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creed6423 Igunen
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 20:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Like the title said I've been playing eve for not a long time(played for about 2 months and now came back) I think i know a good deal about the game and i love it alot . My only query is that will new players ever be able to come up to equal footing as a vet player? I mean everytime i engage someone i always die in FW duels etc and the characters aren't usually years older but just a few months i have frigs on dps of 148 about there and still loose in a frig to frig combat......idk how? Any tips before i burn through all my isk |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
203
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 21:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Short answer is yes.
Skills max out at 5 and there is a shockingly small group that affect your ship in combat.
I suspect you are running into the player skill gap as opposed to the skill point gap. In frig combat, skill points make up only a fraction of your victory chances. Closing that player gap is possible but requires practice. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6315
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 21:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Copy-pasting my skillpoint spiel.
How does the skillpoint system work?
- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower tier skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills.
- (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.
Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills. Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.
- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about **80 to 90%** of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5.
- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster).
Example: I personally only have the T2 weapon specializations at level 4. That puts me at a 2% disadvantage in damage against someone who has the same skill(s) at level 5 (assuming we are both using the same ship with the same fit)
- Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another.
Example: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc.
- High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. It simply gives a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost.
Ex1: A basic T1 Adaptive Armor Plating gives ~10% omni-resistance to damage for only a hundred thousand ISK... a T2 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~15% omni resistance to damage for 1 million ISK... a "deadpsace" Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~19% omni resistance to damage for 15 to 20 million ISK.
Ex2: A group of three or four T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing. https://zkillboard.com/kill/39793460/ (Condors caught me and ground me down... I only had time to kill one of them) https://zkillboard.com/kill/38239838/ (all the Breechers in this KM were T1 fit... I could only kill two of them before being nuked)
What does this all mean?
- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than "get enough skillpoints, open window, click, press F1- F9." There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc).
- part of the idea behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment utilize. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.
- once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of mostly focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly. You can find these skills in the "Engineering" section of your character skillsheet.
- Just because you are limited in what you can do (as a newbie) it does not mean that your contribution to a team is meaningless and/or without weight. Being a "tackler" or cheapo Ewar-support in PvP might indeed be suicide if you have limited skills and knowledge... but even half-success can mean the difference between catching or losing a target... everyone escaping a bad situation or dying in a fire. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Gregor Parud
706
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 21:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
PVP hardly ever is about who does 5% more dps than the other, or has 5% more HP or is 5% faster. PVP in EVE is about countering; shipfit A is a good counter to shipfit B and as such he'll probably win (assuming similar piloting skills). The trick is to understand what the different ship fits are, which ship fit counters which and having good enough piloting skills. None of those variables have anything to do with skill points, they are result if you having put in a lot of brain effort and practising to figure that stuff out.
It COULD also be affected by the amount of time you played this game but since so many people are incapable and/or unwilling to put in that brain effort, it doesn't take that much to actually surpass them in that respect. And then you may get to the point where you can create, affect a scenario that favours you. This is a result of knowledge, intel and quite probably patience. It has, again, nothing to do with skill points.
It just takes effort, and with time you'll get more and more SP to back your knowledge and experience so you can do more/different things. |
Azda Ja
BUMP POW
303
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 23:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia explains this far better than I could. Read this and don't worry about "catching up".
http://blog.beyondreality.se/EVE-Skills-3-Catching-up
Also, just in case you aren't sure what to train, especially since it appears that you're interested in PvP, take a look at the OTHER Tippia blog post that I spam this forum with. It's a great skill plan to get started with; you're already a few months in, and have probably trained a lot of these, but it may be worth taking a look at too, you never know if you missed a core skill here or there.
http://blog.beyondreality.se/Newbie-skill-plan-2 "I only lose ships when I fly with Azda." - Barry Cuttlefish |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
9050
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 00:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
No you will never be on a truly equal footing with an older player for two reasons: they probably have more experience than you and they have more sp than you. Like some have said they might just have sp in other areas and are trying something out something new, but if they are specialized in the same thing you are they will have a distinct advantage over a two month old player. It's easy enough for older players to say that the 5% difference doesn't mean anything but the truth is that there are multiple 5% differences here and there and they add up to quite a bit of difference. Unless you have trained for several more months to get all of those support skills to 5 then you will be at a distinct disadvantage.
Having said that, there is definitely something to be said for relative player skill. Going out and actively participating in your chosen profession, pvp in your case, is the only way to develop experience and skill. From the sounds of it that's exactly what you're doing and it will pay off in the long run. Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they don't make mistakes and when you have the experience to capitalize on those you can win fights that would otherwise be hopeless. Just remember that no matter how high the percentage difference between any two ships is you still have to apply is correctly in order for it to have any impact on an actual fight. |
Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
372
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 01:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
The above posts definitely say all you need to know about this issue.
