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Dia'Sarbator
Barren Asteroid Research Corp
1
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Posted - 2014.10.09 21:45:33 -
[31] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.
Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...
Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.
Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons...
#1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage.
15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4148
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Posted - 2014.10.09 22:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dia'Sarbator wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.
Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...
Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.
1.) Missiles always hit targets within range.
2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs.
I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are.
As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4178
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Posted - 2014.10.09 22:20:59 -
[33] - Quote
Dia'Sarbator wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.
Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...
Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.
1.) Missiles always hit targets within range.
2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs.
I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are.
As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes.
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Agatir Solenth
Servants of the Throne Worlds
23
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Posted - 2014.10.10 00:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers.
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Agatir Solenth
Servants of the Throne Worlds
30
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Posted - 2014.10.10 00:19:18 -
[35] - Quote
I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers.
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Imuji
Swamphole Holdings Swamphole
2
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Posted - 2014.10.10 13:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Honestly,
The only thing I'd like to see changed on missiles is that the missile flight time has been halved, with the missile speed doubled. That way missiles will hit a lot quicker upon firing, but retaining the same range. Perhaps adjust the explosion radius to compensate for the speed, but that's all I think they would really need. |
Imuji
Swamphole Holdings Swamphole
5
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Posted - 2014.10.10 13:27:36 -
[37] - Quote
Honestly,
The only thing I'd like to see changed on missiles is that the missile flight time has been halved, with the missile speed doubled. That way missiles will hit a lot quicker upon firing, but retaining the same range. Perhaps adjust the explosion radius to compensate for the speed, but that's all I think they would really need. |
Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc. Outlaw Nation.
7
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Posted - 2014.11.04 14:25:17 -
[38] - Quote
Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss. no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more.
If anything with missiles that i would change. I would change reload speed to reflect that of other weapon system. I would remove FOF missile completely from the game. no one will ever use these things. they are the dumbest waste of code. and on second though defender missiles wth is it with these unless someone is firing a rocket at you no one else will fit these. I believe the damage output should be a little higher. depending.
I would like to see Citidal Torpedo do more damage. for as slow and low range that these are they deal the least amount of damage out of all 4 dreadnought classes. there is not an alliance or corporation out there that wont laugh at you if you tell them that you can only fly a Phoenix.
-Olga
So yeah like my post.
-Olga
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
420
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Posted - 2014.11.04 15:18:27 -
[39] - Quote
Jenna Olgidar wrote:Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss. no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more...
Then it seems to me that you haven't been kited lately in a ham or rocket launcher fitted ship..
And since our CSM members do not seem to care, may I ask the ISD to move this to the "Featues and Ideas" section?
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Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
549
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Posted - 2014.11.04 19:25:01 -
[40] - Quote
This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. |
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1828
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:48:12 -
[41] - Quote
Lallante wrote:This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002.
It is up there but not close to the worst.
and
No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
422
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:51:24 -
[42] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Lallante wrote:This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m
I am not here to explain EVE to everyone. Yet I explained numerous times now that this will not break EVE.
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Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
30
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Posted - 2014.11.05 12:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets.
Actually this isn't true, and is the actual problem with missiles at the moment. A heavy missile does reduced damage against a cruiser without a prop mod.
Explosion Radius should be matched to the "class standard" Signature Radius of the equivalent size to the missile.
Explosion Velocity should then be adjusted to a point where slapping an MWD on something doesn't reduce missile damage inordinately compared with gun damage. You should absolutely not be speedtanking missiles without a prop mod, at any scale of engagement.
If they then do too much damage in practice, raw numbers can be scaled down.
You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon. |
Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc. Outlaw Nation.
8
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Posted - 2014.11.05 12:10:24 -
[44] - Quote
Gaan Cathal wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets.
You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon.
Bahahaha
So yeah like my post.
