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corbexx
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Posted - 2014.09.22 11:23:00 -
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As promised some numbers for C1 to C4 wormholes. I'm semi limiting info as I don't want it to turn in to a slap fight of "ooh you can earn more if you do this or its optimal to do it this way" you want to do that fine run your own tests send me the numbers.
For C1 to C3 I used a tengu with 3 faction damage mods and max skills. C4 was done with a paladin with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.
I did this on my own to get the times, potentially running in a group is better and I have done that for C1 to C4 although I've not got the go ahead to release that.
Each site was run 10 times to give a average of nano ribbons and there is 2 numbers per site. the first is teh average off all 10 sites the second I ignored the lowest and highest 2 nano ribbon drops then took a average of the middle 6 numbers (to try and remove some of the spikeiness of randon drops.
sites were ran and travel time included along with time taken to salvage (max salvager skills used).
This was a pure run sites as fast as possible done on sisi in a no effects system.
Things not taken in to account.
scanning the wormhole. Scouting. Checking static. Time taken to haul stuff out to sell.
These factors will potentially add up to lower the income alot espeically if you take in to acount alt scouts, running sites in the statics etc. So numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hvNEjGFjPPGEXeOqSS4O_Zm9BokSu0bz6DnhD5KDisk/edit?usp=sharing
Several things of note.
C1 site perimeter camp I got a crazy amount of nanos which is why the isk from that site is so high (double the other sites) I really need to rerun this site 10 times when I get time. That one site pulls C1 space up above C2 space. without that site C1 and C2 is basically same income.
I only did each site 10 times, chatting to our maths god in NoHo he thinks i should do them 100 times atleast to get a significant sample size which aint going to happen. So keep in mind my sample size is low which may affect things.
The percentage income from nano ribbons is also listed so you get a idea of how much that will affect sites.
Yes you can potentially make more but this was on my own.
I'd like to give a huge thanks to people who helped me collect this info as it really help speed things up. This combined with the testing in small groups (up to 3 people) took close to 300 hours. I was up at 4 in the morning doing the last bit of maths for C4 sites the day I left for Iceland. So it would be ready for the summit.
As said if people want to argue I'll happily listen as long as they have the proof to back it up.
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Posted - 2014.09.22 11:54:00 -
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Jezza McWaffle wrote:Interesting results, im surprised C4 income isn't that much higher than C3, the current state of C2 space looks depressing given the massive difference between it and C3 space and C1 income being higher. Did you experiment what the lowest form of ship could run each site?
The c4 to c3 isk comparison is greater if you cheery pick which sites you do. which people will almost certainly do if they are running sites in there static.
I didn't experiment with lowest ship. for a couple reasons mainly the fact that i had to have devs move me and ships around on sisi which can take awhile. So didn't want to bother them as much. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 11:58:00 -
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Moloney wrote:Thanks corbexx for the effort.
The only problem is that the data is useless.
1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market. 2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked) 3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways 4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....
Its hardly useless its just a theoretical amount a single person can make. is only so many factors i can take in to account and getting ganked is sure as hell one I can't factor in reliably.
however if you want to make a more useful one please run your stuff and let me know what figures you get i'll happily pass it all on for you. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 12:01:00 -
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Ruffio Sepico wrote:corbexx wrote:As promised some numbers for C1 to C4 wormholes. I'm semi limiting info as I don't want it to turn in to a slap fight of "ooh you can earn more if you do this or its optimal to do it this way" you want to do that fine run your own tests send me the numbers.
For C1 to C3 I used a tengu with 3 faction damage mods and max skills. C4 was done with a paladin with 3 faction damage mods and max skills. The quality of ship and level of skills differ a lot and will have a great inpact on how fast things are run as well though.
Aye most definetly. these numbers are probably on the high side a newbie in a drake with skills at 4 will probably take twice as long as a max skilled tengu with 3 facton bcu's, maybe if i get time I'll run some of these in a drake or something with no faction mods to give a comparison. But that will have to wait till after I've done the pos research and summit minutes, so wont be soon if i even get around to it. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 12:06:00 -
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Alice Johansen wrote:Considering that the number of sites in a system is limited I think it would be nice if you would add the ISK per site to that table.
Regarding accuracy: Shouldn't CCP be able to give you exact numbers for the chance of loot drops for each ship? That way you could calculate exactly how much ISK a site will return on average.