I'd add that even the player skill discrepancy gets partially mitigated from time to time as CCP changes the ship stats and functions. The recent tiericide initiatives have completely changed 90% of the sub caps in the game. There aren't any ships at all whose tactics and stats have remained static since I started playing. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed] |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2876
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 03:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
yes. The eve skill system allows specialization which can bring you relatively quickly on par with a 10 year old vet if you pick the specialization wisely. However the vet will always have more choices, e.g what ship to use, what fit to pick.
There are some time consuming base skills and also support skills which take some time to max out. But skilling the first 4 levels goes rather quick.
some ships require more skills then others of course - even within a class. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4693
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 08:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
creed6423 Igunen wrote:Like the title said I've been playing eve for not a long time(played for about 2 months and now came back) I think i know a good deal about the game and i love it alot . My only query is that will new players ever be able to come up to equal footing as a vet player? I mean everytime i engage someone i always die in FW duels etc and the characters aren't usually years older but just a few months i have frigs on dps of 148 about there and still loose in a frig to frig combat......idk how? Any tips before i burn through all my isk
Yes.
Skills cap at level 5, and at level 4 you are 90+% compared to a level 5.
Only limited amount of skills apply to a ship. Your frigate related skill dont apply to your cruiser, your BS skills dont apply to your frigate.
But above all....
EVE is not about SP, but about player skill.
A player of 2 months that learned about tactics, his ships strengths and weaknesses and what he should engage and what not WILL always win over someone who has 100mil SP but never played the game. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
217
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 17:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Basically after just a year and change, you can fly specialized ships with perfect skills. That includes all relevant skills, tanking, capacitor, all of it.
Drone ships might take closer to 2 years, more skills, but a gun cruiser can be trained to all V in that amount of time if specialized.
In terms of *actual* skill, it depends how fast you learn. I'd say PVPing for a year is enough time - as a good learner - to match up with most vets. Especially F1 jockeys in null, who are clueless without their favorite FC. Hey guys. |
|
creed6423 Igunen
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 22:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
OK thanks a lot for the feedback guys I think I need more patience knowledge and experience by reading from your replies. I feel much better now thanks for the info all |
creed6423 Igunen
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 22:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Copy-pasting my skillpoint spiel. How does the skillpoint system work?- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower tier skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills. - (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time. Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills. Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level. - Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about **80 to 90%** of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5. - Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster). Example: I personally have the T2 weapon specializations at level 4. That puts me at a 2% disadvantage in damage against someone who has the same skill(s) at level 5 (assuming we are both using the same ship with the same fit) - Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another. Example: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc. - High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. It simply gives a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost. Ex1: A basic T1 Adaptive Armor Plating gives ~10% omni-resistance to damage for only a hundred thousand ISK... a T2 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~15% omni resistance to damage for 1 million ISK... a "deadpsace" Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~19% omni resistance to damage for 15 to 20 million ISK. Ex2: A group of three or four T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing. https://zkillboard.com/kill/39793460/ (Condors caught me and ground me down... I only had time to kill one of them) https://zkillboard.com/kill/38239838/ (all the Breechers in this KM were T1 fit... I could only kill two of them before being nuked) What does this all mean?- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than "get enough skillpoints, open window, click, press F1- F9." There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc). - part of the idea behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment utilize. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar. - once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of mostly focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly. You can find these skills in the "Engineering" section of your character skillsheet. - Just because you are limited in what you can do (as a newbie) it does not mean that your contribution to a team is meaningless and/or without weight. Being a "tackler" or cheapo Ewar-support in PvP might indeed be suicide if you have limited skills and knowledge... but even half-success can mean the difference between catching or losing a target... everyone escaping a bad situation or dying in a fire.
Ahhh I see thanks a lot bro that was a real eye opener
|
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
474
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 22:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yes.
Quantity over quality - "bring friends" and "stick together".
5 vets with over 100 mill SP each will run from 50 "newbies" with 5 mill SP each - or die. That's not a joke, that's a fact. Half the SP but 10 times the numbers; it's a no win situation for the vets.
