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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Gfy Trextron
Soul Takers
3
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Posted - 2014.09.20 03:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
While I was not on for this, it has come to my attention one of our corp members has been perma banned. With CCP flip flopping over everything I would like an opinion from the elected CSM members. THIS IS NOT ABOUT CYNO BUMPING.
The simple question is, Is this titan fair game to bump? http://clip2net.com/s/iTZKyX
The nose is clearly out of the pos and doing 0ms.
It was then bumped (by the part out of the shields) out with tornados and killed.
CCP has since returned the titan and permabanned one of our pilots.
If there is a rule about ships out of shields, I would like to see it. If CCP's logs show something (for the first time ever) outside of my understanding of the events, I would like the CSM to be notified of what they show and posted here.
This way we all have a better understanding of what the CCP rules are (for today) on this issue.
Gfy "goofy" Soul Takers CEO
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2835
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Posted - 2014.09.20 03:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so). eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
itiniti
TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory.
3
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Posted - 2014.09.20 09:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
The rules have been notoriously unclear regarding this, with most members believing exposed titans being fair game. I have seen several players requesting CCP to make an additional post to clear the situation out, but I have not seen any official responses. To get permabanned in this manner, under these circumstances, must be an error, and I hope the situation can be resolved happily. The life tree. The death tree. The moon tree. The sun tree. |
Zion Maldor
Soul Takers
11
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Posted - 2014.09.20 15:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
I believe it is unfortunate that CCP take the approach of Perma-Ban and ask questions after. The format of "you are perma-banned unless you would like to respond to us" seems silly. It's as if every engagement must be fraps'd in case you have to go back and prove you weren't breaking today's rule. Suddenly we are like the police and have to video record everything? Silly. There needs to be a better process.
- Zion |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
88
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Posted - 2014.09.20 17:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so).
The part bumped wasn't inside the forcefield and was able to be interacted with, multiple titans have been killed by this method due to going too far out of the shield and being bumped further, this is completely different to what you're referring to where titans were being bumped while fully inside
A perma ban for this and the reimbursement of a titan lost due to the pilots mistake is crazy.
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Tirelion
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
22
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Posted - 2014.09.20 19:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
This should, in no way, be seen as an "exploit" bump. It is tragic that, an irresponsible titan pilot, who had obviously left himself vulnerable, should be reimbursed and that a player should be permabanned for what should have been a legal bump using a Tornado. CCP has, at this point, completely removed any element of risk to owning a "POS titan", which is counter to the spirit of the game as we know it. If this kill was not a "legal" kill, then EVERYONE must know that they cannot, EVER, try and touch a titan in a pos in any way that would lead to it's destruction (unless it is an Awox apparently). Even if the Titan (or any ship for that matter) is sticking out of the shields. This along with the new change to cynoing on a tower will make having a titan in lowsec absolutely risk free. That's really just what we need (#sarcasm). |
Marsha Mallow
1535
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Posted - 2014.09.20 22:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
The playerbase have been roaring over the POS bumping issue as a potential exploit for weeks with no response from CCP.
For some reason you've now decided to address it, badly.
Instead of acknowledging that there was an issue - and that ignoring it was an error - you've chosen to perma-ban someone who was likely acting in good faith based on current mechanics. If you are going to mix this kill in with the other (two?) TitanPosBumped kills when it is clearly not in the same bracket, I'd like to see the list of other people perma-banned.
You don't have to accept eyewitness accounts, or 3rd party vids, but you could engage a shred of common sense and a bit of decency when dealing with these issues. Seriously, this is a grossly unfair punishment directed at the wrong individual(s).
Please stop retrospectively permabanning people for flawed gameplay mechanics which are strenuously reported - then ignored. DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! |
Sly Ship
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
0
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Posted - 2014.09.21 00:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
I would love to hear from the developers how anyone would have know that bumping a ship sitting outside of a POS would be considered an exploit. I fully expect CCP to make this right. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
14
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Posted - 2014.09.21 00:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
In regard to this particular thread Nulli seems to have taken this issue and went on a parade with this. It is a bit of an insult that they go out in public and wave around their new titan. The link to their thread . It is of course in Japanese. You will need to translate that of course. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
14
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Posted - 2014.09.21 15:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Was there any particular response from the CSM or possibly someone with CCP that would be able to assist on this matter or is this a dead thread? |
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2836
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Posted - 2014.09.21 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Bienator II wrote:bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so). The part bumped wasn't inside the forcefield and was able to be interacted with, multiple titans have been killed by this method due to going too far out of the shield and being bumped further, this is completely different to what you're referring to where titans were being bumped while fully inside A perma ban for this and the reimbursement of a titan lost due to the pilots mistake is crazy.
it all depends how CCP defines "inside the forcefield". Is it "you can not lock it" = inside? Ship center inside = inside? Everything inside = inside? I don't know.
I only posted what i think was the last official GM response on the topic. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
14
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:
it all depends how CCP defines "inside the forcefield". Is it "you can not lock it" = inside? Ship center inside = inside? Everything inside = inside? I don't know.
I only posted what i think was the last official GM response on the topic.
The problem is this information flips all the time. One GM will say someone else and another GM will say something against what the other GM just said. |
Koz Katral
Sanctuary of Shadows Honorable Third Party
56
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Do the GM's even play this game and understand how it works?
How can one pilot receive a perma ban for what has been regarded as a legitimate tactic for the longest time, when the pilots performing the actual exploit elsewhere walk away unpunished?
Pretty sloppy work from the GM team at the very least. |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
marooned.
8
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Posted - 2014.09.21 23:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
So, bumping titans which are completely inside the POS shield by means of a mass super jump to a nearby cyno is ok, but bumping one left sticking out of the shield is permabannable offense?? This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while. |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Soul Takers
206
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Posted - 2014.09.22 02:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
It doesn't fit within the spirit of the "sandbox" style of this game for a ship that has several KM sticking out of a force field to be not bumpable. If the player in question had of used some sort of hack or had even been within the forcefield like they said maybe I would feel different.
Also to permanently ban someone that has spent years training a character over a rule that is not well known or known at all is outrageous. |
raging star
Circle Of Chaos
9
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Posted - 2014.09.22 05:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gfy Trextron wrote:While I was not on for this, it has come to my attention one of our corp members has been perma banned. With CCP flip flopping over everything I would like an opinion from the elected CSM members. THIS IS NOT ABOUT CYNO BUMPING. The simple question is, Is this titan fair game to bump? http://clip2net.com/s/iTZKyXThe nose is clearly out of the pos and doing 0ms. It was then bumped (by the part out of the shields) out with tornados and killed. CCP has since returned the titan and permabanned one of our pilots. If there is a rule about ships out of shields, I would like to see it. If CCP's logs show something (for the first time ever) outside of my understanding of the events, I would like the CSM to be notified of what they show and posted here. This way we all have a better understanding of what the CCP rules are (for today) on this issue. Gfy "goofy" Soul Takers CEO After some thought (and sleep), I came up with another possibility leading to another question. Is it possible that the titan could have bounced the high velocity tornado through the pos shields after one of the bumps? How would that be read by the logs? I would then argue that a player/ship with proper permissions caused a player without to enter the POS in a circumstance out of his control. It may seem like I am reaching here but we simply do not understand why this was not a fair bump. UPDATE EDIT: The player was notified that if the ship is not lockable then it is in the POS. Can someone please show me the rule, post, etc. that states this?
If i had being flying around and seen said titan, i would have thought it was fair game. I think ccp got this one wrong and said player should have never being band for his actions. |
Maccian
Soul Takers
14
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Posted - 2014.09.22 05:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:Suspension and Ban Policy
1. EXPLOITS
An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:
a. Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it. b. A player who has been previously warned for exploiting and continues to exploit, whether using the same exploit or another. c. An account holder guilty of employing GÇ£dupingGÇ¥ exploits. Players found to have received the benefits of this exploit may also face reprimand, from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts. d. A player has engaged in activity that intentionally causes others to lose connection, suffer latency issues (lag) or to crash to desktop (CTD). e. A player renders himself invulnerable through the use of a bug. f. A player has created, distributed or advertised an illegal 3rd party program (i.e. macro or cheat program) that disrupts game mechanics, is considered unfriendly or gives an unfair advantage by misusing game features in a way for which they were not intended.
