in order to fit a full rack of T1 Sieges, if I want to keep the same tank setup. I honestly don't know how you can equip 6 T2 sieges and still have anything else to work with.
It's not that hard. Most likely you need to drop the shield bost amp if you're using one since it takes a lot of CPU, as does the siege launchers. Check the ships and modules forum. Loads of setup threads there.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Also, T2 ammo is something I wouldn't advice. It's just too damn expensive and you're supposed to be making cash outta missions, not spending it
I agree on that one.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
But of course, torpedoes will give you the edge when fighting battleships.
Problems are:
- You're not always in torp range. And Raven is indeed a slow fella.
My torps have greater range than I can target, and my target range is 90km something. If you need to target something further away you'd have the same problem with cruise missiles.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
- As I stated in my first post, most things you'll be fighting are going to be frigs and cruisers, and it's not just about the dmg, but about the speed at which you deal it as well.
Totally agree.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
- Defenders! Some folks already addressed this one too. A torp you use from medium to it's longest possible range it's a lot easier to defend than a cruise.
Defenders can sometimes be a problem, yes.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
- Emergency! Something goes wrong and you have to start using your main weapons to get rid of scramblers. Argh, and you have torps...
- Target Painter! I don't want to use this. I rather have another tanking mod! :-) Specially since some missions put out a ton of long range dps.
These two go hand in hand. If you didn't use a target painter I totally understand your position. Torps suck ass without target painting. Scramblers go down with no problem at all, as long as they are painted. Don't worry if those frigs have higher velocity than the torps - the torps still hit them (don't ask me why, but they do).
Please train these skills (it will only take a couple of days): - Target Painting L4 - Signature Focusing L3 (or L4. I have it at L3) - Long Distance Jamming L3 - Frequency Modulation L3
Then fit a T2 target painter and try again.
In return I will give cruises another try because TBH it's been a while since I tried them and my missile skills have improved in the meantime.
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Thus, their plus, being the very good dmg output vs. bs's, gets compensated and overuled by the versatility cruise missiles offer, in every case, fitting, and fighting wise, resulting in a largely better isk/hour ratio.
Cheers!
I don't agree. |
Sylaan
Caldari Rakeriku
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:39:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Sylaan Extravaganzas are great money. It all depends on your skills I guess. If it takes you several hours then it might not be so effective. I personally managed to do Guristas Extravaganza in 1 hour and 40 mins, including looting and bonus stage. That's about 25 mils or so, before loot. Definitely not bad.
Also, Extravaganzas are nice missions to take a corp mate with you, since them usually take longer than others.
Well I guess if you consider 25 million in 100 minutes good... There are tons of better missions out there though. Some yield twice that ratio or better. Especially if you also consider the LP as money.
Actually, yeah, I do consider that good.And you're talking as if you would have a list of missions and you can pick whatever you want. What do you do, you just reject the extravaganzas in the hope the next one will be something you want ?
I personally dont run multiple agents. I never reject missions, I do every single one of them as efficiently as possible, I loot every single one of them, I sell the good stuff and I refine the rest. That translates into a lot of ISK.
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.13 20:44:00 -
[101]
Torps v. cruise:
The disadvantages of torps are much higher launcher fitting reqs and pitiful damage against small ships, especially frigs.
Do target painter drones help much with the second problem?
---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." ---------------------------------------------- |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.13 21:22:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Sylaan What do you do, you just reject the extravaganzas in the hope the next one will be something you want ?
Yep, thats exactly what I do. Either in lowsec where there are a bunch of hubs with multiple L4Q20 agents in one system, or in highsec with systems that have a few l4 agents within like 2 jumps of each other. And it is kinda rare that you dont get something good when you run 3-6 agents at one time. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Torren Blaze
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Posted - 2006.08.18 23:05:00 -
[103]
Yeah, anyone know if Target Painters make that much of a difference on torps?
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.18 23:31:00 -
[104]
30% + x more damage from torps per target painter (x depending on your signature focusing skill) against cruisers and smaller ships. So yeah, it makes a huge difference. Two painters are the difference between one-volleying most cruisers and between taking like 3 volleys to kill them. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Sylaan
Caldari Rakeriku
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:02:00 -
[105]
The painter even makes a difference when you shoot at battleships.
