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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.08.03 02:18:00 -
[121]
Is there a rule that if any new Minmatar ship actually looks useful, then its not allowed?
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Faith Black
Minmatar Rolls Roids
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Posted - 2006.08.03 02:44:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Faith Black on 03/08/2006 02:46:47 Don't see the difference between Maelstrom and Tempest. Both are basically artillery plattforms after the patch, both can't fit anything else useful with a shield-tank. Autopest will be inferior to other close-range ships, Autocannon-Maelstroem won't work, Typhoon imho lacks some grid to make it a killer even with max-skills.
I'd have prefered a new minmatar battleship that would be strong in 1-on-1 against other battleships with the right fitting. ( Because I don't want to skill gallente just to have a good ship for solo work.)
But we seem to get a second tempest that deals 5% more damage or so with its 8 turret slots compared to the 6 of the tempest, but except that there is no real difference in a typical fleet battles. And then it also lacks versatility, because it seems just to be a heavy slow platform to mount 8x 1400mm howitzers on it and shoot from sniper-range.
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Infinity Ziona
ISK LLC
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Posted - 2006.08.03 03:07:00 -
[123]
I think a lot of people forgot that these ships are not meant to be 'Better' then the current BS's in the game.
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
Faith Black
Minmatar Rolls Roids
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Posted - 2006.08.03 03:12:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Faith Black on 03/08/2006 03:12:38
Originally by: Infinity Ziona I think a lot of people forgot that these ships are not meant to be 'Better' then the current BS's in the game.
Actually some are and let others appear even worse. Actually the tempest already gets the beating from gallente close-range and the new tier-3 gallente ship will be even better.
The new caldari sniper tier-3 BS will be much better at sniping than any other current sniper BS.
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Apertotes
Nuevos Horizontes
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Posted - 2006.08.03 03:44:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Princess Morenta
Originally by: Apertotes
Quote: Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally.
ok, then i guess the rokh isnt supposed to tackle for herself either, since it is a large railgun boat, with optimal bonus, and should be firing far above scrambler range. so it will get 6 mid slots too, right?
Blaster *****anyone?
rokh is supposed to fit blasters as much as maelstrom autocannons
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Dao 2
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.03 03:57:00 -
[126]
on the maelstrom, even if u don't want it to be able to solo tackle for small engagements it needs a tank, and sensor boosters and/or tracking mods ;p especially if its to keep up with the caldari railer ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Dr Vitoc
Amarr True Core
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:18:00 -
[127]
Quote: Tuxford in his original Tier 3 Devblog
Quote: The name Tier 3 is mostly just a name that we use to reference these four new battleships. It doesn't mean that they are like tier 2 battleships only better. In fact tier 1 and tier 2 battleships should do something better than the tier 3.
Quote: It (The Abaddon) has the option of more damage than an Armageddon or a better tank than an Apocalypse.
My question is simple, what does the Apocalypse and/or the Armageddon do better than the proposed Abaddon? There has been no mention of this from Tuxford or any Dev.
From an Amarr specizialised pilotÆs perspective lets look at our options:
1: IÆm looking for a battleship to fly with a damage dealing set up, the aptly named ægankÆ ship. Before the introduction of the Abaddon I would choose an Armageddon, with the introduction of the Abaddon I would choose an Abaddon and fit it for dealing damage. As stated by Tuxford the Abaddon has the option of more damage than the Armageddon.
or
2: IÆm looking for a battleship to fly with good defences, the aptly named ætankÆ ship. Before the introduction of the Abaddon I would choose an Apocalypse, with the introduction of the Abaddon I would choose an Abaddon and fit it for resisting damage. As stated by Tuxford the Abaddon has the option of tanking better than an Apocalypse.
Now, given I need only have an Abaddon to gank or tank (depending on how I set up my ship) what will the tier 1 and tier 2 Amarr battleships do better than the Abaddon?
Perhaps you will say that the Apocalypse is an excellent mining ship with 8 mining lasers fitted. ThatÆs the thing that the Apocalypse will do better. However the Abaddon also fits 8 mining lasers, and with itÆs ship bonus to resists can devote more slots to capacitor recharge and/or cargo hold than the Apocalypse.
Perhaps you will say that both the Armageddon and the Apocalypse will be cheaper than the Abaddon. This is true, as it is for all other races, and yet as a tech 1 ship the Abaddon will be fully insurable and if destroyed you will most likely loose only the uninsured fittings as you do with all other tech 1 ships.