-Olga
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2594
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Posted - 2014.11.05 15:03:16 -
[45] - Quote
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
169
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Posted - 2014.11.05 15:19:54 -
[46] - Quote
I think the signature, explsion velocity, fly time, and speed stats of most missiles should be review. But removing signature and explosion velocity? Hell NO!! You should learn how the mechanics work before posting that. The problem is about small targets and big missiles. imagine the effect of a torpedo on a webbed frigate without signature stats...
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4]
Erase learning skills, remap all SP.
That's all.
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Yi Hyori
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2014.11.05 15:36:57 -
[47] - Quote
Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :(
If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D
Suicide ganking in this for the win.
But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here.
Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :)
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
943
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Posted - 2014.11.05 15:44:29 -
[48] - Quote
Yi Hyori wrote:Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :(
If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D
Suicide ganking in this for the win.
But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here.
Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :)
or make javelin's worth using .. there dps is pitiful, we need missile enhancement mods .. (what happened her CCP?) but HAM's have the same range as torps .. so 50% range nerf is more likely , and then rockets would get the same.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
423
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Posted - 2014.11.05 15:45:46 -
[49] - Quote
Yi Hyori wrote:Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :(
If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D
Suicide ganking in this for the win.
But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here.
Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :)
Okay I did read that and someone told me about that a long time ago but they are now called Manticore and fire bombs and torpedos.
And to clear things up a little, I asked for torpedos to get a range increase.
I did not ask for rockets or hams to be range increased.
I also did not ask for missle damage to be increased, since all missile volleys are "in line" with other turret based weapons.
Sidenote again:
The range were all turrets to zero damage is optimal + 2x falloff and the fitting screen shows optimal + falloff. At this range all turrets do 50% damage, not zero.
But if you would pay more attention to what free of charge education I give to you all over the place, you would already know that.
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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
839
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim.
Son, you should be very, very careful what you claim.
elitatwo wrote:I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be.
Your experience is for naught. Orthrus, Barghest, Phoenix & Leviathan will become utterly overpowered. The former 2 because pretty much nothing will be able to outrun their weapons fire and they will be applying 100% damage on everything. That, frankly, is insane. Completely mental.
The latter are arguably worse. Capital ships able to apply 100% dps to EVERYTHING. Let that sink in a minute. I know what you'll say: "but they're slow and can be outflown". Yes, by some ships but not most used in fleet fights which is where these cap ships would be used. This will bring back the solo capital killing fleets of subcaps which is completely against the direction the game is taking and against what most of the players want.
You've clearly not thought this through and are utterly blinded by personal bias. I understand you're incapable of accepting or agreeing with that statement. It's part of the personality trait of those blinded by selfish wants. It's just lucky for the rest of us that neither the player base or CCP are dumb enough to fall for it. |
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
423
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:19:27 -
[51] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:elitatwo wrote:Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim.
Son, you should be very, very careful what you claim. [quote=elitatwo]I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be.
Thank you for trolling..
I was being accused of being stupid and sold of on some character bizzare of sorts.
I was told once that my social skills are somewhat lacking but high intelligence comes at a price.
And to your limited view of raging Phoenixes killing sprees, just remove the ability from Dreads and Titans to target lock subcapitals.
Crisis averted, problem solved.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
683
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:27:51 -
[52] - Quote
OP, I agree with you that missiles could use some love in multiple regards (both internal balance and balance relative to turrets), but what you are proposing is simply too much. If you feel that missiles aren't applying sufficient damage, why not propose buffing their damage application stats instead of changing the underlying mechanics behind how missile damage is calculated?
Do you remember the days of perfect application cruise missile Kestrels that would one-volley other frigates? CCP went out of their way to rectify that situation by changing missile mechanics, and what you're proposing would undo much of that rectification.
I understand the notion that turrets and missiles should be different and fully support that notion. But granting one of the two full damage application would fundamentally alter both the balance of turrets and missiles and the balance of different-sized ships.
