Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 13:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently, NPCs player a negligible role in PVP or other player interactions. Also, residents must be online 24/7 to defend their space. NPCs could player a valuable role in PVP during all hours, unify the worlds of PVP and NPC, and increase the stake in claiming and developing sovereign space.
The proposal is that NPCs enter PVP constellation defense in a meaningful and player-led way based on extended NPC combat work within each respective constellation. The role of the NPC shifts away from being merely "boring red crosses" to earnable player tools in PVP. Nothing would be changed about current NPC combat except that players would earn points in a system with the opposition NPC which would be used to build fleet compositions in that system's constellation. The NPC would be limited to operations within the constellation were they were organized, they would be assigned roles (like guarding a ship, a gate, a station, or any celestial object), they would not fire on players with blue standings to the player-alliance with sovereignty on each respective system or with blue standings to the player who organized them, and they would support and follow primaries of the player, the sovereign player-alliance members, and their blues (in order of priority). There could be many NPC fleets on any particular grid at a time, depending on the work done by the residents. Now for the details.
Killing Serpentis in Serpentis space would earn points with the Serpentis opposition NPC force (perhaps called Guristas). After killing 20 battleships, a player would have enough points to add an NPC, scramming frigate to his fleet. The player would go to a planetary customs office and select the ships with the capabilities of interest. The points would be allocated as they were added to an NPC fleet. The NPC fleet could then be named, assigned a role, deployed to a location within the system, and customized by swapping ships for points.
In the absence of the player on grid, the fleet would perform its role on its own. Once the player is on grid with the fleet, it automatically follows the player's primaries as long as standings rules are observed. The presence of players blue to the sovereign player-alliance enables the NPC fleet to follow a randomly chosen player who is blue to that alliance. Fleets assigned to defend a player's ship remain off-grid until the player's ship appears uncloaked in space.
Support ships perform their functions as well. Scanning ships notify local of the nearest planet where a hostile ship has been scanned in system so that players can scan them down. Sensor boosting ships boost the ship of the player who created the NPC fleet. If the player is not on grid, a random player's ship is chosen for NPC boosts. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1901
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 14:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
no thanks.
more interesting, and all round better in every way when its just players. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
68997
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 15:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Currently, NPCs player a negligible role in PVP.
If NPCs play a major role it would be PVP anymore.
One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
485
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 15:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
If the "blob" is lacking people they can you know....go on recruitment drives.
Crew needs a hand beyond that, this is also what mercs are for.
Player made content....sort of the marketing angle ccp has in mind with 0.0. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6148
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 16:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because NPC "helpers" would offer advantages (no matter how nominal) they would, in effect, become mandatory for everyone to use (because you'd be dumb not to take advantage of it).
Basically it just raises the base cost of efficiency in every aspect of the game (based on PvE grinding no less).
And Malcanis' Law also applies here too. Older, richer players would not have any problems getting the most and best NPCs to help them... while younger, poorer players would not.
As for PvP battles... oh god... a 10 vs. 10 person fight would easily turn into a 100 man brawl if everyone could bring 5 NPCs to help them. And the "solo" person who brings 5 NPCs to help him/her will STILL get nuked by the half dozen outlaws who bring their own NPCs.
And then you have balancing issues... how smart should the NPCs be... how hard should they hit... what damage type... their stats... etc. etc.
Finally... this is an MMO game. Socializing with other players should be strongly encouraged (or even mandated). Allowing players to just "hide" in their own self-imposed bubble (by hiring NPCs) does not bring "content" to the greater game and... quite often... fosters expectations that sometimes run counter to the founding principles of the game (ex. "It's a sandbox! I should be left alone and be just as effective with my NPC army as entire groups of players!"). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 21:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Because NPC "helpers" would offer advantages (no matter how nominal) they would, in effect, become mandatory for everyone to use (because you'd be dumb not to take advantage of it). Basically it just raises the base cost of efficiency in every aspect of the game (based on PvE grinding no less).
And Malcanis' Law also applies here too. Older, richer players would not have any problems getting the most and best NPCs to help them... while younger, poorer players would not.
As for PvP battles... oh god... a 10 vs. 10 person fight would easily turn into a 100 man TiDi brawl if everyone could bring 5 NPCs to help them. And the "solo" person who brings 5 NPCs to help him/her will STILL get nuked by the half dozen outlaws who bring their own NPCs.
And then you have balancing issues... how smart should the NPCs be... how hard should they hit... what damage type... their stats... etc. etc.
Overall... it just takes away from player on player interaction.
