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jumper6
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.25 20:17:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Zaldiri You realise if you ask to many questions like this CCP dump you in jove space.
hahahahahaha, dunno why but that made me lol
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Tallin Rose
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:23:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 25/08/2006 12:39:46 Look ma! I'm in yet another Physic related propulsion thread!
Dont get me wrong now, I'd love fully realistic physics in EVE. I'd love to be able to launch my ship into an asteroid belt at near light speed, see a miner (obviously view and targeting ranges would need to be vastly improved), start firing off my autocannons at several thousand kilometres, scream past the miner within a few thousand metres and be rewarded as my shells, also travelling at near light speed (as they were fired from an object at that speed, ie, my ship) rip the miners ship to ribbons due to sheer insane kinetic force....then watch as the miners ship, now in several pieces vents gasses into space, sending up sheets of flame, as I slowly bring my ship about to return in a weeks time for the can.
Obviously, not possible....but all the same, I'd love it.
As fun as that sounds it would be pretty much impossible to do. After you fire your auto-cannon rounds you would have to accelerate to a high enough speed to pass the rounds before they strike the target. Figure the muzzle velocity of an auto-cannon is around 600 meters per second. Assuming you can accelerate at a little more than 5 G's you will accelerate at 50 meters per second per second and it will take 80 seconds for you to catch up to the rounds from the auto-cannon. In 80 seconds the round will travel 160km + your initial velocity in meters per second times 80. The largest exhumer has a signature radius of 150m. At 160 km your auto-cannon couldn't deviate any more than .05 degrees or you would miss. Recoil alone would probably be more than enough to cause that much of a deviation.
All I can figure is that ships in Eve must use some sort of reactionless drive which accounts for their odd behavior.
If they didn't and a ship was capable of providing thrust indefinitely through a mechanism such as a Bussard ramjet then other factors would limit its top speed. As many people have pointed out as an object moves faster its mass increases. This will not provide a limit as some people claim because this would be countered, I believe, by the fact that the reactant mass increases as well. At the same time, however, there is also a time dilation effect. While the thrust might remain constant to the passengers on board to the people outside the ship it would be seen to provide less and less thrust as its seconds stretch longer and longer.
Of course these effects only become significant as you approach a substantial portion of the speed of light. Long before that occurs you will have friction slowing the ship down. Even at only 1% of the speed of light you are travelling at about 3000 km per second or around 9000 times the speed of sound on Earth. Space is not a perfect vacuum and since drag increases at the square of the speed the effects of drag would probably not be insignificant at that point.
None of which really matters to our ships in Eve, but is interesting (at least to me) to think about.
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Preliator
Caldari The Wolves' Pack
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:37:00 -
[63]
Ah but eve ships have graviton manipulation systems to steer and slow ships down!...Honest!
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Tallin Rose
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:42:00 -
[64]
Actually after crunching a few more numbers I have to move my estimate from 'pretty much impossible' to simply 'highly improbable'. .05 degrees of variation is roughly the equivalent of shooting out the center diamond of a card at 30 meters.
Of course this is also predicated on sustaining 5 G's of force for about a minute and a half which even in a modern G suit would be pretty tough (fighter pilots sustain up to around 7.5 G's of force but not for durations spanning more than perhaps a dozen seconds). Additionally the figures have you flying past just as the rounds hit rather than before and ignores the fact that you will go screaming past the target at least 160km before you can turn around to head back (so you won't really get to see the boom).
I need to find something more constructive to do with my time.
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Tallin Rose
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:43:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Preliator Ah but eve ships have graviton manipulation systems to steer and slow ships down!...Honest!
Yeah, but everyone knows that graviton drives have a maximum velocity and won't let you outrun shells from an auto-cannon.
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Tallin Rose
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:49:00 -
[66]
Glargh! I messed up my numbers. I had to convert some data from feet to meters and then accidentlly used the unconverted number. In 80 seconds you would only have to travel 48 km, not 160. I should have caught that.
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Silver Night
Caldari Intergalactic Combined Technologies THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.08.26 01:06:00 -
[67]
I figure, your velocity is artificially limited, because hte ship designers knew you would be changing direction. Say you get up to 600km/s...
Well, then you ahve to accelerate back up to 600km/s jsut to get you to a relative velocity of 0, going the other way. Then you ahve to make it all the way back. Basically, tis so that you can turn. Otherwise, things would jsut get ugly. --------------
Director. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
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Qutsemnie
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.26 02:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Qutsemnie on 26/08/2006 02:54:16 You can accelerate indefinately by throwing rocks off the back of your ships with your own arm. The center of mass for a system cannot be changed by internal forces. Its right there in like your very first physics book =) The sense of where you went wrong with the thruster picture is that YOU are ALWAYS AT REST relative to your thruster. Space has no perfect inertia frame. Velocity is always movement relative to something else. Changing your velocity is as simple as picking a new something else. Your velocity is at one time 0, 1/4C and 1/2C and your thruster doesnt stop working because you changed the view point of relative to what... I mean you can be at rest relative to the center of the earth and at massive speed relative to another galatic core. Your thruster doesnt depend on where you put your eyes does it?
So how does it all fit together? Well relative to you everytime you throw a rock off the back of your space ship you continue to move. You throw the first rock off and your center of mass is changed. The rock goes backwards off into space. Now you think im at 0 again. And you pick up another rock and you throw it off the back off the ship and your center of mass is changed again. But now you are moving away from the first rock at nearly twice the rate you were before. Atleast for rocks 1 and 2. But what happens as the number of rocks gets huge is that each rock appears to accelerate you away from the first rock for a smaller and smaller amount. However to you every rock will also seem to accelerate you the same amount. You throw the first rock and measure how far away you are from the first rock 10 seconds later and its the same as throwing the 1 billionith rock and waiting to see how far you are from the 1 billionith rock 10 seconds later. [ignore the obvious loss of mass effects...]Its always the same!
Its your velocity change relative to the first rock that gets smaller and smaller however it never vanishes as it has to stay consistant with the fact that the nth rock accelerates the ship relative to the launched rock the same as the 1st rock.
Now this is made possible by various dilation effects of space and time at large velocities.
I think theres also an interesting effect where the observed pace of throwing the rocks changes depending on your viewpoint =)
But its absolutely wrong to think that there is some sort of velocity limit to a rocket. You could move a mass at 1 m/s out the back of your space ship and it would still accelerate you past 1 m/s. When rockets to outside the atmosphere first became feasible concerns like this and concerns about what does a thruster "push agianst" were circulated.
The key to understanding all of it is the line in your very first physics book about "For any closed system, no internal force can change that systems center of mass"
And from that line does all understanding about thrust in space flow. And you might wonder whats the big deal about faster thrust then? The mass gets further away in a shorter time. Thats it. If the mass ejected behind you gets very far away very fast then the center of mass for the entire system moves forward faster. Its that simple.
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Leto Nyx
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Posted - 2006.08.26 13:55:00 -
[69]
For all those who think you can accelerate indefinitely: I respect your opinion, but I'm inclined to side with Einstein on this one, until one of you proves him wrong
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Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude? |
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