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Cletus Graeme
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Posted - 2006.08.09 19:38:00 -
[1]
There has been much discussion about the effectiveness of the Ferox for PVP but little about the much neglected Moa. It has the same ship bonuses and a mixture of rail and missile hardpoints but it is not as versatile since it is not possible to switch betweeen a rail & missile setup like you can on a Ferox.
I like to think that if a Caracal & a Moa had a baby it woudl be the Ferox, since the Ferox has 5 mids (like cara) and can fit 5 launchers (like cara).
Anyway - enough about the Ferox - let get back to the Moa.
The ship decription states :
Moas are most effective at long ranges where it's railguns and missile batteries can rain death upon foes.
However, I have yet to find a pilot who considers the Moa to be a good damage dealer at long range compared with the Caracal.
Rails have the dual advantages of instant hits & a higher ROF but because they do so little damage at long range the Moa performers poorly vs the Cara.
So to be a useful ship for pvp I propose that the Moa ship bonii need to be revised.
Special Ability: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistance per level.
I suggest changing the 10% range bonus to 5% range and 5% damage per level
What are your thoughts in general and about my suggestion specifically. Please try to be constructive with any criticism - I am making a suggestion - I don't know yet if it is a good idea or not. I would appreciate your feedback.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2006.08.09 19:47:00 -
[2]
The reason you don't see a missile Moa setup is because the Caracal exists, and is a much better missile cruiser. There is no corresponding missile battlecruiser, so if you want a battlecruiser with missiles, you use the Ferox and just not use the rail bonus. As soon as the missile battlecruiser comes out, you'll most likely see a dropoff in missile based Ferox.
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Cletus Graeme
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Posted - 2006.08.09 19:56:00 -
[3]
Actually, u can fit 2 heavies on a Moa but then u only have enuf grid to fit dual rails which have crappy range & damage.
In contrast the Ferox has 5 launcher hardpoints and 5 turret hardpoints.
So, yes, you are correct that there is no long range Moa missile setup and, yes, I think it is because we have the Caracal for just that.
My point is that the Moa is NOT an effective long range railboat while the Cara is an effective long range missileboat.
They should be equally good at long range 'cos that's what the Caldari specialise at but they are not.
So maybe the rail bonii need to be revised to make this so ?
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babylonstew
Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:03:00 -
[4]
moa and eagle need a 5/2 layout, turets/launchers, and a slighht grid boost. there, sorted
Forum advice Linkage |
valerydarcy
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:06:00 -
[5]
i used to pvp and 0.0 rat in a moa some time back- and if you know what youre doing, they work well. i remember winning 1v1's against a scorp, ferox, prophecy, even a raven once.. it is possible. i used to fit 4 light t2 blasters and 2 med nos. renders the gun bonus useless but allows for a large t2 booster tank which is awesome. ***
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Fon Revedhort
RUS Academy Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 09/08/2006 20:08:08 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 09/08/2006 20:07:40 Are you kidding? 10% of optimal bonus is usually considered as equal to 5% of damage already. So you are suggesting to add a 5% optimal bonus 'for free' and eventually get 3 different bonuses on a t1 ship! Why the heck should Moa be that special?
edited for spelling
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Ozzie Asrail
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 09/08/2006 20:08:08 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 09/08/2006 20:07:40 Are you kidding? 10% of optimal bonus is usually considered as equal to 5% of damage already. So you are suggesting to add a 5% optimal bonus 'for free' and eventually get 3 different bonuses on a t1 ship! Why the heck should Moa be that special?
edited for spelling
Because its a caldari ship!!!
Moa is ok tbh, it could use an extra rail hardpoint but overall its not a bad ship with decent gunnery skills.
It's jsuta the caracal is better. -----
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:21:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 09/08/2006 20:21:37
IMHO, Moa is fine. No need to change anything though it could use a little loving. 6/5/3 slot layout? ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
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Denrace
Amarr STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:26:00 -
[9]
Bonii?
No such word.
"Bonus" or "Bonuses".
Anywho...Moa is fine, its a great little sniper and is fun with Blasters and EW.
Slots seem fine to me too.
Den ________________________________________
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.09 20:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ozzie Asrail
Moa is ok tbh, it could use an extra rail hardpoint but overall its not a bad ship with decent gunnery skills.
It's jsuta the caracal is better.
Well, that is kinda my point. Why should the cara be better ? Cos if it is, then why would I use a Moa if I can use a Cara instead ?
Also, you say it could use an extra rail hardpoint but then say it's ok ? Isn't that a contradiction ?
Several of you mention the effectiveness of using a blastermoa. Please read my OP. I am aware a boa is effective. I am talking about long range here - i.e. rails
However, it could be that my gunnery skills arent good enough to do decent damage with rails yet so I will reserve further judgement for now.
But I know very few pilots who use a rail Moa for pvp and the main reason why seems to be it's poor damage output. If any of you actually do fly a rail moa for pvp I would be especially interested to hear your views.
It just seems strange that a ship supposedly designed for long range combat is used more as a close range gank/tank in pvp.....
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.09 21:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme It just seems strange that a ship supposedly designed for long range combat is used more as a close range gank/tank in pvp.....
Not strange because blasters >>>> rails and the 2 med nos cripple your target. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
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valerydarcy
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.08.09 21:32:00 -
[12]
Edited by: valerydarcy on 09/08/2006 21:33:12
Originally by: Denrace Bonii?
No such word.
"Bonus" or "Bonuses".
quite right.. was going to point this out. the 'i' suffix as a plural is only applicable to words of latin origin.
otherwise peni would also be a word ***
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.09 21:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Not strange because blasters >>>> rails and the 2 med nos cripple your target.
I am not at all disputing the fact that up-close blasters > rails. That is supposedly why up close thorax > moa.
But for that very reason, if the moa really is the *nemesis* of the rax, it needs to be able to inflict enuf damage to kill it before the rax closes with mwd - which I'm not sure is currently the case.
Thorax pilots I have asked about this say they have no problem tanking a rail moa at long range cos it doesnt do enuf damage to worry them.
Maybe I am reading too much into the ship description but while it is good at other things (i.e. short range tanking & ganking) the Moa just doesn't seem to fulfill the role it was designed for....
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.09 21:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme Maybe I am reading too much into the ship description but while it is good at other things (i.e. short range tanking & ganking) the Moa just doesn't seem to fulfill the role it was designed for....
Caldari is a support race. Caldari is not a solo race. Caldari is quite balanced.
One Caldari, poo. Two Caldari, crap. Three Caldari, not too bad. Four Caldarr, nice. Five Caldari, good. Six Caldari, awesome. Seven Caldari, magnificient.
/me cant wait for factional warfare. I see the Caldari Empire will grow and the forums will be full of non-Caldari whinings. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.09 21:57:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 09/08/2006 21:58:20
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me cant wait for factional warfare. I see the Caldari Empire will grow and the forums will be full of non-Caldari whinings.
/me totally agrees ! bring on Kali - it is time for the state to show what we are really made of.
My only regret is that I suspect our fleets will be composed mostly of missileboats cos our railboats suck
Nothing wrong with that I suppose given that even the Jove (supposedly the most advanced race in EVE) choose to fit most missile launchers on their ships....
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.09 22:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: valerydarcy Edited by: valerydarcy on 09/08/2006 21:33:12
Originally by: Denrace Bonii?
No such word.
"Bonus" or "Bonuses".
quite right.. was going to point this out. the 'i' suffix as a plural is only applicable to words of latin origin.
otherwise peni would also be a word
Look! Two grammar cops! How swell...
Bonus stem from latin word for good. *****, however, does not have such a distinct relation, since ***** means "tail". Yes, I took the time to look that up. If you have to know, the irregular ending of -ses is added to words ending with -s in modern english - which incidentally doesn't negate the alternative ending of -ii for pluralis as a valid form. Face it, lads, there are better things to argue about than the use of old pluralis forms on a forum where the mayority of the participants are non-english speakers. Just be glad someone actually uses the quaint and archaic forms of the language. Or maybe it's a du-ni reaction (it's a swedish thing, don't ask).
---
Now. Back on track. If the Moa needs anything, it's another turret hardpoint. And maybe another few powergrid points, but seriously it's only 40 powergrid units behind the Thorax (which also uses hybrids) and the Moa doesn't even need an MWD. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.09 22:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme My only regret is that I suspect our fleets will be composed mostly of missileboats cos our railboats suck
What? Speak for yourself. I cant wait to Rokh and Roll!!!!1111oneeleven1!! ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
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MuffinsRevenger
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2006.08.09 22:40:00 -
[18]
the merlin is cute, but imho it lacks a medslot :|
Originally by: The Wizz117 jeez those guyz @ ccp talk like sweedish nobody will take u seriouse with that cind of accent.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 23:07:00 -
[19]
iots hard to come upo with anything for the moa, because fitting the longest range guns to use its bonuses is kinda limted because of the smallg rif.
imo it needs a grid boost, to b able to eompete with the other races tier4 cruisers.
theres a reason the moa is like never seen on the pvp battlefield. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.09 23:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
to b able to eompete with the other races tier4 cruisers.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.08.09 23:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: valerydarcy Edited by: <snip> ---
Now. Back on track. If the Moa needs anything, it's another turret hardpoint. And maybe another few powergrid points, but seriously it's only 40 powergrid units behind the Thorax (which also uses hybrids) and the Moa doesn't even need an MWD.
Railguns use less powergrid than blasters though. IMHO the moa needs about 120 more PG and have 1 more turret hard point. I always thought that blasters used more pg than rails until I thought about training up gallente cruiser to 4 as an alternative to the moa. took me a while to figure out why it was gonna take me so many fitting mods to fit them.
My opinion is that with engineering 5, a ship should be able to fit a full rack of its guns biggest guns and missles with no fitting mods, and have 1 point of powergrid per mid and low slot. fitting mods and AWU should have to be used for things like plates, extenders, boosters and reppers.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.10 00:42:00 -
[22]
The Moa needs a 5/1 hardpoint split, and the Eagle needs 5/1 or even 6/0.
You don't need two launcher slots on a Moa when you have five on the Caracal. Missile users get the Cara, rail users should have the Moa to themselves, with all five hardpoints. Keep in mind that this still doesn't put it even close to the Thorax in terms of damage because it doesn't have the Thorax's damage bonus.
The Eagle is supposed to be the most dedicated sniper in EVE, so it has NO NEED FOR LAUNCHERS. Instead, six turrets makes perfect sense, although it still wouldn't be outdamaging the Deimos. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.10 01:11:00 -
[23]
This topic brings painfull memories...
When Tuxford revised the tech I ships, some of us (very few) went to the test server and tested all combinations possible to make the Moa worth flying. All of those test conclusions were posted and it boiled down to this: the Moa needs more grid and a fifth medslot. Tux ignored all arguments.
For some reason, the Caracal got a 5th mid and the Moa was left out in the cold. I think (Tux will correct me if I'm wrong) that the Moa was left in it's utter crappy state because it is supposed to be a long range anti-frig support ship and that's it. Unfortunately, it is very hard to have PvP fights at range that favour the Moa, so the ship is not flown at all in it's current state.
While a Caracal, Rupture, Thorax or even Maller are worth flying, the Moa is not. Now, if factional warfare ever makes it in and we have racial fights (what a wet dream!) the Moa could fullfill it's role if pure Caldari fleets are engaged... and the enemy is foolish enough to let the Caldari dictate their range.
When it comes to solo fighting, it's pretty irritating that many think Caldari suck at soloing. It's irritating because it's true.
____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships |
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