Finally... this is an MMO game. Socializing with other players should be strongly encouraged (or even mandated). Allowing players to just "hide" in their own self-imposed bubble (by hiring NPCs) does not bring "content" to the greater game and... quite often... fosters expectations that sometimes run counter to the founding principles of the game (ex. "It's a sandbox! I should be left alone and be just as effective with my NPC army as entire groups of players!"). Interesting thoughts.
NPCs would not become mandatory in PVP, because a well-fit and led player fleet easily whelps NPCs all the time. NPCs would become helpful and they would signify the player investment into securing a particular constellation. Ownership of space is a keystone of null sec and this idea simply builds on that ownership.
Not every player would be able to take advantage of it or even would want to take advantage of it. Constellation residents could take advantage of it, but foreign invaders could not due to the time required to build up the points to form the NPC fleets. Some players would not care to earn the points because they cannot stand the NPC gameplay. Those players would not want to either build NPC fleets or lead them either. When residents conduct operations in other constellations, the NPC fleets built in their home constellation would not be available to them.
I do agree that older players would be able to get more and better NPCs, but wealth would not play much of a factor. There are many ships which do not cost much but perform quite well, esp when used in the right fleet compositions.
Again, not all players would be able to form NPC fleets in a given system, so 10 v 10 may only have 10 of the players with NPCs. These NPCs could be considered no different than drones. There would be no Tidi in a 10 v 10. The NPCs would perform exactly the same as if they were encountered in any mission, belt or anomaly in a system of that sec status. In fact, if the fleet was ordered to guard a gate, they would appear no different than any normal gate spawn. Guristas NPC rebels in Serpentis space would guard a system gate just like any normal Serpentis gate spawn. They would hit just as hard as Guristas do, and their damage types would be the same as Guristas. They would be as smart as a normal gate spawn of their ship types, or if the player controlling that fleet was on grid, they would merely follow the primaries of that player (just like drones).
Not unlike drones, the NPC fleet would have no negative effect on the amount of PVP or any other kind of player interaction. If anything, NPC fleets would encourage PVP because large roaming players fleet would no longer have a hard time finding fights against residents with NPC fleet support. Socializing will still occur with NPC fleets in play and perhaps even more so as these assets are organized to work together. Players cannot hide behind NPC fleets anymore than they can hide behind their own drones or even their own ships. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6155
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 22:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
You pretty much validated my points sir and added the another one; SOV defenders do not need any more advantages than they already have. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Arden Elenduil
Scary Devil Monastery
136
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 23:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Good lords this is all kinds of terrible. As the posters before me have said, this would change nothing except for making pve, one of the most boring parts of the entire frickin' game, mining aside, mandatory. I'm sorry, but that alone would get a big fat no from me. Additionally, it would put even more strain on the servers than there already is by an enourmous factor, and it would all be for nothing because of both Malcanis' law and the fact that bigger alliances will bring more NPC's compared to small ones anyhow.
So, yeah....no |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 01:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arden Elenduil wrote:Good lords this is all kinds of terrible. As the posters before me have said, this would change nothing except for making pve, one of the most boring parts of the entire frickin' game, mining aside, mandatory. I'm sorry, but that alone would get a big fat no from me. Additionally, it would put even more strain on the servers than there already is by an enourmous factor, and it would all be for nothing because of both Malcanis' law and the fact that bigger alliances will bring more NPC's compared to small ones anyhow.
So, yeah....no It would not be mandatory at all. In fact, if you are attacking, the only way pve would help you is if you could sustain it for a long time INSIDE of the constellation that you are attacking, which is to say BEHIND ENEMY LINES. NPCs are weak especially compared to large fleets and they cannot reship, so NPC fleets would have no effect on any major push into enemy territory. So sorry, but that looks like a big fat NOT MANDATORY as I see it.
On this point about the older, more wealthy players getting the best PVE fleets, I must solidly disagree. First, any player can earn the same points if they invest a bit more time and second, older more wealthy players naturally earn a bit more ISK/hr anyway so there is nothing new about the idea of gaining rewards faster for having better skills and better ships.
As far as server strain goes, there may be a bit more server strain in the first couple of seconds as the weak PVE ships go down, but after that the servers will be just the same as before. So I don't see a big deal with server strain. We have entire capital fleets with tons of drones and servers manage well enough.