Why do you think you read gripes about blobbing to win? It's because bringing more will offset vastly more SP per char. |
creed6423 Igunen
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 00:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Copy-pasting my skillpoint spiel. How does the skillpoint system work?- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower tier skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills. - (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time. Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills. Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level. - Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about **80 to 90%** of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5. - Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster). Example: I personally have the T2 weapon specializations at level 4. That puts me at a 2% disadvantage in damage against someone who has the same skill(s) at level 5 (assuming we are both using the same ship with the same fit) - Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another. Example: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc. - High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. It simply gives a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost. Ex1: A basic T1 Adaptive Armor Plating gives ~10% omni-resistance to damage for only a hundred thousand ISK... a T2 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~15% omni resistance to damage for 1 million ISK... a "deadpsace" Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~19% omni resistance to damage for 15 to 20 million ISK. Ex2: A group of three or four T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing. https://zkillboard.com/kill/39793460/ (Condors caught me and ground me down... I only had time to kill one of them) https://zkillboard.com/kill/38239838/ (all the Breechers in this KM were T1 fit... I could only kill two of them before being nuked) What does this all mean?- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than "get enough skillpoints, open window, click, press F1- F9." There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc). - part of the idea behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment utilize. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar. - once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of mostly focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly. You can find these skills in the "Engineering" section of your character skillsheet. - Just because you are limited in what you can do (as a newbie) it does not mean that your contribution to a team is meaningless and/or without weight. Being a "tackler" or cheapo Ewar-support in PvP might indeed be suicide if you have limited skills and knowledge... but even half-success can mean the difference between catching or losing a target... everyone escaping a bad situation or dying in a fire.
Ahhh I see thanks a lot bro that was a real eye opener
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6330
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 04:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Final word of advice from me: treat EVE as a "process game"... with more elements of poker, chess, and Starcraft than Jenga, Twister, or Call-of-Duty.
Your ability to outthink and talk to people carry more weight than anything else here. And there is no "end" even when you have reached the pinnacle of power. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4253
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 04:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Performance vs. flexibility. There are no certain paths in EVE. The choice is up to you.
Example: Flexibility over performance.
Without using attribute implants, and without an attribute remap (i.e. will likely take less time than shown): * Time to train all races of frigate / destroyer / cruiser / battlecruiser / battleship to level 3: 17d 20h 52s * Time to train small / medium / large / hybrid / laser / projectile turrets & support skills to level 3: 13d 11h 39m 30s * Time to train rockets / heavy assault / torpedoes / light / heavy / cruise missiles & support skills to level 3: 12d 23h 6m 40s Of course you'll want other skills to fit rigs, defences, drones, and such.
My point really is that basic training really doesn't take that long. Now if one spent all that time training for just one ship, one could be very skilled at it in relatively short amount of time.
Also, my Caldari Industrial skill at level 5 gives me no advantage at all when I'm piloting any combat ship.
Trivia: * Small-sized hulls (includes frigates and destroyers) are by far the most cost-effective vs. training time and fun-factor. * Medium-sized hulls comprise the vast majority of all available ships in EVE. Some players never bother to train beyond them.
|
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4696
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 08:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Final word of advice from me: treat EVE as a "process game"... with more elements of poker, chess, and Starcraft than Jenga, Twister, or Call-of-Duty.
Your ability to outthink and talk to people carry more weight than anything else here. And there is no "end" even when you have reached the pinnacle of power.
EVE needs more twister...in CQ.
And the ability to invite friends over and have a drink and play said Twister while drunk.. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 12:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Join a corp and fly in fleets. Look how little it takes to train caldari frigate to V, ECM to 4s, and then some support/engi/navigation skills to IV. In around a week or around 2 weeks you could be sitting in a griffin.
And this ship scares the ****** out of everyone. You have no idea how often a fight is a no-go only because there's a possibility a griffin will be involved.
As for one vs one combat - I started to kill stuff after a month of trying. Their superior skills still show after a year but rarely. Eve is a game of rock-paper-scissor when it comes to combat, and from what I see friaget pvp depends on what you know about your enemy and what the enemy knows about you. No matter the skill point an AB fitted merlin cannot hope to attack a well deployed MWD fitted condor and hope to win. If it does - then the guy has links and implants and all the talk is irrelevant :P "NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe |
Dwissi
Miners Delight
35
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 12:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Extend your gameplay to more than just 'pew' - thats what seperates the old player from a new one. Understanding how different mechanics play into or against each other is where the main difference is. Thats all meta gaming and not so much skill based at all. There are many players who ignore that part and will continue to feel 'noobish' even after a much longer time in-game than yourself. Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins Before someone complains again: grrr everyone |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
327
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 14:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
We've had 3 month old toons get hundreds of kills in a month with dozens of solo kills. It can be done. BLFOX is currently recruiting |
|
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
326
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 21:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Yes.
Quantity over quality - "bring friends" and "stick together".
5 vets with over 100 mill SP each will run from 50 "newbies" with 5 mill SP each - or die. That's not a joke, that's a fact. Half the SP but 10 times the numbers; it's a no win situation for the vets.
Why do you think you read gripes about blobbing to win? It's because bringing more will offset vastly more SP per char.
