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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 41 post(s) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
1945
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:39:00 -
[3571] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Is activating the jump drive while in gate cloak being considered? That would make gate camps somewhat manageable when moving capitals. I thought you could already do this (jump while in gate cloak)? Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:39:00 -
[3572] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Murauke wrote:Changing the Cyno mechanic changes force projection. punishing people for jumping ships isn't the way forward. I'd go so far as to say that 'punishing' people is never the answer. Trying to throw road blocks up in front of gamers just encourages them to find ways to break through (or over, or under, or around) those road blocks. Time and time again CCP has tried this and time and time again it failed. What works is TOOLS, more tools for people to figure out new and novel ways to accomplish desired goals. I'm sure some of us will continue to repeat our warnings to CCP: What they are doing right now will backfire and make the groups you want to knock down even stronger than before (hashtag ObiWanGotStruckDown).
CCP doesn't want to knock anyone down. This doesn't have anything to do with punishment.
The melodrama is hilarious. This is easily top 5 best threads ever. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain." |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1668
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:41:00 -
[3573] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:The Ironfist wrote:CCP Greyscale Do you guys have someone asking the question "is this fun?" during the development process? Just how much time do you think people are willing to spend on a game that is not fun at all. Right now logistics from deep null-sec to empire spaces takes about half an hour. After this change it will be around 7 hours do you really think people are willing to spend that amount of time on a game for literally no progress or reward?
I'm sure this is just a first draft but seriously ask the question is this fun? Will this be fun gameplay? I look forward to your reply. We ask "is this going to add net positive value to the overall game experience for a sufficient number of players to justify its downsides". How does the JF nerf add a 'overall positive experience' to the game?
Obviously he is not talkign about the JF pilot. He is talking about small gangs HUNTIGN the JF that will make need of escorts and create small scale fight.
The nerf to JF is the ONLY part that is good on all this nerfing. And in fact should be LARGER. JF destroyed one of the most fun ops that ever existed in 0.0 "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1540
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:41:00 -
[3574] - Quote
Oh, you think HTFU is your ally, but you merely adopted hardship. I was born in it, molded by it. I didnGÇÖt see sov until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding! The shadows betray you, because they belong to me. I will show you where I have made my home, whilst preparing to bring justice. Then, I will break you. Your precious armoury, gratefully accepted. We will need it. Ah yes, I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit, or your body. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5522
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:41:00 -
[3575] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Rutger Centemus wrote:Lemme guess - you expect people to web supers into warp...? I expect people to get an escort.
This is the one day I agreed and liked a Greyscale post . The universe as we know it is shortly coming to an end!
You know what, I am *almost* getting motivated to join my PvP corp again.
Back at the time, escorting 6-7 freighters with 50/70 ships through low and null was one of the biggest pew pew catalysts EVER.
Might make blobbers shiver but small and medium scale PvP could reborn! Finally!!!! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
272
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:41:00 -
[3576] - Quote
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:How do you think they think it's going to work out? I was hoping it wasn't "Carriers Online." If they're saying 3 minutes-per-LY, and yet we're getting cap ships that can take gates with 10s align times and potentially over 6-AU warp speeds, then there's a disconnect there. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
532
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:41:00 -
[3577] - Quote
The Ironfist wrote:CCP Greyscale Do you guys have someone asking the question "is this fun?" during the development process? Just how much time do you think people are willing to spend on a game that is not fun at all. Right now logistics from deep null-sec to empire spaces takes about half an hour. After this change it will be around 7 hours do you really think people are willing to spend that amount of time on a game for literally no progress or reward?
I'm sure this is just a first draft but seriously ask the question is this fun? Will this be fun gameplay? I look forward to your reply.
Is this fun?? Heck yeah (in the words of my golden retriever) This is the best day ever (wag wag wag). Now did they ask "Is this fun for Ironfist?" it's pretty obvious by your post that this change is not custom crafted for your personal view of eve enjoyment. So, let's be fair and let my 'best day ever' cancel out your 'this sux' and call it balanced.