-1
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
35
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:31:54 -
[53] - Quote
i lack the technical expertise to provide such a thing,
what i would like to see, and im sure it would provide quite a bit of info, a full set of spread sheets compareing ALL weapons systems vs a nice wide selection of targets, small thru large and slow thru fast to include target painters on target as well.....
then we can all stop debateing this topic (which appears to come up once every couple of weeks or so) and get down to proper discussion of what needs fixing and how it could be fixed. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
839
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:33:26 -
[54] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Thank you for trolling.. .... says the troll...
elitatwo wrote:I was told once that my social skills are somewhat lacking but high intelligence comes at a price. Lack of social skills doesn't automatically mean you're intelligent. In fact, more people with bad social skills also have low IQ than high IQ. Considering you seem to be incapable of understanding all the reasons people have given you as to why your idea sucks great big donkey ********* I'd say you fit in the unfortunate camp of those with low social skills and IQ. If that isn't the case....well, you're obviously a troll, eh?
elitatwo wrote:And to your limited view of raging Phoenixes killing sprees, just remove the ability from Dreads and Titans to target lock subcapitals. And yet you're still completely ignoring the balance implications across the sub cap class.
So, what are you? A smart troll or a dumbass? |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
69
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Posted - 2014.11.05 16:40:59 -
[55] - Quote
Gaan Cathal wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets.
Actually this isn't true, and is the actual problem with missiles at the moment. A heavy missile does reduced damage against a cruiser without a prop mod. Explosion Radius should be matched to the "class standard" Signature Radius of the equivalent size to the missile. Explosion Velocity should then be adjusted to a point where slapping an MWD on something doesn't reduce missile damage inordinately compared with gun damage. You should absolutely not be speedtanking missiles without a prop mod, at any scale of engagement. If they then do too much damage in practice, raw numbers can be scaled down. You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q83Qr8iqfg
Actually they can hit. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
212
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Posted - 2014.11.05 17:04:28 -
[56] - Quote
Once again. Missile should apply full damage to size appropriate hulls without fittings. Medium missiles should not apply perfectly to frigates, but should apply well to destroyers, and perfectly to unfit cruisers before skills or links.
Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense
- ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed.
- They are still relative velocity and position agnostic, which means substantially better application outside tackle range of most missiles
- It should be possible to create some damage mitigation without prop mod by speed fitting unusually fast hulls, like the slasher
- It should be possible to create some mitigation through running a fairly low signature ship without shield rigs or shield extenders
- Missiles should apply excellently to things with moderate tackle applied.
- Missiles should apply decently to painted ships of one to two categories smaller, but large missiles should still struggle to hit destroyers and frigates even if they are painted.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
457
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Posted - 2014.11.05 17:08:50 -
[57] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Lallante wrote:This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m
Would you at least get them to take a long, hard look at heavy missiles. The weapon system so bad medium projectile users actually think they have it the worst because they forget heavy missiles even exist.
So bad that they dont even do full damage vs a cruiser doing a whopping 194ms @165 sig, when they have an explosion radius of 105!!!
Please....? |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
212
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Posted - 2014.11.05 17:13:57 -
[58] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Lallante wrote:This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m Would you at least get them to take a long, hard look at heavy missiles. The weapon system so bad medium projectile users actually think they have it the worst because they forget heavy missiles even exist. So bad that they dont even do full damage vs a cruiser doing a whopping 194ms @165 sig, when they have an explosion radius of 105!!! Please....? Unless I've gone off my rocker, Mike has said he was taking the problems with heavy missiles to CCP.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
457
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Posted - 2014.11.05 17:17:16 -
[59] - Quote
He may have, I won't have seen all his posts, but adding weight to the requests never hurts |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3060
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Posted - 2014.11.05 17:21:26 -
[60] - Quote
The missile changes were brought in for a reason other than BoB crying about them. One needs only to look at the reasoning behind those changes all that time ago.
Do I think missiles are in a good place? I do not. I agree with James - A missile should be able to apply 100% of its damage to a stationary (or slow-moving), unfitted hull of the same size before skills and links come into the picture. Lights/Rockets vs Frigs, Heavy/HAMs vs Cruisers, Cruises/Torps vs Battleships, Citadels vs Capitals.
Do I think OP's changes are a good idea? Well... not particularly. |
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