When and where was the public announcement made that this was an exploit and would result in a ban? |
Hitman 001
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
6
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Posted - 2014.09.22 09:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
i call this BS. Are the NC. guys baned for using the cyno and titans to bump the titan out? no. so what the actual f... |
Detalist
Soul Takers
0
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have now had 4 groups of people we shoot at regularly (people with a legit interest in there being one less of us) convo me to say aglon got an unfair deal- fix this CCP. |
Vulfen
Snuff Box
139
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Posted - 2014.09.22 14:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP have really over reacted on this but because this isnt a big 0.0 aliance Shadow Cartel & Soul takers are unlikely to get any luck.
I'm with them on this the titan sticking out like that is fair game to bump. If you can't safely park your titan in a Large POS then you really shouldn't be flying one in the first place.
CCP need to reinstate the account of Aglon. And provide clearer clarification on the rules. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4133
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Posted - 2014.09.22 16:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Two things I'd like to points out:
CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.
If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public! |
Kristoffon Ellecon
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
116
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Posted - 2014.09.22 16:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
It is completely ridiculous that a game that serves as a vehicle to form friendships and into which people pour years of their lives may see a player's existance wiped out without warning and at the whim of a person that is unnaccountable and his interpretation of undisclosed rules despite ample previous accepted practice to the contrary. |
Whirl
Eve Rejects Effort.
0
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
A really great article written by Evenews24, which includes detailed information and interviews from both sides of this:
http://evenews24.com/2014/09/21/nulli-titan-reimbursed-soul-taker-pilot-banned/
Even the titan pilot himself thinks the perma ban is ridiculous. Also the 130+ comments from the eve community about this issue is a clear sign that the current "exploit" notification that CCP published is seriously flawed, and far too vague and open to anyones interpretation of what "inside the forcefield means".
The sheer amount of confusion and contradictory knowledge posted by members of the community back this, as well as several recent responses from CCP to different groups/individuals that are completely contradictory to each other, all which can be found reading the article and the comments from capusleers.
The titan was re-inbursed, a pilot acted on a "rule" that is completely open to interpretation, a maneuver that has been done dozens of times before to kill super caps, with no consequence, and then gets a PERMA ban on an account he has invested years of time and money into, because CCP doesn't properly clarify rules, and just swings the ban hammer because thats what they want to do that day.
Nulli got the Titan back, now you are going to completely destroy something an individual has built over many years because of vague rule writing and inconsistent responses to the eve community. Seriously? |
Juicescro
Mont Argent
9
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yo, CCP, take de dam ban down mon! |
Surya Kruul
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.22 22:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP has to revoke the ban or deliver an explanation for this other than 'has not entered force field password'.
To me it looks like in order to bump the titan, entering the force field of the pos was not necessary. I suspect the log 'clearly' shows the titan inside the force field not considering the whole hitbox. If thats the case apologies are in order.
Even if the bump happened inside the force field, permaban is still overkill.
PS: i'm not affiliated to any of the partys involved, other than them propably being red to me. |
Tirelion
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
24
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Posted - 2014.09.22 23:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Two things I'd like to points out:
CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.
If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public! Being personally involved in this (I got the final blow on the Titan) and knowing the involved parties, I can tell you that no, there is nothing relevant that you have not been made aware of. This issue has been completely transparent on the Soul Takers/Shadow Cartel side. The GM who banned Aglon is, to put it bluntly, being lazy (not paying attention) at best, or at worst, incompetent. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4134
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Posted - 2014.09.23 00:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tirelion wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Two things I'd like to points out:
CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.
If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public! Being personally involved in this (I got the final blow on the Titan) and knowing the involved parties, I can tell you that no, there is nothing relevant that you have not been made aware of. This issue has been completely transparent on the Soul Takers/Shadow Cartel side. The GM who banned Aglon is, to put it bluntly, being lazy (not paying attention) at best, or at worst, incompetent.
I hope he can escalate the situation to a more senior GM, and find a more reasonable resolution then. |
Whirl
Eve Rejects Effort.
1
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Posted - 2014.09.23 05:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Another article about this on themittani: http://themittani.com/news/pos-cyno-bumping-now-considered-exploit
Quote:CCP appears to have backpedaled on an initial statement from Senior GM Arcade regarding a POS bumping tactic. At the time, Arcade indicated that the tactic was not considered an exploit, but CCP's attitude seems to have changed since that statement, as evidenced by the apparent reimbursement of the STFU titan lost on September 8 and the recent permaban of a pilot for bumping a Nulli titan.
With some great insight from Innominate:
Quote:The only good answer here is to state categorically that an unlockable ship is considered inside the POS. This new definition of "part of the ship was out therefore it's fair game" is not supported by any other mechanic and only works as a usable definition with the addition of new functions to support verifying the status of the ships inside the POS.
We have a pile of nullsec pilots, lead by a well known personality who began doing this knowing full well that it was in violation of public statements by CCP about POS bowling. They did so anyways, apparently intending to argue on the technicality of the victim not actually being 100% inside the POS, that unlockable was not actually the definition of "inside the pos". After the kill of Mister Vee's titan, the GMs declared that it was not an exploit.
Assuming this is what the banned pilot did(If the ban is false or for something else, then none of this applies obviously), it was done under the environment of CCP saying it's not an exploit and banning him for it is absurd. It's even worse that he faces a ban for bumping during a period when it was publicly considered "not an exploit", while the people who began this in direct contravention of CCPs public statements.
At this point, the whole thing has been so horribly mishandled by CCP that bans for anyone are only going to make things worse. The whole situation has been so poorly handled all the way up the chain that right now nobody(including CCP) seems to know where this whole thing stands. This is one of those moments where CCP needs to unban and compensate and fix their GM department.
Back and forth, no consistency, its fair game, its an exploit!! and a pilot get perma banned because there is no clear definition, and is screwed in the cross-fire.
Reverse the ban, make a statement, and save yourself from this PR disaster |
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman Southern Federation
282
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Posted - 2014.09.23 09:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Surya Kruul wrote:CCP has to revoke the ban or deliver an explanation for this other than 'has not entered force field password'.
To me it looks like in order to bump the titan, entering the force field of the pos was not necessary.
The exploit notification doesn't say anything about entering the force field, or anything of that sort. It says -
"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. "
It's UNCLEAR when exactly is a ship considered within the force-field and when it's considered outside it. Some think (and thought for years) that once a portion of the ship protrudes from the field - it's fair game to bump it outside. Heck, i'll bet a toe even CCP thought that for some time, and they policed the game accordingly. Others think that a ship is outside the field when it's lockable, and while it's not - it's a no no. That's what CCP seem to think at the moment, and they police the game accordingly.
All this mess could be easily avoided with CLEAR PHRASING OF OFFICIAL STATEMENTS, leaving no room for interpretation.
Either way, Aglon made a scapegoat is ridiculous, given the fact that Travis Musgrat seemed to walk away from his cyno-bump - it only shows the double standards at work, something that doesn't add to experience of doing business with CCP.
So, to sum it up - CLEAN UP THE OFFICIAL EXPLOIT NOTIFICATIONS and un-ban the guy. |
Surya Kruul
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.23 13:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
JIeoH Mocc wrote: The exploit notification doesn't say anything about entering the force field, or anything of that sort. It says -
"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. "
Of course you are completely right about that. I was trying to make a point. I am perfectly aware of the mechanics and also of the notifications. But to any player that isn't , the titan is clearly partially exposed. When you don't need to enter the force field in order to bump, how can this be an exploit?
The problem is not the lack of awareness of exploit notifcations, or incomplete understanding of game mechanics. Its the game client, that shows a ship, thats supposed to be inside the force field to be outside.
How can you ban someone for getting misleading information from the client?
Next they release an exploit notification, saying there is a speed limit on high sec undocks and start banning people not slowing down immediatly. well the client doesn't say anything about it, but there has been a notification somewhere on the website... ?
CCP needs to get this right. |
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