I will reiterate that my proposal is that NPC fleets are limited to the constellations in which they are formed. When attacking, no alliance will be able to bring NPCs outside of those constellations, so another big fat NO, bigger alliances will have NO advantage over smaller alliances when attacking outside their home constellations. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
487
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 06:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: I will reiterate that my proposal is that NPC fleets are limited to the constellations in which they are formed. When attacking, no alliance will be able to bring NPCs outside of those constellations. So another big fat NO, bigger alliances will have NO advantage over smaller alliances when attacking outside their home constellations because NPC fleets cannot leave their home constellations to provide any advantage whatsoever.
Correct if wrong but you said you'd get the backing to the "enemy" of the pirate race. If living in delve obviously the blood raiders are not going to have me on their x-mss card list. Now in another npc pirate race's space....I got rep with them. Sooo, I'd cash in on that rep.
this is where the blob would get the upper hand. Delve goes on road trip...and enlists the npc help of any who don't like blood raiders.
And well drones present a problem. CCP would need to set up standings for them. And well....drone space is screwed. Only time you see drones not in drone lands are in really crappy ca's. SO in theory anyone who never ran the crap drone ca's (most don't, they aren't even worth the ammo based on the few times I tried em) will have instant drone backing. |
|
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 21:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: Correct if wrong but you said you'd get the backing to the "enemy" of the pirate race. If living in delve obviously the blood raiders are not going to have me on their x-mss card list. Now in another npc pirate race's space....I got rep with them since when I did live in delve I ratted like a fiend at times so killed quite a few blood raiders in my time out there. As would the rest of alliance living there. Sooo, I'd cash in on that rep.
this is where the blob would get the upper hand. Delve goes on road trip...and enlists the npc help of any who don't like blood raiders. edit: It be a force they don't even have to work out logistics for. No bridging, no escorting a fleet gate by gate...jsut poof....they are there.
And well drones present a problem. CCP would need to set up standings for them. And well....drone space is screwed. Only time you see drones not in drone lands are in really crappy ca's. SO in theory anyone who never ran the crap drone ca's (most don't, they aren't even worth the ammo based on the few times I tried em) will have instant drone backing.
There is apparently a substantial misunderstanding of my proposal on several points.
The points would only be earned for the local insurgent enemy of the native pirates in the constellation where you are operating. The local insurgents would rally behind you because of the points you earned toward their cause. Your favor with the local pirates would not translate to standings with any group, much less toward groups outside the constellation. Your alliance can go on a road trip, but the points and NPC fleets formed in the home constellations stay in their respective constellations. The local resistance is only interested in local politics.
And for drone space, I have no idea which race would be resisting drone NPCs. Perhaps the two nearest pirate factions would be options (Guristas and Angel).
To be perfectly clear, I should reiterate that NPC fleets and points earned for building them would never leave the local constellations where they were earned\created. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 00:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
The NPC fleets would not be used casually due to the time required to build them. Casual pve use would naturally result in NPC fleet ship losses which would have to be replaced after additional time and work. Therefore NPC fleets would likely be used primarily for strategic (pvp) constellation defense. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 08:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
So what you are saying is that this is designed to bone small roaming fleets. When a couple of Inties head over to Provi to kill some Ratters suddenly they have like 1000 TPing Angle Rats shooting them. (pretty sure a few Elite frigs could mess up most PVP frigs day) |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:So what you are saying is that this is designed to bone small roaming fleets. When a couple of Inties head over to Provi to kill some Ratters suddenly they have like 1000 TPing Angle Rats shooting them. (pretty sure a few Elite frigs could mess up most PVP frigs day) Have you never warped your Inty into a pve site before and survived? Do you not know how to speed tank in an Inty? The idea that an elite pvper could be scared of pve ships is almost laughable.
In the first place, the pve fleet assigned to support a ship would not aggro you until either you or the assigned ship initiated aggression. Your 1000 target painter scenario would require you to commit hostilities. The target painting would not be applied until after a player locked a target, aggression was committed, and the NPCs targetted your ship. So there would be plenty of time for you to warp off (if that was your assessment at that time) .. or just drop your bubble (if you were a dictor, of course) and warp off, lol.
In the second place, no one knows how large your fleet is ready to jump to your cyno (for non-inty of course). The cyno would not count towards aggro. Large fleets can destroy pve ships quite easily.