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Elrich Zann
Minmatar Hidden Agenda
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Posted - 2006.08.19 18:41:00 -
[106]
Thanks for the tips, no matter what anyone says, there is NO ship in eve that compares to the Raven for missions. Ohmy's points are COMPLETELY correct, want to maximize iskies from missions - use the raven, period. Yes, any well piloted battleship can finish any level 4 mission, no question. But to maximize $$$/hour there is no comparison. Good points about the drone types too, I was amazed to learn people didn't know this. Oh and the only since the only npc's you want to use kinetic on are Serpentis and Guristas and their average resistance to thermal is only 10% higher than kinetic, kinetic drones are a waste too. Nice setup, when I get more $$$, I'll give it a try
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.19 21:40:00 -
[107]
Actually kinetic drones do have one thing going for them: Price (at least if you use T2 meds as you should). Vespa II = 500K, HHII = 1.5 mil. I know what I rather use and lose. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Galfrey
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Posted - 2006.08.21 14:41:00 -
[108]
Excellent thread!
Will be paying close attention to all the advice ...
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Sheph
Gallente Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.08.22 19:20:00 -
[109]
Great thread, some good reading to be had. Supernova Security Systems |
Gamesguy
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Posted - 2006.09.05 04:33:00 -
[110]
I dont understand why people keep insisting on mounting 2x invuls and 2x hardeners for the 3-4 damage type missions. Lets look at the math for a moment.
The 2nd invul will essentially give 15% resists to the 2 primary damage types, and another 25.5% to the other two damage types.
A second amp(just a standard t1 one) will give 25.5% extra boost amount. That is far superior to the 2nd invul field because it actually gives you a 10% advantage on the primary damage types, and costs no cap to boot.
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tailozom8
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Posted - 2006.09.05 12:17:00 -
[111]
Quote: "- DO NOT USE TORPEDOES. They got a huge explosion radius, and 85% of time you'll be shooting cruisers and bc's while doing lvl 4's. They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire, meaning your missions will go slower than with cruise launchers. Moreover, they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles, meaning more success for the rat's defenders (see further below). Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
I would like to argue very strongly against this. I have for a long time done lvl 4 missions, my goal is lp fast and I have tried very hard to come up with quite possibly the fastest standard setup I can for doing lvl4s.
gues what it includes, TORPS!!!
I have spec 4 for torps and cruise and at the very least lvl 4 and lvl 5 supporting skills
I run the following
6T2 siege, 1 heavy diminishing 1T2 booster, 3T2 hardeners, 1 PWNAGE painter, 1T2 cap recharger 3T2 BCS, 2T2 PDU (5 med drones)
I have also tested with same med and low config cruise missle, standard, fury, precision cruise vs standard and javelin torps.
The fastest setup for lvl 4 mission running is torps to also note a few differences
Quote: "They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire"
7.1 for t2 cruise 7.75 for t2 siege.
given the dps difference I dont think ur ROF argument against torps is a strong one
Quote: "they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles"
My standard torps will do 100km+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm) My Javelin do 7500m/s+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm)
my standards hit for 768.9 raw per torp, a fury cruise is around 605 raw(running 6 fury is like webbing yourself, you will only do 38m/s or so)
Quote: "meaning more success for the rat's defenders "
you do realise how many more defenders are required to tak out a single torp vs a cruise? I never have any problems with my torps not reaching any targets, given the amount of defenders spent killing my first 1 or 2 torps the remaingin 24 I have in flight wont really be challange to impact.
Quote: "Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
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tailozom8
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Posted - 2006.09.05 12:17:00 -
[112]
Edited by: tailozom8 on 05/09/2006 12:21:49
Quote: "- DO NOT USE TORPEDOES. They got a huge explosion radius, and 85% of time you'll be shooting cruisers and bc's while doing lvl 4's. They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire, meaning your missions will go slower than with cruise launchers. Moreover, they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles, meaning more success for the rat's defenders (see further below). Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
I would like to argue very strongly against this. I have for a long time done lvl 4 missions, my goal is lp fast and I have tried very hard to come up with quite possibly the fastest standard setup I can for doing lvl4s.
gues what it includes, TORPS!!!
I have spec 4 for torps and cruise and at the very least lvl 4 and lvl 5 supporting skills
I run the following
6T2 siege, 1 heavy diminishing 1T2 booster, 3T2 hardeners, 1 PWNAGE painter, 1T2 cap recharger 3T2 BCS, 2T2 PDU (5 med drones)
I have also tested with same med and low config cruise missle, standard, fury, precision cruise vs standard and javelin torps.
The fastest setup for lvl 4 mission running is torps to also note a few differences
Quote: "They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire"
7.1 for t2 cruise 7.75 for t2 siege.
given the dps difference I dont think ur ROF argument against torps is a strong one
Quote: "they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles"
My standard torps will do 100km+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm) My Javelin do 7500m/s+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm)
my standards hit for 768.9 raw per torp, a fury cruise is around 605 raw(running 6 fury is like webbing yourself, you will only do 38m/s or so)
Quote: "meaning more success for the rat's defenders "
you do realise how many more defenders are required to tak out a single torp vs a cruise? I never have any problems with my torps not reaching any targets, given the amount of defenders spent killing my first 1 or 2 torps the remaingin 24 I have in flight wont really be challange to impact.
Quote: "Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
The above coment is word with such spite against torps it like your putting the cherry on top of the cake to a strong argument. in my opinion actually a weak one. Do not issue an absolute comment like DO NOT USE TORPS when.
I can kill a gurista BC in 9 torps, and cruisers in 2-3 volleys standard, if they are on approach 1 1/2 volleys.
heres a challenge for you. with your cruise config raven complete lvl 4 AE in 1 hour. 1 hour is all it takes me with torps solo and thats not me trying to break records, thats me just normal.
p.s my main is Talio Zomb, didnt mean to post with this spoon of a toon
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Winter Solstice
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Posted - 2006.09.05 17:30:00 -
[113]
This is a fantastic thread - please continue to post setups, to debate efficiency, to compare tactics, and to back everything up with hard math and real experience. Thank you from all of us reading (me included) about to buy our first Raven for L4's! I'm planning on starting this weekend - and this thread has been perfect.
I'm currently running a Heavy Launcher/Passive Tanked Ferox for L3's and have just over 10M skillpoints (very good skills in shields/energy/fittings/drones/EW). The only area i'm lacking is Torps or Cruise (both at L2 currently, but I have L4 in most of the support skills like projection, bombardment, nav. prediction, etc.). So of course, i'm on the precipice of making my cruise/torp decision.
A question about T2 cruise and siege launchers: Are they really superior to the 'Arbalest' variants?
With the only three differences being cost, capacity, and PG/CPU requirements - I don't see how T2 is better at all.
Sure, you gain a tiny increase in capacity with T2 - which means a tiny increase in time between reloads - but does the hit to your PG/CPU justify it?
It would seem that more PG/CPU left over for things like painters, tank, NOS, guns, etc. would offset the tiny increase between reloads?
I'm also not in-game (work), so I don't know for sure the cost comparisons - i'm assuming T2 launchers typically cost more than the 'Arbalest' variants? Yet another plus for non-T2 if this is true.
Sure, taking cruise/torp to V is a good idea for the damage bonus - but automatically switching to T2 launchers still has me skeptical.
Thanks in advance for clearing these issues up for me!
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Ramanujan
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Posted - 2006.09.05 18:03:00 -
[114]
It seems the advantage to using T2 launchers is the T2 ammo. In the context of this discussion, javelin torps seem to offer the best of both worlds.
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Winter Solstice
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Posted - 2006.09.05 18:15:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Ramanujan It seems the advantage to using T2 launchers is the T2 ammo. In the context of this discussion, javelin torps seem to offer the best of both worlds.
Ahh, that's a big difference then. I was under the (mistaken) impression that T2 ammo could be used in T2 and T1 turrets/bays.
One argument for torps that I haven't seen yet - the explosion 'bloom' graphic is much sexier than the cruise version. It's style over stats, baby!