Perhaps there is something that IÆm missing, that I have overlooked, or that I have forgotten. If there is I, and many others, would love to hear the answer to this question.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:21:00 -
[128]
About the abaddon, 2 things which simply make no sense:
- tux stated that the devs want to make combat longer. Why do we then get a BS which in dps mode HAS to make combat as short as possible because it cannot sustain it's dps?
- tux stated that the tier 3 are not supposed to make the older BSs obsolete. Why do we then get a BS which depending on outfit will either be a more effective geddon or more effective apoc?
(Note, that, while the hyperion and maelstrom are assuming roles of the mega/pest. But only part of them - the mega will still be a better rail plattform and the tempest a better AC ship. And in both cases it won't touch the domi or phoon.)
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:57:00 -
[129]
A lot of people are commenting on the balance of these ships already and I'm sure they know more than me and have played more than me so I won't comment on that. What I will comment on:
Amarr and Min always seem intensley unhappy with their ships.
Their ships being "balanced" doesn't make them "fun".
The Caldari seem to be having fun. The Gallente seem to be having fun (even if their drone bs is a big turd).
So perhaps the lions share of the work should be put into fixing the problem where the other 2 races are having no fun at all.
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Kaela Arana
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.03 05:50:00 -
[130]
To the Ammar pilots:
RoF bonus is crap without a large cap or cap bonus eh? Why not use a cap recharger?
As for the Hyperion, if its supposed to be a fast blaster boat, possible useful bonuses are:
x% reduction in cap use of AB and MWD per level 5% reduction in capacitor penalty for fitting MWD per level, a la the Thorax x% increase in max velocity per level x% increase in max velocity when using AB or MWD per level x% increased RoF/damage/tracking for _blasters_ per level (pick 2) x% improvement in scan resolution per level
pick out of the list above, and keep in mind that as a blaster boat, it should only have about 40km lock range. -- Working to feed the kids. |
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.08.03 06:08:00 -
[131]
I've seen people complain that the Abaddon will make the Apoc and Armageddon obsolete. I've also seen complaints that the Abaddon will be unable to tank if it uses lasers. Perhaps what the Apoc and Arma will be good for, is using both Lasers and Tank, instead of just one or the other. |
Gorgons
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2006.08.03 06:55:00 -
[132]
Originally by: murder one Am I the only one considering these "assault rockets"? The new Drake Caldari BC w/ a full set of assault launchers inside 15km is just going to crush a Brutix with it's increased DPS, no tracking requirements, and variable damage types.
And ofcourse you already know the rof of these launchers, and you for sure already know the bonuses of the caldari tier 2 BC.
what about you cutting down on the whine before we have some real facts from tux.
----------------------------------
It says Snippy.
E-mail us with any questions. -ReverendM
OMG! what does it say... |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.03 07:05:00 -
[133]
Why not use a cap recharger? - The already used cap booster injector is nearly as good as three unpenalised rechargers
[...] cap use of AB and MWD per level - Good Nav skills reduce the cap/sec quite good already [...] capacitor penalty for fitting MWD per level, a la the Thorax - that is the current bonus [...] max velocity per level - Removed from most Minmatar ships last year for unknown reasons [...] max velocity when using AB or MWD per level - That would be the alternate bonus [...] RoF/damage/tracking for _blasters_ per level (pick 2) [...] scan resolution per level - Very hard to balance
[...] about 40km lock range. - More like 30-35km or it will be a pretty good mid-longrange ship --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Serj Darek
Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.03 08:14:00 -
[134]
4 mid slots... so its going to have 8 low then?
4 mids 4tl!
Where are you going to put sensorbooster and tracking comps? Or fill the lows with tracking enhansers and sensor whatever theyre called?
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:14:00 -
[135]
I must confess I don't see how you can begin to attempt to balance the BS designs (or call the existing designs balanced) whilst fundamental problems like the laser imbalance caused by passive tanking changes boosting usual EM resistance remain unfixed.
And the sad fact remains that the Amarr BS remain too similar. Geddon is the best of the bunch; Apoc really needs a better bonus than extra cap - resistance would be good; then Abaddon needs to be something different, and I think my sympathies are with the "make it a drone boat" argument, with a Domi-type drone bonus instead of resists (especially if the Apoc could have a resist bonus).
The Domi works - why wouldn't other races try and make something similar?
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MysticNZ
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:42:00 -
[136]
What do you have agaisn't mitari, seriously :( -=====-
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Nafri
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:58:00 -
[137]
15km base range for aussault missles?
Thats the nearly the same optimal as a 650mm Howitzer -.-
Seriusly, Raven is already too strong with its 80km torps, and now you make the same mistake with cruisers again...
with ship boni and so on 20-30 km optimal ranges with nearly blaster damage, thats what we need for balancing...
From Dusk till Dawn Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:00:00 -
[138]
To sum it up...
I have been reading all these 5 pages carefully. So far there has been NOTHING negative said about the Rohk or the Hyperion from what I can see. Basicly you have 5 pages of minmatar/amarr players being very unhappy about their tier 3 battleship.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:29:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Kaela Arana RoF bonus is crap without a large cap or cap bonus eh? Why not use a cap recharger?
A cap recharger is already a standard outfit for many arma/apoc outfits. And in either case it's not even remotely suffecient to counter the massive capneed an aba will have in dps mode.
Originally by: Kldraina Perhaps what the Apoc and Arma will be good for, is using both Lasers and Tank, instead of just one or the other.
An apoc in tankmode is not using lasers, it's using projectiles.
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Mr Bright
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:30:00 -
[140]
Actually it seems that if something is not done soon it will be to late..... I mean more and more people train caldari just because the usability in many situations is so much better. But when more train them, more fly them - and then the chance of CCP actually doing something about it gets even slimmer.
Minmatar needs a boost atm, with low DPS, crappy tanking and not even faster ships in the classes where speed matters (ceptors). It seems like nothing is going to change.. They wont have the fastest BS now the hyperion is comming, so I would say the speed advantage is effectively gone.
With that in mind, I see the mealstrom as trully an abysmal effort atm. Though I must admit, I do have hope that all our arguments and suggestions wont go unheard.
Things to consider artillery, have the shortest optimal. Falloff might be good, but no module can boost it - so a high optimal, which can be improved upon, is much better. If mealstrom is a sniper then its short range compared to especially the upcomming rohk is not good.
Just an odd thought here, dunno at all if its viable. How about 7.5% ROF and 7.5% tracking ? Would mean one could use tracking in enhancers in low to boost optimal and mid slots to tank/sensor boost. And give it a repsectable DPS
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Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:32:00 -
[141]
Quote: Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally.
So..... did you change it then? Because that tells me nothing and I really hope to see a good Minmatar ship before I die.
You say it is made for fleets where people will tackle, and you say the bonus is no good for fleets, and you say thats why a Moa got a change to its bonus. Who cares about the Moa though, we are talking about the Maelstrom here.
Million Dollar Question Does this mean you will keep it as it is, effectively useless in any role, or have you changed it? ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
gfldex
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:37:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I have been reading all these 5 pages carefully. [...] Basicly you have 5 pages of minmatar/amarr players being very unhappy about their tier 3 battleship.
I have to correct you here. We see whining about ships that are not even on the test server. Looks like the eve community invented anticipatory whining.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:51:00 -
[143]
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I have been reading all these 5 pages carefully. [...] Basicly you have 5 pages of minmatar/amarr players being very unhappy about their tier 3 battleship.
I have to correct you here. We see whining about ships that are not even on the test server. Looks like the eve community invented anticipatory whining.
I dont think the two blogs about tier 3 ships was meant to be ignored, do you? And its appearent that Tux is reading the forum and the feedback he gets from them, even though he has missed the point of the Maelstrom complaints completely.
Its scary to me that the ships are currently not even on the test server, and stats are still being mixed around, just 1 month before Kali is supposed to be released. Ok, 2 months if they are using september too, which I think they will have to.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:52:00 -
[144]
Originally by: gfldex I have to correct you here. We see whining about ships that are not even on the test server. Looks like the eve community invented anticipatory whining.
Well if the Lead Ship Balancer () tells me (Beta 6 Player Amarr only) that i will get a 8/4/8 rof/resists bonus Ship, its time to start whining, isnt it.
It looks good on paper, but
1) Geddon gets obsolete 2) Apoc gets obsolete 3) Lasers get even more obsolete 4) I finally have to train Projectiles (just sick) 5) Chances to get it changed later are 1% 6) Chances my Account ends on E*** for 10$ are not that low
Yes Amarr spec char is worth 10$ i think
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.03 11:15:00 -
[145]
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I have been reading all these 5 pages carefully. [...] Basicly you have 5 pages of minmatar/amarr players being very unhappy about their tier 3 battleship.
I have to correct you here. We see whining about ships that are not even on the test server. Looks like the eve community invented anticipatory whining.
Yep, shame i didnt whine when khanid ships were introduced. Maybe they would be useful now...
As for T2 ammo...
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:01:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I dont think the two blogs about tier 3 ships was meant to be ignored, do you? And its appearent that Tux is reading the forum and the feedback he gets from them, even though he has missed the point of the Maelstrom complaints completely.
Its scary to me that the ships are currently not even on the test server, and stats are still being mixed around, just 1 month before Kali is supposed to be released. Ok, 2 months if they are using september too, which I think they will have to.
It is in fact a step in the right direction to discuss ships and changes befor they hit TQ. Not only that but it's quite nice to let us share the joy of dreaming from new toys for our beloved game.
But nonetheless the inherent problem of games (not only eve) of still thinking in a way of pencil and paper while rolling dices. The technology how games are created has changed dramaticly but game designers still stick to simple design technics. We don't need simple techniques like levels and randomness (rolling dices is still fun though :) because we have mighy tools (the one in front of you) to get the game mechanics done smarter. Look at the differences between frigs and CRU. In contrast to any other game out there we have to rule: Bigger Ain't Better. But when it cames to ships of the same class of the same race we still have levels. And I can't see why. Look at the Maller and the Omen. The Omen got some love because nobody was using it. But it doesn't got changed in a way that ppl gave a good reason to use it. Tux told us that he can't do it because it't _only_ rank 2. This is an artifical limit he sets to himself for no reason.
At the same time the Abaddon can't made be better then the other the existing BS becaue the rank doesn't mean much.
I made some test with Apoc fittings today. Mostly to find out how tec 2 items effect cap usage. I switched my beloved tec 2 hardeners for nice named and guess what? I was able to strip a cap recharger and capa was still stable.
Amarr pilots fit loads of tec 2 gear and wonder where their capa went to. As a result the Abaddon can only suck -- with a tec 2 fitting. If the Abaddon would get good capa nobody would use the Apoc and the Geddon anymore.
The underlieing problem that the player base grow up into tec 2 lovers but the ships are still unchanged is still there and TBH I dont have the slightest idea how to solve this. But the concept that tec 1 ships should have problems to fit and run tec 2 items will not make it any better.
Another artifical (or self made) limitation are slot layouts. That's what the minmatar is hitting in the face this time. A fleet sniper dont want to shield tank because there is no point to have a good tank when you can't hit the enemy because he's out of your lock or guns range. We will see loads of Rohks on the battlefield because it will make players competitive witch can't use tec 2 guns. The slotlayout together with the usefull bonus will create a massive inballance in favor for caldari. Whatever Tux will do the Mealstrom will suck compared to the other snipers.
And here we come to limitation No. 3. Tux and the other responsible devs are doomed to create content for 4 races witch has to be different but not that much different that ppl have to skill all 4 races. (What is not possible anymore since we live in the worlds of lvl5 skills.) Any race has a special part what they are good at but only caldari can profit from that fact because they are sniper tanker with high damage potential. And that is what the basis of PVP in eve is about. Anything else may be usefull in some borderline situations but in the end of the day it doesent matter when group sizes are above 30. And we live in a blob world and that will not change anymore.
Whatever Tux will do with the new tier 3 ships will not solve the underlieing problems. EVE has evolved over time but it's basic concepts are nearly unchanged. That can only lead to frustration. Have fun Tux. :)
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Garia666
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:28:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Garia666 on 03/08/2006 12:28:52 They should pick random players and ask them to become a community test panel and to test and comment on new ship types.
Now its all to the dev`s to decide which gives me teh shiffers already..
still waiting to commonet on the abandon untill i am able to fly one.
And i wonder how many devs are actualy Amarr in game anyway..
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Herr Streng
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:15:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Garia666
They should pick random players and ask them to become a community test panel and to test and comment on new ship types.
There already is such a panel. It's called ISD.
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Sean Drake
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:44:00 -
[149]
I think Amarr should get exactly what they want after all this embarrassing ****ing and moaning.
Laser should get exp dmg added to lasers so that while laser crystals do the same dmg a portion of it is exp.
BUT then at least half the dmg bonus on all laser turrets since that is what is currently used to offset the limited dmg types at the moment.
Oh and I think your missing Tux's point about the tier 1 and 2 ships doing somthing better than the tier3. one can gank and have a little tank the other can tank with a little gank the abbadon can tank or gank.
Please change your signature to match the 400x120 pixel rule. - Ivan K |
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:50:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Sean Drake Oh and I think your missing Tux's point about the tier 1 and 2 ships doing somthing better than the tier3. one can gank and have a little tank the other can tank with a little gank the abbadon can tank or gank.
With Abaddon you can also tank heavily and fit a full rack of T2 1400mm projectiles, at least if any of the released stats are accurate at all. (and tbh even if those stats were 20% too high you could still tank+projectile "gank"). ________________________________________________
Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
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