So if you and your fleet aren't big enough to engage and you are in an inty, escape should be fairly easy. If you want bigger kills, then bring bigger fleets. Makes sense to me. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: NPCs would not become mandatory in PVP, because a well-fit and led player fleet easily whelps NPCs all the time.
what about a well fit and led player fleet against another well fit and led player fleet + npc to give it more strenght? if something give you a definite advantage it becomes mandatory. |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 00:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Andrew Indy wrote:So what you are saying is that this is designed to bone small roaming fleets. When a couple of Inties head over to Provi to kill some Ratters suddenly they have like 1000 TPing Angle Rats shooting them. (pretty sure a few Elite frigs could mess up most PVP frigs day) Have you never warped your Inty into a pve site before and survived? Do you not know how to speed tank in an Inty? The idea that an elite pvper could be scared of pve ships is almost laughable. In the first place, the pve fleet assigned to support a ship would not aggro you until either you or the assigned ship initiated aggression. Your 1000 target painter scenario would require you to commit hostilities. The target painting would not be applied until after a player locked a target, aggression was committed, and the NPCs targetted your ship. So there would be plenty of time for you to warp off (if that was your assessment at that time) .. or just drop your bubble (if you were a dictor, of course) and warp off, lol. In the second place, no one knows how large your fleet is ready to jump to your cyno (for non-inty of course). The cyno would not count towards aggro. Large fleets can destroy pve ships quite easily. So if you and your fleet aren't big enough to engage and you are in an inty, escape should be fairly easy. If you want bigger kills, then bring bigger fleets. Makes sense to me.
Ok well next time you are flying in an inty go int oa Anom with elite frigs nad then orbit a rock in he middle of them for a like 5 minutes and see what happens.
Sure if you have a fleet with you and you only need to hold them for a few seconds its fine, but solo killing a ship with 20k + EHP takes time and since a lot of inties have to orbit at sub 10K to apply DPS its very easy for an elite frig to web you and once webbed and pointed you are boned.
Based on your reply above you are pretty much agreeing with me, that this would no effect large gangs but would effect small ones and if the NPCs are so bad that it does not effect small gangs either then why even bother with the feature. |
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 08:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
OP's idea sounds interesting, potentially quite fun. |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 11:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Thank you, Lao.
Andrew Indy wrote:Andy Landen wrote: So if you and your fleet aren't big enough to engage and you are in an inty, escape should be fairly easy. If you want bigger kills, then bring bigger fleets. Makes sense to me.
Ok well next time you are flying in an inty go int oa Anom with elite frigs nad then orbit a rock in he middle of them for a like 5 minutes and see what happens. Sure if you have a fleet with you and you only need to hold them for a few seconds its fine, but solo killing a ship with 20k + EHP takes time and since a lot of inties have to orbit at sub 10K to apply DPS its very easy for an elite frig to web you and once webbed and pointed you are boned. Based on your reply above you are pretty much agreeing with me, that this would no effect large gangs but would effect small ones and if the NPCs are so bad that it does not effect small gangs either then why even bother with the feature. Andrew, If you are worried about getting webbed, then try to keep out of web range. Your inty should have enough speed to be able to manage that. If you are worried about not being able to kill an NPC frigate, then why consider taking on a much larger player ship? Your inty should be able to either do its work without getting killed or warp off before any real danger emerges. You even have bubble immunity, so nothing can hold you down unless you allow it.
Yes, I agree that large gangs can easily clear the grid of NPCs, but so can small gangs of as few as 4. A gang of 6 with logi support can handle any NPC fleet that I can imagine, including sleepers. So small gangs will do just fine.
Is the foundation of your objection that NPC fleets would make it hard for a small, solo interceptor to solo kill a large, solo player ship? In response, I'll re-quote the last line of my previous post:
Andy Landen wrote: So if you and your fleet aren't big enough to engage and you are in an inty, escape should be fairly easy. If you want bigger kills, then bring bigger fleets. Makes sense to me.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Andy Landen
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
505
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 22:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
The NPC fleets would integrate into the player fleets when the respective player joins a fleet. While in a player fleet, the NPC fleet (appearing as a single entry in the fleet) would follow the primaries of the designated primary caller, provide field logistics to the player fleet with its logistics ships, and boost the player fleet with its command ships, depending on the ships available in the NPC fleet. The NPC fleets should have their own squads with the fleet commander giving the NPC fleets direction with commands like: Defend the fleet, Blockade the gate at optimals, Blockade the gate at zero, or Patrol the POS/station/IHUB/etc.
The NPC fleet follows the directions of the player while the player is not in fleet, but follows the directions of the FC while the player is in fleet. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
30
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 02:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:If you are worried about getting webbed, then try to keep out of web range. Your inty should have enough speed to be able to manage that. In that example, the interceptor went in to tackle a ratter. How are you supposed to keep out of web range, if you're anchored to a target like that? |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |