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Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 12:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello capsuleers,
I would like to present to you the bubble thread. I've been getting increasingly annoyed recently while roaming at the large amounts of bubbles being placed strategically on gates of various sectors of space, to the point where it has prompted me to start this thread.
I'll be posting screenshots from here out onward of every example of 'excessive' use of anchor-able bubbles that I happen to stumble across while roaming. This isn't going to be a butt-hurt whine thread, more of an example to help build up a case study for the idea I'd like to propose.
I would like to propose that all anchored bubbles are cleared from space by the server upon downtime.
Here are some reasons why I would like to see this change implemented:
- They do not promote an active playstyle.
- Various things thought EVE's history have been nerfed / changed due the active/passive relationship not sitting in harmony, some examples of this were ghost training & datacores. I strongly believe that anchor-able bubbles tie in with this also, sure they do not directly 'generate isk' but they do generate a permanent passive deterrent for which very little input has to be applied - which in turn enables the farming of ISK safely on a longer term basis. This coupled with extensive jump bridge networks quite effectively manages to re-route the traffic of 0.0.
There is very little need for players to use stargates when there are alter whole constellations protected by the bubble barricade & they have alternative means of safe travel.
- They are tactically placed (exploit).
- The title is pretty much a given, but here I'm not referring to the gates / distances where they are anchored, I'm talking about the amount of bubbles that are anchored, often so many so that even if you're in an interdiction proof ship such as an interceptor, you're still unable to perform your role / scout for potential targets due to either the absolute blindness (see images on following posts), or the insane drop in fps performance. To give you an idea, with a GTX770 and a high spec'd machine my FPS drops to 17 in these situations. But I think everyone already knows/ has experienced this at least once in their EVE career. I think exploit is a harsh word, but this is what it is.
- Did I mention the numbers of bubbles placed? I've counted 47+ large T1 bubbles before, which can easily cover a radius of 160-200km around a gate, it's just ridiculous. Even if a passing gang decided to act upon it, the sheer amount of bubbles would just deter them, since there is nothing generated from killing them. It would also frankly take up too much time and ammo to destroy them all.
- The petition process.
- I'm fairly confident that excessive bubble use is already considered an exploit (correct me if I'm wrong). But the petition process is so long-winded that no one actually bothers to report this use of anchored bubbles, and in turn, nothing ever gets done about it. This is why I propose a change in the way we react to these situations.
- Accountability.
- I think CCP is slowly catching onto this one (re: the recent dev blog post to do with occupancy etc), however I think that for me 'Occupancy' doesn't quite hit the mark, as various articles have already speculated, it may be liable to abuse. For me the term 'Accountability' better suits. People aren't accountable for the space they live in. Not only at a senior level but at a fundamental level also. The current trend of blue doughnuts and rental alliances has created a mindset in eve where people no longer do anything to protect the space they live in at a basic level. It's too easy to anchor a metric f*ton of bubbles on various gates and just dock for 10-15 minutes while a hostile gang passes. Where's the risk / reward relationship here?
- Ok, Sure the ESS system was invented, but if you're a regular roamer, you've already seen how this has been abused. Bounties for anyone who interacts with the ESS for two or so minutes? Easy. Doing it while it's anchored at a POS or anomaly with a full forced spawn? (and often within the anomaly structure so you bounce off / cant warp) - Goodluck. Also, bounty ratio/ESS amount usually isn't even worth the locals effort to defend if it is anchored the way it was designed.
- The Counter arguement.
- The only real and valid counter argument which I have managed to come to in my head is for situations like BR- and previous NOL- hell camps where TEAM A decides to 24/7 camp TEAM B into their station, and perma bubbles would be required to keep TEAM B's capitals and locals trapped. - But if I'm honest, if an entity is to take on such an enormous campaign, they should easily have the resources to field 10-20 interdictors for 5-10 minutes while new anchorable's are being deployed for the next 24hr slot. So that argument is void.
CCP if you want people to actively use the space again please take this small step to ensure people actually use their space again the way it was intended. Removing all anchored bubbles at downtime will force players to actively have to re-anchor new bubbles if they would like to keep their system on 'lockdown', there by their safety will come at a price (ISK value in this case of re-anchoring bubbles), let's not forget that this is 0.0 and safety should cost a premium It will also weed out systems that have anchored bubbles in, 'just because we can' as they will be removed at downtime.
If you'd like to see this change implemented please upvote this post or bump it to the top. I'll be posting bumps with screenshot examples of the situations i'm talking of, if you have any examples you'd like to share please feel free to do the same.
Thanks, Oli
Here's the first example. My eyes |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
750
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Posted - 2014.10.02 13:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is not what players want. Players want even more safety.
Besides, removing them at every DT is not necessary. Bubbles should, however, have a limited energy reservoir and when this reservoir depletes, they turn off. |
Man Milk
Fluoro Neuro Sponge
7
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
If only there were nullified ships available as a counter....?!? |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
The first link you posted is to a completely different idea which is over-powered, and does not address the issue of bubble spam which I am referring to. We're basically saying the same thing with the second link, but, in my opinion your suggestion would make it too easy to sustain the sizable bubble barricades that are in sections of space, (Think about it, you can just warp to the gate in an interceptor and run around on-lining them, with a max time of 5mins?) It still doesn't offer a decent equilibrium. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 15:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Man Milk wrote:If only there were nullified ships available as a counter....?!?
Thanks for the post, I did mention nullified ships in my original post, maybe you missed that section. Take a look at the screenshot I linked, let me know how useful you think an interceptor would be when you can't visibly see any of the items in a system when scouting.
Here's an alternative screenshot in case you missed the first one. Different system, different set of bubbles. |
Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
89
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 17:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Daoden wrote:Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you
OK, so using your mindset, lets look at the average roaming gang.
<10 with what, 5k dps? 200,000 HP per bubble, times by lets say 45 (the amount -visible- in the first screenshot i linked). You do the math, it would take the best part of an hour to get through that lot, with nothing to show for it at the end.
'btw' you're completely overlooking the fact that this system is being abused to cause framerate drops and client lag to deter scouts from doing their job. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2014.10.02 17:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Daoden wrote:Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you
Bubbles are often traps, but I think that the OP was referring to situations where bubbles are used in dead end pipes in successive layers. Having to jump through 3 systems, each of which is guarded by a 100km layer of bubbles on both gates and cloaked intelligence alts watching the gates is a difficult proposition for attacking industry or ratting characters. I do believe that players that organize defensive layers to protect their systems should be rewarded with some safety, just not near-complete safety.
Interceptors are a somewhat viable workaround to bubbles, but they aren't as strong as some people seem to think. They're invaluable at catching players- holding them is another matter. Rat aggro mechanics, a neut, ecm, or a flight of warriors puts a limit on how long you can hold a player while your gang catches up. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
25
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Just post your loss mail already so we can have a good lolz and forget about this eye swore of an idea. |
Iain Cariaba
419
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 19:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
The massed bubbles designed to bog down your computer is already dubbed an exploit. Just petition it and the GMs will get around to removing it once they get to it after digging through all the rest of the petitions made by people wanting the game changed to fit their play style. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
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Patty Loveless
Minute to Midnight
5
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
If only there was already three or four threads in recent memory that were about mobile disruption bubbles. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
12
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 20:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eldwinn wrote:Just post your loss mail already so we can have a good lolz and forget about this eye swore of an idea.
It's to even about dying, it's about accountability and all the other things i've mentioned. As someone stated above, it's about exploiting the current mechanic in such a way that it's almost unplayable. The post may sound bitter, but it really isn't. I'm just passionate about this idea.
I've lost ships in the past, and will loose ships in the future i'm sure - but for the most part it's due to me choosing to fight. Luckily I'm competent enough to know how to get myself out of a gate camp if I jump into one, but these bubbles are rarely camped. They are there just for the sake of stalling time and being there as they only require input in the first instance.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
826
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 21:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
It doesn't bother me too much generally by there is the odd time you run into a gate bubbled in every direction for 200-500km and you can barely see what your doing anywhere near the gate which is going a bit too far. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2827
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 23:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Patty Loveless wrote:If only there was already three or four threads in recent memory that were about mobile disruption bubbles.
While I'm not against your ideas, I fret about hurting the ability to rage cage a destroyed pos with logged off caps.
Does it take 50 large bubbles to accomplish that? |
Sigras
Conglomo
914
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 00:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oli Robbo wrote:Daoden wrote:Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you OK, so using your mindset, lets look at the average roaming gang. <10 with what, 5k dps? 200,000 HP per bubble, times by lets say 45 (the amount -visible- in the first screenshot i linked). You do the math, it would take the best part of an hour to get through that lot, with nothing to show for it at the end. Im sure you mean other than costing your enemies half a billion ISK for no risk right?
Its true, T1 bubbles should probably cost 3-4 times what they do now in order to make bubble spam like this hurt the wallet a little more, but even so, damage to your opponent's economy uncontested IS something to show for it.
Would it help your little epeen out if they gave you killmails for destroying bubbles so your killboard could look all green? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1414
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 01:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
in regards to the bubble graphics i believe CCP art team has new rendering in mind to c\vastly reduce graphical demands of them. |
Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
82
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 05:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Agreed. Bubbles are the main issue with actually getting players to want to follow me into EZ (null) sec. Think something needs to be done about them honestly. But most of the slow unintelligent dorks here will opt to keep their bubble unchanged even though it tends to only get them killed when facing competent pilots. |
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
891
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 05:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
What happened to bouncing off a celestial after spotting the bubble on dscan? The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
12
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 17:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Oli Robbo wrote:Daoden wrote:Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you OK, so using your mindset, lets look at the average roaming gang. <10 with what, 5k dps? 200,000 HP per bubble, times by lets say 45 (the amount -visible- in the first screenshot i linked). You do the math, it would take the best part of an hour to get through that lot, with nothing to show for it at the end. Im sure you mean other than costing your enemies half a billion ISK for no risk right? Its true, T1 bubbles should probably cost 3-4 times what they do now in order to make bubble spam like this hurt the wallet a little more, but even so, damage to your opponent's economy uncontested IS something to show for it. Would it help your little epeen out if they gave you killmails for destroying bubbles so your killboard could look all green?
'no risk' - I think sitting in hostile space in among 40 odd bubbles for an hour is pretty risky don't you? It's not about killmails, I'm completely fine with no kill-mails being generated to be honest. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
12
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 17:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:What happened to bouncing off a celestial after spotting the bubble on dscan?
That doesn't work in this instance, due to the amount of bubbles. It also doesn't work if you're jumping into the system also. I should probably stress this isn't to do with a couple of bubbles, I'm talking about the large masses of bubbles that you find. I recently had them either side of a gate, for 7 systems straight on the in and out gates. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 19:30:58 -
[21] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:What happened to bouncing off a celestial after spotting the bubble on dscan?
As per the post above mine doesn't really help much when someone has put 30+ bubbles on the gate and while its not a completely common occurrence its not completely uncommon either - 40 jumps through null the other day I encountered 2 gates with more than 1-2 bubbles on grid with the gate - one which was literally bubbled for over 200km in every direction and the other had a line of bubbles to around 200km off the gate in the direction of the other gate in the system. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
730
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 20:47:34 -
[22] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Oli Robbo wrote:Daoden wrote:Bubbles are traps, traps are allowed in eve.
PS: you can shoot the anchorable bubbles btw if you really want to get rid of them rather then asking CCP to do that job for you OK, so using your mindset, lets look at the average roaming gang. <10 with what, 5k dps? 200,000 HP per bubble, times by lets say 45 (the amount -visible- in the first screenshot i linked). You do the math, it would take the best part of an hour to get through that lot, with nothing to show for it at the end. Im sure you mean other than costing your enemies half a billion ISK for no risk right? Its true, T1 bubbles should probably cost 3-4 times what they do now in order to make bubble spam like this hurt the wallet a little more, but even so, damage to your opponent's economy uncontested IS something to show for it. Would it help your little epeen out if they gave you killmails for destroying bubbles so your killboard could look all green? When bubble material prices spiked accidentally (much sad) with either Kronos or Crius (I forget) I was happy. Exploit-level bubble spam is just that. Exploits to be reported and move on. Otherwise, I think bubble use is an acceptable strategy BUT they should cost more than they do now to hamper the "I'll throw 50+ bubbles out for virtually assured safety at low low low expense".
Raise the build cost on anchorable bubbles so that they aren't dropped with wild abandon and things will sort themselves out. I'd even happily shoot them at that point (killmail or not) because I'd know that someone was feeling the pinch at replacement costs.
That said OP: I'd say no to automagically clearing bubbles at downtime (for several reasons). I'll also say that the idea regarding the faction anchorable bubbles cancelling nullification is a bad idea and completely breaks an intended game design feature (interdiction nullification) without any pilot interaction/presence at all.
I'm right behind you
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Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
3796
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Posted - 2014.10.03 20:59:31 -
[23] - Quote
TL;DR
I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Demon your parents warned you about.
||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Tug-class Vessel||
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11141
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Posted - 2014.10.03 21:17:50 -
[24] - Quote
Regarding the visuals ...
CCP recently found out that metaballs exist, a cool visual effect that got discovered around three decades ago and not only doesn't cost a lot of horsepower, but also solves the issue of crappy looking, overlapping bubbles.
*kinks*
Sparkles of cinnamon ...
... surrounded by hot chocolate ............ ;)
I can see you reading this ... and you like it!
I saw a man upon the stair, a little man who wasn't there
I saw the man again today ... Geee, I wished he'd go away.
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DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.10.03 21:29:21 -
[25] - Quote
I would like to see something new done with Bubbles. The new idea involves creating a small emitter type device that could be deployed in an asteroid belt or other location. When any ship comes within a certain range the device activates and traps the ship like a normal bubble does. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.10.04 17:29:02 -
[26] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:TL;DR
TL:DR
It's no secret that in some cases bubbles are being deployed in such a way to abuse their intended use, which does not promote an active play-style, accountability and upsets the risk/reward ratio. The current petition system is in-effective at resolving the issue to do the time / effort required on both the user and CCP to the extent that hardly anyone reports the cases of extensive bubble spam.
I've posted a suggestion to a new mechanic to try and resolve this, some of the finer points can re tweaked to assist with cases such as r4pe-caging a POS, but the general idea is to removed anchored bubbles at server restart.
Example |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
13
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Posted - 2014.10.05 13:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
To the top. |
Oli Robbo
Entity. The Camel Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.10.05 13:26:35 -
[28] - Quote
To the top. |
Draahk Chimera
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
33
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 13:35:32 -
[29] - Quote
"Other players should always be the greatest danger in un-secure space". A direct qoute from CCP. Having hellbubbled gates, along with using local chat as an intel-tool, is a counter to incoming dangers that do not require teamwork. Local is a horse that has been flogged to death hundreds of times during my time in EVE and I have no confidence in that ever getting fixed. Hellbubbles, however, is more recent and I hope might get adressed during the nullsec rebalance. I would like to go much further then the op and suggest the following:
1. Make anchorable bubbles one-shot items.
2. Give them a 2 hour lifespan.
404 - Image not found
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Mark Hadden
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
34
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Posted - 2014.10.23 13:42:39 -
[30] - Quote
bubbles can be annoying, in certain cases when they made me butthurt I grabbed a bomber (+ a covert hauler full of ammo) and cleared off 30-40 large bubbles, 2 times. The bear who tried to secure his ratting cave didnt bother to put them up for the 3rd time and quit/changed location at some point.
Bubbles in high numbers cost a decent amount of ISK but removing them doesnt cost virtually anything, besides of your time and dedication. |
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