I'm thinking they are banking on people NOT being willing to spend all that time making no progress. I think they are also banking on the average eve player being average and adapting. I think they are also banking on that adaptation NOT ending with a big blue donut.
If you see this as you being personally kicked in the junk for the greater good of the game, then please sit down, relax and the pain will subside. In a few days or weeks you'll be able to get up and walk around in the new normal. If you don't like it, feel free to adapt. It probably won't be as a part of team Supercap Win. |
Moatie
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
11
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:42:00 -
[3578] - Quote
[quote=Sally Hermoine]CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.
We've performed our JF calculations for routes to high sec from our space. There are zero station routes. Jumping a JF into a non-station system is suicide because 1). JF arrives in system needing cap plus fatigue 2) JF sits in system recovering cap and fatigue 3) Said JF has no cloak, long cap recharge time.
Bottom line, many sectors of null-sec will be without access to markets. Large alliances will set up JB networks and POS structures to create interior lines of moving freight with multiple pilots. It's the smaller corps that will not be able to gain access to markets. So, to the quoted post above, this will inherently move all small corps out of deep null. You cannot defend and thrive in deep null sec without access to markets.
I do like radical changes in Eve - it keeps the game interesting. However, reviewing the proposed JF range of 5 Ly, it is highly problematic relative to the goal of getting more smaller corps and involvement in null sec.
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:42:00 -
[3579] - Quote
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Riddari Prowler wrote:Does CCP think most of the people saying they like this change in this thread are serious? Or do they understand that majority of them are just trolling? well no, they're not trolling, they do like the change they just like it for the sole reason they think it hurts us and they want that not that they understand anything about it No, we like them because they're good mechanics. Your delusions of persecution and grandeur are the product of your egos, not everyone else's 'grrr goons'. The best (and only, imo) joy at your expense to be had here is the schadenfreude watching your alliance's shock and disappointment in thinking it's CMS reps had locked in the changes YOU wanted, (which would have been utterly terrible for the game without THIS change.) Oh how could they do this without your approval? And without telling you about it before hand? It's a regular Greek tragedy I tell ya. I don't mean to be insulting, but there's really no way to say this without it being insulting: you and your cohorts have not demonstrated you have the knowledge or intelligence to understand the changes, and you certainly haven't shown that you're aware of even what parts we have issues with and which we're fine with (and, importantly, where we agree with the goal but disagree the mechanics get you there, versus disagreeing with the goal). |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13496
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:42:00 -
[3580] - Quote
Isha Subula wrote:
and having industrialists in null is a bad thing? Being able to move large quantities of ships, mods whatever from high to null is a part of the problem. Now null pvp'ers will have to stop treating miners like crap and actually accept that they need them to survive.
Problem here is that there are things that null cannot get locally and stuff that high sec cannot get locally. Trade still needs to happen, neither can be totally self sufficient. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8439
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:42:00 -
[3581] - Quote
OMG I just realized. People are thinking this will bring back convoys.
It will.
FAST IN WARP NANO REMOTE REP CARRIER Convoys. Convoys chocked full of supplies yet unbreakable except for with super caps that the 'little alliances' don't have., WAY safer than the freighter convoys of the past (freighters can't remote rep each others or refit off each other(. Who needs an escort when you can have one guy triage and the rest drop fighter after fighter, sentry after sentry?
We gonna emergent all over your gameplay :) |
Lazarann
Ideal Machine The Explicit Alliance
12
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:43:00 -
[3582] - Quote
Between the distance from everything else, the incoming nightmare logistics, and the already sub-par PVE content compared to the other null sec regions, I really hope drone regions get some love from this so there's some incentive to put up with it.
Want to start a local market? Too bad you have to import all your meta modules still since drones don't drop anything.
What about allowing JF's to jump to covert cynos so if I have to dead drop into a system at least they'll need a half-skilled probe alt to find me before I can jump out?
I'm all for reducing power projection but I don't see why logistics need to become so awful as a result. Really looking forward to this route though. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1668
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:44:00 -
[3583] - Quote
Sally Hermoine wrote:CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.
And then we are expected to earn isk? Not possible anymore no where to sell goods noway to move it , minerals are dying in price and will only get worse, for high sec also as noone will buy caps off the market now. They will be just be made locally (which i dont mind too) but the market is gonna go way down, also losing lots of subscribers will just make matters worse. So yeah im not happy :(
The JF ragne nerf is the ONLY good part on all this. Will make supply routes be PIRATED again. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
182
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:44:00 -
[3584] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Cyno mass limits mean the alliance willing to create the most cyno alts wins, this is not a good thing to incentivize.
So make it so that the Alliance with the most Jump capable alts wins? Shortening the jump range makes it so that you will need more cyno alts to do the same moving of goods. The addition of the cool down timer now makes it so that you need to train additional JF pilot alts.
CCP Greyscale wrote: - There's not that more to measure - we've had a good long think about this, we think it's the right thing to do, but EVE is a sufficiently complex system that there's no way to know what the outcome is without shipping it to TQ, and a few extra months of theorycrafting won't change that fact, unfortunately.
This is an extremely arrogant comment. With all the holes that various people in these forums have pointed out about your basic theory I think it's sufficient to say that you have not thought this out very well at all and could stand to think this through a little better.
You say that you are putting this out there because you want our input but most of your answers can be summed up as " I know what I'm doing you all are just ignorant cry babies".
So many times in past changes average players have warned you on these forums and been proven correct. Further even after you guys make changes and they don't pan out well it is very rare that you ever revert or go back and fix things. Adding back ship spinning is the only exception to this and that took weeks of player protests to make happen.
You guys have a history of introducing broken mechanics and then moving on to the next thing to break without looking back.
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Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:46:00 -
[3585] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Problem here is that there are things that null cannot get locally and stuff that high sec cannot get locally. Trade still needs to happen, neither can be totally self sufficient.
I'm sure no solutions will be found and the game will die then.
Oh no wait... this game has survived (and thrived) without these mechanics the way they were, and it will post-changes as well. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain." |
Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:46:00 -
[3586] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: - Yup, Masterplan is doing some fine-tuning of warp logic to make this sort of thing smoother. There's no good way to warp 20 titans to a gate at once without bumping, though.
So, you just said that you know your plan won't work, but you're going through with it anyway.
CCP Greyscale wrote: Jump length distance has almost no impact on travel time, number of midpoints is largely irrelevant to travel time when fatigue is a factor.
This is wildly incorrect.
Say I have a trip that is made up of 3 legs currently, to go 30ly. 13ly, 14ly, 7ly.
Under current mechanics, it takes me a few minutes to cap up between jumps and light my cynos.
If we ONLY add fatigue, the total trip takes me a little under 45 minutes, and I end up with about 8 days of fatigue to wait off. If we wait off the fatigue between each jump, it takes 4.8 hours.
If we make a route of 6 jumps, 5ly each as the 3rd example, then it would take 65 ish hours to make the trip if we don't wait off fatigue, and we would end up with like a year and a half of fatigue. If we wait off the fatigue between each jump, total trip time takes 5 hours.
So, yes. Jump distance has an impact on travel time. You have come up with an exponential growth system. Number of units has a direct and large impact on growth rate in that kind of a system. Especially on player choice.
In the 2nd example, I could make the first jump, wait off my fatigue, and sprint to the end. Trip takes me about 3 hours and I end with about an 18 hour fatigue decay time frame.
In the 3rd example, if I try to make a trip that takes the same length of time, my trip takes 3.5 hours and I end up with 21 hours of fatigue decay at best rate.
I've said it before in this thread, but i'll restate it. You are doing this ass backwards. You're taking away tools used to play the game in it's current state, and then telling us to wait and it'll be better later. You should be making your other changes first, make us WANT to live in a smaller number of systems first, THEN adjust the toolset to deal with the game as it stands then.
Because right now, it just looks like you guys don't algebra. Saying that the number of steps is "largely irrelevant" in an exponential growth system just makes me think you don't understand what those words mean. |
Lyron-Baktos
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
463
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:46:00 -
[3587] - Quote
Am I reading it correctly in that I could jump a carrier 5ly, wait 6 minutes or so, and then be completely reset? Then jump again, wait another 6 minutes or so and be reset again. Rinse and repeat? How the **** do you remove a signature? |
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:47:00 -
[3588] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: This is an extremely arrogant comment.
I'd say it's not nearly as arrogant as the people so sure this will be the end of the world before they've even seen it in action.
"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain." |
Summer VonSturm
Senex Legio
22
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:48:00 -
[3589] - Quote
Raelaem Eudain wrote:
See you in N-d and M-M =)
Yes sir, yes you will :)
Reading through several pages today, it appears that a lot of the big groups wanted power and force projection nerfs, as long as it didn't effect their ability to project force, or power.
Those saying that a lot of the smaller groups will get swallowed up by bigger groups, newsflash, that's already happened, there are only a tiny number of non-aligned groups left
Those complaining that big fights will never happen, they will, they will just need proper planning and support for movement, rather than the 'suddenly 250 Archons' on every little fight
Those saying that Nullsec will become unattackable, newsflash, its currently unattackable, either due to stagnation, NAP's, force projection, or people dropping every capital for 100 LY around at a moments notice. You want to take a region, or defend one, start planning for it.
There are downsides, and no doubt some change will happen, depending on those views that give constructive feedback, rather than the insta-kneejerk ragequit posts.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
532
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:48:00 -
[3590] - Quote
Eigenvalue wrote:Ashlore wrote:Will be fun to change corp. If caps not are going trou JB why add fatigue to that as well?
Presumably to nerf multi region coalitions that can move sub caps across new eden with a dozen or so jumps&gates. Seems a bit of a sledge hammer though, punishing the innocent to slightly change the behavior of the guilty.
The only innocents that are harmed are the ones following the guilty. If you're an innocent paying rent..... you're guilty. |
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Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
79
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:48:00 -
[3591] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:Am I reading it correctly in that I could jump a carrier 5ly, wait 6 minutes or so, and then be completely reset? Then jump again, wait another 6 minutes or so and be reset again. Rinse and repeat?
If you wait out your timers for each jump, no big deal and no big wait.
If you're trying to move far, quickly. Things will start to add up. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain." |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13498
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:48:00 -
[3592] - Quote
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Problem here is that there are things that null cannot get locally and stuff that high sec cannot get locally. Trade still needs to happen, neither can be totally self sufficient.
I'm sure no solutions will be found and the game will die then. Oh no wait... this game has survived (and thrived) without these mechanics the way they were, and it will post-changes as well.
Sure it will continue, but it will mean that t2 prices will rise sharply and the outer reaches of null will be all but abandoned. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Brigadine Ferathine
Dream Warriors
11
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:48:00 -
[3593] - Quote
Ormarr Kai wrote:Does CCP even think about their next patch or just randomly guess changes? This will stagnate nullsec even more. The real target should be sov mechanics. Half of these changes also bite into eve's lore.
Eve is all about big fights and coalitions. Maybe add more systems to spread things out. Do you have any idea how many empty systems there are? We don't need more systems... |
J A Aloysiusz
Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited
53
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:49:00 -
[3594] - Quote
I believe that:
- Dreads and carriers, as lighter, less powerful ships, should not be subject to the same level of penalty as the true behemoths of the game. - Carriers have a unique and fairly well-balanced logistical capability, and should be allowed to maintain that capability as much as possible. - Bridging through ships should not subject the same level of penalty as jumping - if bridging is penalized less harshly than jumping, then bridging can be used to project a light force forward, to bide time for the behemoths to get into position, and that's the way warfare should be. - If the current iteration of the proposed changes is not tempered, the rorqual will be more useful in many combat situations than the chimera, and that's not the way EVE warfare should be.
Therefore, I propose that: -Rather than a flat range limit for all capital ships, all (combat) capitals simply have their current maximum jump range halved. -Mass is added as a factor in the accumulation of jump fatigue for (combat) capitals. This will affect regular capitals less than supercapitals, allowing them to be somewhat more mobile, but still significantly less so than their current state. -Jump fatigue be greatly reduced for ships that are taking a bridge, allowing them to act as skirmish or fixing forces.
If you agree with some/all of my proposed changes, please +1, comment, etc.
o7 |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
20
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:49:00 -
[3595] - Quote
I honestly didn't think you would have the balls, CCP, and was thinking you would continue to bleed subs.
Instead you reward us with this. Thank you !
Can't wait for Corp / Starbase code changes.
PS, any news on the Rorqual rebalance yet, or is the new Fatigue bonus all it's going to get changed?
-- Fang |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1668
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:50:00 -
[3596] - Quote
Heat-seeking Moisture Missile wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Sorry, lost a few from earlier when the forum ate a post Schmell wrote:Quote: The length of this timer is a number of minutes equal to your jump fatigue (before being increased by that jump!), and you are unable to make another jump of any kind until this timer expires. Can you clarify this please? Does that mean that if i take a jumpbridge with any ship, i will be unable to jump through gates, or this "jump of any kind" is only about jumpdrives/bridges? Only about jump drives, jump bridges and jump portals. Gate jumps are never affected. If CCP insists on keeping this "caps thru gates" idea, there are a few twists you can put in to encourage it. variations on the theme are - can't use a gate in a cap until fatigue is over ___ - using a gate in a cap, speeds the reduction of fatigue for a short period of time (60 secs?) etc
the gates are ok for JF and create a nice mechanics were the JF will not instantly appear at destination but will ahve to travel and use the jump to avoid danger. But titans crossing gates soung and will look really dumb.
Imagine the day they allow one in high sec as they said they are THINKING still about.. how jita undock will look like. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1283
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:50:00 -
[3597] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:Am I reading it correctly in that I could jump a carrier 5ly, wait 6 minutes or so, and then be completely reset? Then jump again, wait another 6 minutes or so and be reset again. Rinse and repeat?
You are reading right. If you don't chain the jump back to back as soon as your CD is up but burn fatigue also, the number won't skyrocket. All the calculation ending up in days and week of travel are case where they jump as soon as available. CCP basicly says "**** you, you have to spend some time in the system or you will spend a bunch more in the next one". If you try to push your luck more than once, your "timeout" get's pretty large and you start crying and CCP looks at you and say "told you so". |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
97
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:50:00 -
[3598] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:OMG I just realized. People are thinking this will bring back convoys.
It will.
FAST IN WARP NANO REMOTE REP CARRIER Convoys. Convoys chocked full of supplies yet unbreakable except for with super caps that the 'little alliances' don't have., WAY safer than the freighter convoys of the past (freighters can't remote rep each others or refit off each other(. Who needs an escort when you can have one guy triage and the rest drop fighter after fighter, sentry after sentry?
We gonna emergent all over your gameplay :) +1, bravo! |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
229
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Posted - 2014.10.02 16:50:00 -
[3599] - Quote
This whole thread is hilarious. All the whining makes me laugh and laugh...
I luv changes like this... |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
1945
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 16:51:00 -
[3600] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The JF ragne nerf is the ONLY good part on all this. Will make supply routes be PIRATED again. Not really sure about that.
Competent logistic (transport) pilots tend to be very careful. Most of the time, I think they'll just take the longer (time) but zero-risk option.
Meaning that ultimately, we will be able to pirate just the usual morons. Not that much content, at the end of the day.
OTOH, supplies taking longer will likely mean that everybody in the game - no matter where they live - will have less ships to play with. That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.
I'd much rather have easier supply lines for 'combat' PVPers (combat ship vs. combat ship) than a few more JF kills for 'pirate' PVPers (combat ship vs. transport ship). Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
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