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MaidMarion
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Posted - 2006.09.05 20:01:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Ramanujan It seems the advantage to using T2 launchers is the T2 ammo. In the context of this discussion, javelin torps seem to offer the best of both worlds.
another advantage is the rof bonus you get from advanced missile skill (while using t2 launcher). Or if you dont use T2 missiles you can go faction launcher for insane rof.
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MaidMarion
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Posted - 2006.09.05 20:07:00 -
[117]
Originally by: tailozom8
Quote: "- DO NOT USE TORPEDOES. They got a huge explosion radius, and 85% of time you'll be shooting cruisers and bc's while doing lvl 4's. They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire, meaning your missions will go slower than with cruise launchers. Moreover, they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles, meaning more success for the rat's defenders (see further below). Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
I would like to argue very strongly against this. I have for a long time done lvl 4 missions, my goal is lp fast and I have tried very hard to come up with quite possibly the fastest standard setup I can for doing lvl4s.
gues what it includes, TORPS!!!
I have spec 4 for torps and cruise and at the very least lvl 4 and lvl 5 supporting skills
I run the following
6T2 siege, 1 heavy diminishing 1T2 booster, 3T2 hardeners, 1 PWNAGE painter, 1T2 cap recharger 3T2 BCS, 2T2 PDU (5 med drones)
I have also tested with same med and low config cruise missle, standard, fury, precision cruise vs standard and javelin torps.
The fastest setup for lvl 4 mission running is torps to also note a few differences
Quote: "They also got the worst non-capital launcher rate of fire"
7.1 for t2 cruise 7.75 for t2 siege.
given the dps difference I dont think ur ROF argument against torps is a strong one
Quote: "they have sucky range and are WAY slower than cruise missiles"
My standard torps will do 100km+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm) My Javelin do 7500m/s+(cant remneber exactly I am at work atm)
my standards hit for 768.9 raw per torp, a fury cruise is around 605 raw(running 6 fury is like webbing yourself, you will only do 38m/s or so)
Quote: "meaning more success for the rat's defenders "
you do realise how many more defenders are required to tak out a single torp vs a cruise? I never have any problems with my torps not reaching any targets, given the amount of defenders spent killing my first 1 or 2 torps the remaingin 24 I have in flight wont really be challange to impact.
Quote: "Oh, and all of this without mentioning they aren't affected by the Guided Missile Precision skill."
You mention T2 Fury and webbing yourself .. you confused .. T2 fury kills cap recharge .. T2 percision cruise have the velocity penalty. I'd highly advise against the use of furys in missions - they are better used for fleet engagements where if you are targeted you die anyway so cap isnt issue.
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Mesuno
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Posted - 2006.09.05 20:50:00 -
[118]
Couple of thoughts that have come to me reading this - i haven't been through all the pages of this though so someone might have covered it already.
- Cap regen and shield regen are maximums when the are about 30% full. What this means is that keeping your shields full at the expense of cap is inefficient as you get none of that 'free' shield regen.
- Conversely if you shields are falling fast and your cap regen is good then it may be sensible to bring your cap down to say 40% so you maximise your cap regen. Dropping below 30% on either cap or shields is a no-no though as the regen drops off to nothing pretty damn fast!
- The original poster hasnt mentioned loyalty points, and these are really a general mission running issue. However if you are comfortable running L4's in high sec consider moving to 0.1. Where we run from we routinely get 10k Lp's for the harder missions and which means a nice implant reward every 3 missions or so. This can significantly improve your isk/minute.
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Aiken
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.05 23:12:00 -
[119]
Given the subject this may not be the best place, but the content of this message has been somewhat geered towards isk/minute.
I was wandering if any readers had much insight into how a cerberus compared to a raven in terms of a) being able to complete the missions and b) isk/minute.
It seems to me that a cerb with small gist booster costs about the same as raven with xl gist booster so I would be interested to hear your thoughts about using a cerberus instead of a raven? I guess cerb setups have no place in this thread, but an isk/minute comparison might?
Thanks Aiken
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Talio ZomB
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Posted - 2006.09.06 08:38:00 -
[120]
Yeah sorry confused my self there, was at work so pulling from memory.
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