I have isk per site on the other spread sheet but its dependant alot on average nano drop. One of the reasons I did a simplified sheet for general, is that if I incude isk per site you can work out how long it took and then you get more "ooh you are running sites to fast" or "I can run sites much faster"
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Posted - 2014.09.22 12:56:00 -
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Jez Amatin wrote:Thanks for your hard work Corbexx, much appreciated.
I would like future PVE changes to consider the impact of running solo vs in groups (in lower classes). I assume most people end up running solo as it is more profitable, but this runs against the idea of promoting group play in wormholes which IMO is a key driver in encouraging corporation growth & number of ppl out in wspace (aka content). Personally, i'd like C4 (and poss C3) to have some sites that are viable to run as a group without heavily penalising your income. Obviously there needs to be a balance between solo and group play, but it currently feels like a big divide between C1-C4 (solo) and C5-C6 (group).
I totally agree here. More group activety would help alot. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:00:00 -
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Aiyshimin wrote:Confirming C3 average income is exactly as in the spreadsheet based on literally hundreds and hundreds of C3s ran.
In C4s I've reached considerably higher figures, and heard others refer to the same approx. 200mil/hr.
Tengu is probably not ideal for C1-C2s due to sleeper ship size, but In any case, these figures are definitely in the right ballpark and the most important thing to get from them is the issue with C1 and C2 space. It's not any safer to run C2s than it is to run higher class sites, PVE surely is easier but risks remain the same.
These holes should be lucrative to newcomers to w-space, but in current EVE it's difficult to even fart and not make more isk/hr.
the average income for C4 is higher with frontier barracks (which is by far the best site to do) I got 170mill/hour and with a couple people working together i've hit over 200mill/hour. But i can see experinced people getting more than me.
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:45:00 -
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Nox52 wrote:I don't suppose you have or are willing to put up the c5 and c6 site income just to put the disparity in perspective?
The numbers feel about right from my experience. The short summary is that c1 and c2 space income via sites is useless looking at just your numbers. Factor in the scanning, securing, hauling and so on and it becomes damn right worthless. Bob forbid you try to share with someone else (like a newbie might do) or get ganked, it just becomes a stupid proposition comparing alternative Hs means of income.
You're starting to look better at the C3 and C4 stage but really if you consider the work you have to do for them and the real risk of getting ganked it doesn't look too flash hot now does it? What's l4 income? 100 mil an hour or so?
And you wonder why there aren't more people in low class whs...
I'd like to include C5 and C6 sites with cap escaltions its pretty easy for me to get info very easily. but again it varies depending on how you do stuff (or if you share) 5 characters multi boxing will be insane isk. while 10 people in a site will be good isk but not insane isk. without the cap escalation it drops off alot. will see if i can get numbers.
I have some NoHo numbers but need to get permission to publish them.
and I have no idea on lvl 4 income but its way way lower than highsec incursions thats for sure. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:48:00 -
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Ruffio Sepico wrote:corbexx wrote:Jez Amatin wrote:Thanks for your hard work Corbexx, much appreciated.
I would like future PVE changes to consider the impact of running solo vs in groups (in lower classes). I assume most people end up running solo as it is more profitable, but this runs against the idea of promoting group play in wormholes which IMO is a key driver in encouraging corporation growth & number of ppl out in wspace (aka content). Personally, i'd like C4 (and poss C3) to have some sites that are viable to run as a group without heavily penalising your income. Obviously there needs to be a balance between solo and group play, but it currently feels like a big divide between C1-C4 (solo) and C5-C6 (group).
I totally agree here. More group activety would help alot. Remember though, wh space is nice for a group of players to explore together, but not so much to include new people into the group once there. Due to the klunky POS's and access rights and so on. More/new better group content is all nice, but be able to facilitate more/bigger groups just as much I think. Maybe a bit off topic, but from talking to several I came across over the years in lower end of wspace. People start out with a group of players, some go inactive and leave the game, and they have a hard time replace them due to fear risk thefts and so on.
yeah its semi off topic but its relevent, and an issue. Maybe more a general issue for whole of wh space than pve isk. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:51:00 -
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Nancy Wayke wrote:Thanks for all the hard work Corbexx. The numbers are interesting, especially the C1/C2 comparison and the C3/C4 delta.
I am a C4 resident and am concerned that the C4 numbers in isolation paint a very different picture to what is seen "on the ground" as it were. C1-C3 sites can be run effectively in a Drake solo - though clearly not at the speed you were doing in your testing. Class 4 sites [i]req
yeah totally agree as said i used sisi so i could literally test stuff safely to get a base line in reality you woudl need to scan your chain, potentially put bubbles up scouts on wh's. etc etc. Is alot more that needs to be considered than just isk/hour. But that has been noted and ccp are aware of it. combined with the fact you don't even get paid till you get your stuff to hisec and sell it. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 13:56:00 -
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Shilalasar wrote:Nox52 wrote:I don't suppose you have or are willing to put up the c5 and c6 site income just to put the disparity in perspective The non-escalationnumbers were in corbexx-¦s blog iirc and were rather unimpressive. Another benfit of small farmercorps that can run their homeescalations every day for a bit, while more active groups have to rely on mehish staticfarming. Ofc the new marauders changed that a bit but they also are rather highrisk. Do not forget that this list is just a small representive part of wh-ratting. You will get better results with more optimal shipchoices (legion for c1s, carriers or fightersupport in homesites), you will get better results in synergizing group of 2+ ships, you will squeeze a bit more out by small tricks like better warpins and stuff. Even wormholeeffects will make a big difference in many holes. As corbexx said, run a dozen plus, write everything down and give it to him. From my experience a skills at 4 pilot in a drake will need almost two times as long for c3 sites and even has to warp out to recharge shields or cap in some sites. And that was the old fotm HM-drake. From what I have seen the main difference between c3 and c4 ratting is not the isk/h but also how long you can sustain it. You have to look hard to find a c3 that you can-¦t clear out in one evening of playing, 2-3 hours easily do it. However when ratting for the same time in a c4, esp if it is your homesystem, you need way less sites ergo can do it not only when you are really lucky but once or twice a week for sure. While if you stack sites in your c3 to fit for 2+ hours of ratting someone else will probably clear it out in your off hours. And noone in his right mind should compare those numbers to other kinds of income 1to1. Risk, no additional benefits like standings or secstatus, having to haul and sell it like LP are not factored in. Not to forget the single bomber that can take out your noctis/MTU/whatever or even just kill your wrecks and you walk away with nothing, while elsewhere you get your money in way shorter timeframe-"ticks".
Rough numbers and these are VERY rough for no cap escalation 120mill/hour in a c5 with rr tengus 140mill/hour in a c6 thats with 5 tengus and boosts (booster not being paid as a alt) you can make more heard of people doing 300mill/hour solo marauder in c5, but I also know loads who have lost them trying.
Cap escalation is roughly 700 million a site so all depends how many you run or have to run, and how many people.
in my C4 we use 2 ham tengus with fighter support in a mag you can do sites in no time at all and make great isk/hour but that only works for your home system, and takes advantageof the system effect. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 14:08:00 -
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Incindir Mauser wrote:corbexx wrote: Stuff stuff stuff...
I'd like to give a huge thanks to people who helped me collect this info as it really help speed things up. This combined with the testing in small groups (up to 3 people) took close to 300 hours. I was up at 4 in the morning doing the last bit of maths for C4 sites the day I left for Iceland. So it would be ready for the summit.
As said if people want to argue I'll happily listen as long as they have the proof to back it up.
Thanks for the feedback, I know you guys have been busting tail to get us this stuff. I know you had some factors not taken into consideration, such as time to export goods and sell to NPC/Market. There are two or three other upkeep factors that I can think of that would impact ISK per hour metric. One is the cost of upkeep for a POS tower in terms of fuel. This would roughly estimate to be around 10 million a day for the average tower. Ammo costs for ships that use consumable ammo, this may be negligable for T1 ammo which most people should be farming with. But I feel it should be factored in. (Paladins are beardy as hell and just plain cheating. 8D ) Also, anoms and sites can be somewhat limited in your home system and the time that it takes to roll the hole and find a new static with anoms in it is another factor once you run out of sites to run. Also, is this income comparison solely based on Wormhole to Wormhole class? Or is it being taken into consideration what income levels are like in Hisec / Lowsec / NPC null / Sov Null as compares to Wormholes?
ooh definetly its just very hard to factor most that in and get a accurate number.
balance between spaces is really hard to do tbh and is so many factors to take in to account. I certainly don't have the info to do it accurately although maybe i'll move a alt out run incursions for a weekend and post numbers that could be good for a giggle, I could even do that on tranquility as its safe. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 14:44:00 -
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Marox Calendale wrote:Wow, thanks a lot to you corbexx for doing all this work! I think rolling your static and preparing the system behind is taking so much time, that you will never get that amount of money, but it-¦s nice to see what maximum may be possible.
Totally correct rolling scanning sorting warp ins scouting will drop my figure by a huge amount. Its just really hard to factor that in isk wise. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 16:07:00 -
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Moth Eisig wrote:So assuming you use the fits Corbexx used, how many hours would you have to spend in sites for each wormhole class in order to make enough isk to break even when the inevitable gank gets you?
well C1 to C3 was a basic tengu with faction bcus not sure how much they are at the moment, but guessing 600m, paladin 1.5b to 1.8b it had 3 faction damage mods 2 faction smartbombs (needed to kill the frigs as they orbit outside regular smartbomb range)
so C1 would be 9 to 12 hours C2, 13 to 15 hours C3, 5 hours. C4 10 to 12 hours
its super rough all these figures though. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:43:00 -
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Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:Thx for the effort corbexx. Maybe for c1s i can provide additional numbers. On Tranq the best ship for flying c1s was the hurricane (T2 fit). We flew only perimeter camps in a group of 1-3 pilots. The average ribbon drop in a camp after several 100 sites is 2.8 to 2.9 per site. The last time we ran c1s with two chars with one scout at the hole and got 90m ISK/h. So i can confirm your numbers.
But you have always to take your alts into the calculation if you don't want to suicide. While you're doing incursions, LvL 4s or ratting in renter space you can fly with every char to make ISK which improves your income instead of lowering it because you need (a) scout(s). And since Hyperion PvEers need more scouts...
I have just checked my main spread sheet and for perimeter camps i get higher than 2.8 to 2.9 even using them number they are still by far the best, so that makes me happy.
yeah having tohave more scouts etc will lower it. hyperion also makes it potentially worse with more wh's added
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:50:00 -
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Obil Que wrote:
Solo clearing C1 sites (as seen in Corbexx's data) is close to 50M/hr and consistently better than running C2 sites. You get more sleepers per site, more chances for ribbons which is where the money is. Trio clearing C3 sites is around 40 per person once you divide up the loot even if you're doing them optimally. Three newbros in a Drake/Scythe are not optimal. And yes, we do take on some very new people. There are plenty of people out there interested in wormholes but put off by the months of training many corps require to even look at them. I've taken a different approach. My complaint is no different than anyone else here commenting on the state of corp roles, POS mechanics, and PvE rewards in wormhole space. Recruitment is hard because of the lack of security and the rewards do not scale well and favor solo play. I'd like to see those two state of affairs improved.
its worth noting that one site in c1 was crazy high and using Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn number of melted nanos brings it much more inline with C2 pay. c1 and c2 are still bad though (imho)
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:29:00 -
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Rek Seven wrote:You would have to run these sites every day for around a month to get a truly accurate picture. Can't you just ask CCP for the data, corbexx?
I did its the only thing they have said no to. and yeah need it run more i could probably do it now but would be nda. this atleast lets people see it. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:00:00 -
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Meytal wrote:
They have the drop tables with chances for all types of loot, as well as exact NPC compositions and chances for extras or other modifications. They could easily pick prices for one market day, and generate average values for each site, given the percentage chances for all drops, comparing it against number of NPCs and total EHP, DPS, and utility effects of each wave, to rate each site.
Given the numbers you've posted, is your impression that they are interested in getting more exact numbers of the kind only CCP can obtain? Or do they still only want to look at and talk about cap escalations and blanket apply that to all of W-space?
And speaking of cap escalations, given your experience and numbers for C5/C6, how would the income change if you could only cap escalate once?
Most of this is sadly nda, i'm working on some ideas but need to bounce it about between alot of people. sadly i'm super busy what with pos info and some other things so thi is sort of a side project at the moment. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:02:00 -
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Incindir Mauser wrote: CCP already knows what is going on with the state of W-space. We live out here because we WANT to at this point, not because it's particularly profitable.
If you really wanted to get down to the nitty gritty, station trading is the highest isk per hour activity with literally ZERO risk. But we aren't making those kinds of comparisons. That would address why W-space is slowly bleeding playerbase.
This is basically spot on. If we wanted max isk it woudlbe station trading then incursions. as you said we live in wormholes cos we like it. The issue is we really need to intice more more people in, and that means incentives. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:09:00 -
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Nox52 wrote:I don't suppose you have or are willing to put up the c5 and c6 site income just to put the disparity in perspective?
Right got some info (and permission to post it).
This is for C6 fully escalated sites 171 sites run (so HUGE sample size compared to the c1 to c4 stuff as its cap escalations doesnt matter what site since we dont do them just the escalation.)
Average of 690million per site. Average of 7 minutes 42 seconds per site. Average of 270 mill/hour per person.
Better than C4 to C1 but thats fully escalated and with a fair sized group, if you had just 5 people you would make alot more. without cap escalation its going to drop a **** load maybe half that, potentially less.
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Posted - 2014.09.22 23:17:00 -
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Jack Miton wrote:corbexx wrote:This is for C6 fully escalated sites 171 sites run (so HUGE sample size compared to the c1 to c4 stuff as its cap escalations doesnt matter what site since we dont do them just the escalation.)
Average of 690million per site. Average of 7 minutes 42 seconds per site. Average of 270 mill/hour per person. I like that youre posting these numbers but this is highly inefficient for escalations so I'm assuming you run sites with a ton of people that aren't needed. if you look at minimum numbers, you have 4 cap pilots, loki, booster, salvager. I'm calling this 6 pilots as at the very least the booster or salvager is an alt. A crew like this can very comfortably run 4 sites an hour including all travel and salvage (5 if theyre any good). (This is just warping to the site at zero, no making BMs or whatever) At 700m/site this works out to (700 x 4)/6 = 466mil/hour/toon Obviously this scales very fast if you start using alts. That said, you numbers do post a more accurate value for a large corp that involves many people in their site running so also good to know.
ooh it is this is data straight from noho and we do it with alot of people so yes low if you compare it to farmers with min numbers, but for larger corps/allainces probably accurate. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.23 15:48:00 -
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calaretu wrote:Winthorp wrote: It scares me that they are making Reverse Engineering changes and as they realise that it will affect profit margins of the RE builders (like me) they have said they would look at changing the drop rate of MNR's. It shocks me that that alone hasn't scared more people that they would make such a major change based on the income stream of a HS industrial player and not think of the consequences to a WH resident that relies on that for their daily income.
This is a huge issue if altered without taking into account all of the aspects it affect. Our CSM's on this ball?
yes on it already been raised several times as well. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.24 09:59:00 -
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Jack Hayson wrote: It's a bit weird that CCP lets corbexx do tons of work to collect data that they should already have available.
yeah lets not go there. But the info is still of use even if just for comparison.
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Posted - 2014.09.24 16:01:00 -
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Saede Riordan wrote:I may very well get shouted down for this.
But I feel that wormhole space, as a rule, should be more profitable then highsec incursions.
I don't think you will get shouted down on that, in this forum thats for sure. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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Posted - 2014.09.25 12:04:00 -
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umnikar wrote:corbexx wrote:
I'd like to include C5 and C6 sites with cap escaltions its pretty easy for me to get info very easily. but again it varies depending on how you do stuff (or if you share) 5 characters multi boxing will be insane isk. while 10 people in a site will be good isk but not insane isk. without the cap escalation it drops off alot. will see if i can get numbers.
I have some NoHo numbers but need to get permission to publish them.
and I have no idea on lvl 4 income but its way way lower than highsec incursions thats for sure.
Well, you choosed to run sites on a minimalistic(min nr. of toons). It also varies alot how people are running lower class sites. Why should that be different in c5/6 only? How do you come to the point it's tengu and paladin??? I for example never used one of those ships. Pretty sure you have the experience yourself already for c5/6 and could include the data - no need to ask NoHo. We all apreciate your work on this one, but it's again numbers which will lead to wrong changes made... *sigh* Just google some **** and you have a good overview: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1270848#post1270848http://syncaine.com/2012/06/22/eve-c5-isk/... Not to say running c1-4 sites solo in a shiny ship is totaly meh - specially after hyperion.
If you dont use a tengu or paladin feel free to run all them sites in what ever you use and post up the results for people to see. As for the running minimalistic I've also do c1 to c4 in groups of 1 to 3 people but thats on the csm forum which is nda so that has been taken in to account. the c5 or c6 sites is pretty easy to work out just assume 700m a site and split taht between how ever many people you have. yes if your running with 5 people its going to be alot more than if you run with 10 plus people.
as for the results you have linked there over 2 years old and price of nanos has crashed since then.
As for the no need to ask noho, its commen curtacy to ask before publishing stuff. They might not want some stuff publishedon how much we do or do not earn. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
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