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Hiasa Kite
Republic University Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 03:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:I have nothing to say so I'm going to completely skip the part where it's incredibly easy for a good battleship tank to do way more than 127ehp and expatiate a strawman just for the sake of being argumentative.
You must have learned from WLC. The goal is not to maximize tank. The goal is to balance gank and tank, and for a Machariel, also to utilize low sig radius. In my view 27 cheap T1 fit gank catas should not be able to knock a 127k ehp out pirate faction battleship before CONCORD shows up. In the balance you're promoting, you're trying to allow a single pilot with enough money, without any support from allies to be able to single handedly defeat entire fleets of players. What happens should you get your way? What happens when 50 catalysts take down your BS? Would you be due another buff?
Simply spending lots of cash in an attempt to make the ultimate ship is never going to work in this game. In EvE, you must be prepared for the possibility that the enemy is better prepared and better coordinated than you. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5098
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 03:56:00 -
[62] - Quote
Rykuss wrote:You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit.
EDIT: Correction, if he'd been in Love Squad at the time he was ganked, the killmail would have him in Love Squad. It does not. He was not awoxed. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 03:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
Rykuss wrote:You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit.
I believe he joined after the gank, and then quit upon realizing them allowing him to join was just a scheme to kill more of his ships. There is a TMC artcile about the episode, I think. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1252
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 03:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:the multiboxer was just sitting outside the incursion site on the acc gate No-one seems to have highlighted the oddity of warping to an acceleration gate with 27 catalysts on d-scan. [witty image] - Stream |
Hiasa Kite
Republic University Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 03:59:00 -
[65] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Rykuss wrote:You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit. Oops. Busted. Actually, he joined that corp two hours AFTER he was ganked.
There's a story there I wou'd quite like to hear. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:the multiboxer was just sitting outside the incursion site on the acc gate No-one seems to have highlighted the oddity of warping to an acceleration gate with 27 catalysts on d-scan.
They were probably bouncing from site to site hoping to catch someone landing. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5098
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Rykuss wrote:You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit. Oops. Busted. Actually, he joined that corp two hours AFTER he was ganked. There's a story there I wou'd quite like to hear.
Yep, and I edited my post. I posted above before I actually checked and then realised that the killmail on zkill would have the corp he was in at the time of the loss. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Robart Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:01:00 -
[68] - Quote
a few notes for people not familiar with the guy talking about an incursion fit ship. Incursion ships are put together with the least practical buffer for the application. they use shiny mods to free up space. that he has 2 A types and a DCU on there makes it overtanked as far as mods go by incursion standards. most people run less. that he only had 127K ehp still suggests he had damage rigs. I agree with the people on the side of the catalysts here. 27 toons. either a hell of a computer, or a couple of them, if it really was a boxer. and he still didn't manage to kill you. you're complaining that a guy with enough time to run 27 accounts, for a godawful plex total didn't manage to kill your mach? FFS man, deal with it.
Welcome to new eden sir. anything expensive, people will want to take away from you. especially as an incursion runner. the only reasons the guy likely didn't do you in was overheating, and perhaps not accounting for boosts.
and to the other people: Incursions aren't missions. the meta is towards pirate battleships, with logi support. missiles are fairly strictly not allowed. about 2 groups allow them. just because you have a random fit which manages a better EHP number doesn't mean it's useful. and the guy with the rattle fit, you're talking about EHP numbers on one of the three battleship hulls in the game with a resist bonus per BS skill level, which is designed, like the rest of the scorpion hull based ships, around a stupid number of mid slots. also, passive tank in incursions is useless, as is local tank. the incoming DPS is intended to require a fleet to deal with, at least in HQs, which is about the only place you'll see a double A type mach. you use remote reps. he was warping to a beacon with an acceleration gate, rather than a normal gate or a mission gate you need to scan down. so A), he couldn't take gate as soon as he landed, he needed to get up to speed, and B), anyone else could easily warp to it.
for that matter, many communities will tell people with thick tanks to reduce it, as it isn't needed. although, if you can't replace it, don't fly it.
And yes, it is rather scatter brained. sorry. |
Rykuss
In Praise Of Bacchus
117
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Rykuss wrote:You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit. I believe he joined after the gank, and then quit upon realizing them allowing him to join was just a scheme to kill more of his ships. There is a TMC artcile about the episode, I think.
Well damn, now I have to find that article and some popcorn.
You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1252
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:They were probably bouncing from site to site hoping to catch someone landing. Bad luck I guess then that they happened to warp from outside d-scan range within a window that let them get there before you?
And that no-one saw them at any of the other gates.
And that none of the intel channels picked it up.
That sure is some mighty bad... luck. [witty image] - Stream |
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:07:00 -
[71] - Quote
Robart Baboli wrote:a few notes for people not familiar with the guy talking about an incursion fit ship. Incursion ships are put together with the least practical buffer for the application. they use shiny mods to free up space. that he has 2 A types and a DCU on there makes it overtanked as far as mods go by incursion standards. most people run less. that he only had 127K ehp still suggests he had damage rigs. I agree with the people on the side of the catalysts here. 27 toons. either a hell of a computer, or a couple of them, if it really was a boxer. and he still didn't manage to kill you. you're complaining that a guy with enough time to run 27 accounts, for a godawful plex total didn't manage to kill your mach? FFS man, deal with it.
Welcome to new eden sir. anything expensive, people will want to take away from you. especially as an incursion runner. the only reasons the guy likely didn't do you in was overheating, and perhaps not accounting for boosts.
and to the other people: Incursions aren't missions. the meta is towards pirate battleships, with logi support. missiles are fairly strictly not allowed. about 2 groups allow them. just because you have a random fit which manages a better EHP number doesn't mean it's useful. and the guy with the rattle fit, you're talking about EHP numbers on one of the three battleship hulls in the game with a resist bonus per BS skill level, which is designed, like the rest of the scorpion hull based ships, around a stupid number of mid slots. also, passive tank in incursions is useless, as is local tank. the incoming DPS is intended to require a fleet to deal with, at least in HQs, which is about the only place you'll see a double A type mach. you use remote reps. he was warping to a beacon with an acceleration gate, rather than a normal gate or a mission gate you need to scan down. so A), he couldn't take gate as soon as he landed, he needed to get up to speed, and B), anyone else could easily warp to it.
for that matter, many communities will tell people with thick tanks to reduce it, as it isn't needed. although, if you can't replace it, don't fly it.
And yes, it is rather scatter brained. sorry.
My complaint is specifically about the relative dps of cheap gank ships to the ehp of expensive battleships. Personally I don't think that cheap 2 mil catas, even 27 of them, should have enough dps to take down a 700 mil battleship before CONCORD arrives. The dps and ehp are completely arbitrarily determined by CCP, and in my view they chose to make suicide ganking too easy. If people want to use nados, I could handle that - I just don't think that ultra cheap catas should be effective gank ships.
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5099
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Robart Baboli wrote:Well written incursion fitting explanation.
So Beers would be being honest if he said,
"I know how to fit for incursions."
I would accept that. I won't accept it as an argument for "ganking is not balanced" though.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:They were probably bouncing from site to site hoping to catch someone landing. Bad luck I guess then that they happened to warp from outside d-scan range within a window that let them get there before you? And that no-one saw them at any of the other gates. And that none of the intel channels picked it up. That sure is some mighty bad... luck.
Yes, it was all part of a master plan to blow up my own ship and commit insurance fraud. Good catch. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5099
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:
My complaint is specifically about the relative dps of cheap gank ships to the ehp of expensive battleships. Personally I don't think that cheap 2 mil catas, even 27 of them, should have enough dps to take down a 700 mil battleship before CONCORD arrives. The dps and ehp are completely arbitrarily determined by CCP, and in my view they chose to make suicide ganking too easy. If people want to use nados, I could handle that - I just don't think that ultra cheap catas should be effective gank ships.
Then you're complaint is irrelevant because, as has been patiently explained to you, the value is irrelevant. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Rhiannon Marius
Marius Family Enterprises Unlimited
43
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
Destroyers are a high damage low EHP ship. They are balanced for their role. 27 working together should absolutely have a chance to take down a BS. If you want to screw with a gank fleet like that fit smart bombs and bait them. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
Here is the TMC article for those interested. http://themittani.com/news/alod-big-game-hunters |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13188
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
My baltec sense is tingling, people talking about battleships.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13188
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:14:00 -
[78] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Here is the TMC article for those interested. http://themittani.com/news/alod-big-game-huntersEdit - and Yes, this gank did involved poor fitting choices by the Golem. No DCU, only 1 invul, no LSE, and a focus on active tank which is pretty useless against nados. Obviously I would never feel comfortable flying this expensive of a ship in highsec because it is a true gank magnet.
Those are not destroyers. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:18:00 -
[79] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Here is the TMC article for those interested. http://themittani.com/news/alod-big-game-huntersEdit - and Yes, this gank did involved poor fitting choices by the Golem. No DCU, only 1 invul, no LSE, and a focus on active tank which is pretty useless against nados. Obviously I would never feel comfortable flying this expensive of a ship in highsec because it is a true gank magnet. Those are not destroyers.
Yes, that was already clarified to OP. The destroyers were involved in my gank, which has no km, since the ever resourceful Veers Belvar waved his magic wand and managed to escape at 41% structure by taking the acceleration gate, which thankfully is not prevented by warp scrambling.
Edit - also just talked to Pasta and they told me that had 18 Tornados ready to gank OP - so he was probably doomed regardless. Lesson - don't fly officer fit ships with terrifying pasta folks around. |
Dairy Product
Freerange Fedo Milks and Yogurts
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
This is some severely delayed reaction.
In those months you could've learned a balance between isk and effectiveness like the rest of the sensible community. all it takes is EFT and some noodling. |
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Prize Bot
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Gaming God wrote:In every patch note and briefing from CCP i Always see the are balancing stuff . In the past the nerfed Caldari missile launchers zo mutch that the are completly broken now . Any way CCP is balancing the frek out of this game right ?.
Why not balance the ganking system that is accepted greatly in this game ?
Shooting down a 22 bil marouder ship (That is not alloaght to fight back until it is attakt ) With 5 dystroyers ships that cost 1 mil a peace within in 5 secconds needs to be nerft .
You have to admit there is an balancing problem here or not ? Since we all have accepted ganking and since this ganking is part of this game since then it should be watch on too and being nerfed like everything else too .
I dont know what exaktly needs to be nerfed but i take any sugestions in this topic .
So a 5 mil gang shooting down a 22 bil defencles ship in 5 secs shoold be nerfed becouse its not balanced like everyting else is in this game :)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40384034/
I'm assuming this is what you are referencing. Ganking ships like yours isn't easy, our members did a lot of work to find you, and we spent like 4-5 hours sitting around waiting for you to move in a way that would allow us to put a bunch of Nado's in front of you without you being aware of what was going on. That Gank cost us 600,000,000 ISK and would have been much more expensive if we would have been required to use all of the Nado's we brought based on what we assumed your fit to be.
Also : https://zkillboard.com/kill/41201390/
This loss was entirely preventable, there is no way to lose a pod in high sec unless you are not paying attention.
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:28:00 -
[82] - Quote
The Op has the greatest name in the game, belongs to best named corp and has the best corp history. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5100
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:30:00 -
[83] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:The Op has the greatest name in the game, belongs to best named corp and has the best corp history.
Were you thinking of applying? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:39:00 -
[84] - Quote
Prize Bot wrote:Gaming God wrote:In every patch note and briefing from CCP i Always see the are balancing stuff . In the past the nerfed Caldari missile launchers zo mutch that the are completly broken now . Any way CCP is balancing the frek out of this game right ?.
Why not balance the ganking system that is accepted greatly in this game ?
Shooting down a 22 bil marouder ship (That is not alloaght to fight back until it is attakt ) With 5 dystroyers ships that cost 1 mil a peace within in 5 secconds needs to be nerft .
You have to admit there is an balancing problem here or not ? Since we all have accepted ganking and since this ganking is part of this game since then it should be watch on too and being nerfed like everything else too .
I dont know what exaktly needs to be nerfed but i take any sugestions in this topic .
So a 5 mil gang shooting down a 22 bil defencles ship in 5 secs shoold be nerfed becouse its not balanced like everyting else is in this game :) https://zkillboard.com/kill/40384034/I'm assuming this is what you are referencing. Ganking ships like yours isn't easy, our members did a lot of work to find you, and we spent like 4-5 hours sitting around waiting for you to move in a way that would allow us to put a bunch of Nado's in front of you without you being aware of what was going on. That Gank cost us 600,000,000 ISK and would have been much more expensive if we would have been required to use all of the Nado's we brought based on what we assumed your fit to be. Also : https://zkillboard.com/kill/41201390/This loss was entirely preventable, there is no way to lose a pod in high sec unless you are not paying attention.
Once you guys execute though, there is no way to stop it. 18 Nados can tear through just about any ship in highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13191
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
Correct use of a Golem. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5102
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:42:00 -
[86] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:
Once you guys execute though, there is no way to stop it. 18 Nados can tear through just about any ship in highsec.
So could 18 Wolves. What's your point? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Prize Bot
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:46:00 -
[87] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Prize Bot wrote:Gaming God wrote:In every patch note and briefing from CCP i Always see the are balancing stuff . In the past the nerfed Caldari missile launchers zo mutch that the are completly broken now . Any way CCP is balancing the frek out of this game right ?.
Why not balance the ganking system that is accepted greatly in this game ?
Shooting down a 22 bil marouder ship (That is not alloaght to fight back until it is attakt ) With 5 dystroyers ships that cost 1 mil a peace within in 5 secconds needs to be nerft .
You have to admit there is an balancing problem here or not ? Since we all have accepted ganking and since this ganking is part of this game since then it should be watch on too and being nerfed like everything else too .
I dont know what exaktly needs to be nerfed but i take any sugestions in this topic .
So a 5 mil gang shooting down a 22 bil defencles ship in 5 secs shoold be nerfed becouse its not balanced like everyting else is in this game :) https://zkillboard.com/kill/40384034/I'm assuming this is what you are referencing. Ganking ships like yours isn't easy, our members did a lot of work to find you, and we spent like 4-5 hours sitting around waiting for you to move in a way that would allow us to put a bunch of Nado's in front of you without you being aware of what was going on. That Gank cost us 600,000,000 ISK and would have been much more expensive if we would have been required to use all of the Nado's we brought based on what we assumed your fit to be. Also : https://zkillboard.com/kill/41201390/This loss was entirely preventable, there is no way to lose a pod in high sec unless you are not paying attention. Once you guys execute though, there is no way to stop it. 18 Nados can tear through just about any ship in highsec.
Well of course not, if we spend the time researching him as a target, and then form a fleet to go after him we're not going to bring a dozen pots and pans frigs and hope the DPS is enough, we had intel on his fit and brought more than enough alpha to kill him. Lacco put a lot of work into this gank. And our guys sat around for a long time waiting for our opportunity. It's not like Gaming God was some random scrub we threw 1.8 Billion ISK in Tornadoes at on a whim. He was pretty much invulnerable to us due to game mechanics most of the time we spent hunting him. He was only vulnerable to a gank for a very small amount of time, and we brought the resources to ensure he wasn't going to get away in that small timeframe. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5102
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:48:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think Prize's point is, Beers, that with excellent planning, preparation, and execution, there's no way to stop anything. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
Prize Bot wrote:
Well of course not, if we spend the time researching him as a target, and then form a fleet to go after him we're not going to bring a dozen pots and pans frigs and hope the DPS is enough, we had intel on his fit and brought more than enough alpha to kill him. Lacco put a lot of work into this gank. And our guys sat around for a long time waiting for our opportunity. It's not like Gaming God was some random scrub we threw 1.8 Billion ISK in Tornadoes at on a whim. He was pretty much invulnerable to us due to game mechanics most of the time we spent hunting him. He was only vulnerable to a gank for a very small amount of time, and we brought the resources to ensure he wasn't going to get away in that small timeframe.
Once you guys execute, your success rate for these ops is pretty close to 100%, right? It's all pretty terrifying for people in highsec :) |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5105
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 04:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Prize Bot wrote:
Well of course not, if we spend the time researching him as a target, and then form a fleet to go after him we're not going to bring a dozen pots and pans frigs and hope the DPS is enough, we had intel on his fit and brought more than enough alpha to kill him. Lacco put a lot of work into this gank. And our guys sat around for a long time waiting for our opportunity. It's not like Gaming God was some random scrub we threw 1.8 Billion ISK in Tornadoes at on a whim. He was pretty much invulnerable to us due to game mechanics most of the time we spent hunting him. He was only vulnerable to a gank for a very small amount of time, and we brought the resources to ensure he wasn't going to get away in that small timeframe.
Once you guys execute, your success rate for these ops is pretty close to 100%, right? It's all pretty terrifying for people in highsec :)
Being terrified is also no reason for a rebalance. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
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