However sometimes there are absolute f*ck ups such as Ishtar snipe fleet warping on too close to a domi fleet ... I still giggle at the stunned silence in vent after our fleet had heard the news that our chosen "ally" had lost a 100 Ishtars in 5minutes flat and that thus our support wing en route to system 5j away was no longer needed. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
202
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 17:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
skills and skill often get confused in this game. If you are talking strictly skill points the most certainly yes if you are talking player skill then most likely no.
There are plenty of vets out there that have started newer toons and gone around and killed years old players on toons a couple months old but you are talking about a person that's been playing the game for a long time.
Another thing that you want to get out of your mind in eve is the concept of a fair fight. "fair fights" are almost non-existent in eve nor are they something that are desirable. This game is all about turning the odds in your favor. There is no level cap in this game there is no queueable PvP there are no 10 v 10 or 40 v 40 battlegrounds of players of the same "level" or anything like that in this game.
I'm not much of a PvPer but I know enough about it to know that if you want to win it's all about gaining the upper hand. You can do that with shear numbers like the blob concept or with knowlege or skill or intelligence (meaning the data kind not the brain kind).
Another thing to keep in mind is you can play this game for years and never learn to PvP or you can learn how to PvP well in a short amount of time. It's all about practice and focus. There are plenty of tutorials and videos and blogs and such out there to help with this as well as twitch streamers. Just get out there and do it and keep in mind you learn nothing when everything goes right. Experience is usually gained from screwing up. With every loss you'll become a better PvPer. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
99
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 18:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
another example for you.
I have 95m SP. started in the beta - played religiously at release and then off and on for last 7 years .. or so ..
I have at least 20m SP (maybe more) in things that would be of no use in combat .. industrial skills. I have science skils, corp management skills .. then there are skill in Carriers and Fighters and Jump navigation skills .. all not used in day to day fighting.
In neglected PvP skills (in the offence department) for years. i n pvp io flew support .. cloaky scout, ECM, damps, tackle, interdictor, prober etc..
In never practiced much straight up 1v1 shoot you in the face PvP.
There is no doubt in my mind that if i went up against someone in RvB in a one on one frig fight I would lose. I am probably wrong and underselling my own pvp skills .. i must know some stuff after all this time .. but i bet a good player who knew their own ship with a few mil SP might be able to take me - because ship type matters, position, speed, weapon, ammo, transversal, yada yada all matter and there is no reason a smart person who read, watched and listend might not be able to fly better than me .. specially if i rested my laurels on my superior SP.
After 4 months 2 players, one old and one new, could be flying near identical fit frigs .. and who wins could be more about slightly bad choices early in the fight that doom one .. turning to fast and loosing speed at a critical moment, forgeting to turn somethign on or off, overheating at the wrong time .. who knows ..
What i guess is true though .. is that a really good player, with a really good ship, good mods, and good SP is scarry ..
But then as people have mentioned .. thats when you get 3-5 friends .. and go turn his shinney into tears. History is the study of change. |
Tadeshi Ichikaze
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.10.18 13:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Time.
At two months you don't know anything - so the gap between you and someone who has a few months on you may be huge.
Say you have two months and they have four. They have twice your experience.
Four years from now - they could still have two more months experience than you do - but out of four years that will not matter that much.
As to veterans that have four years on you now - that is going to take a lot longer to catch up to but there is a point of diminishing returns both in skill points and experience with the game. The skill points get harder to come by as you move up a skill ladder and the things you continue to learn become more refinements on your experience than massive revelations.
So - no - you're not ever going to "catch up" with someone who started playing four years ago but it will matter less and less.
What matters more than experience though - is a players ability. Some people are just better players than other people. Put simply - a person who is an idiot, with four years experience - will probably still be an idiot when they have six. A stupid person may get a lot of mileage out of their relative experience vs. a newer player - but eventually, the newer player will become a veteran themselves and be able to out play the stupid person.
Now - the flip side of that - is people who are really good players who have been playing a really long time - those people are going to have a decided advantage over most of the other people playing the game. Still - they are only one person. If they are in command of a unit of other players, their wisdom, knowledge and experience can have a much more profound effect than if they were just by themselves. Here - leadership skills - come to matter and some people are simply better leaders than others.
So - no - your probably not going to "catch up" with someone who has vastly more time in game than you do. The thing is - there is an attrition to game players. Most of the people who were playing EVE in 2003 - aren't playing any more. Once you've been playing a good long time yourself - then you'll be someone who has vastly more experience than all the new players coming along.
To sum up:
1) The difference between you and someone just ahead of you now will matter less and less as time goes by. 2) Eventually, innate ability comes to matter more than skill points or experience. 3) Some people you will never catch up to, though you can close the gap - but then there will be all those people who came along after you did that you have an advantage over and fewer and fewer older players who are still playing the game.
. . .
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1699
|
Posted - 2014.10.18 15:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
The last thing to remember is that it is not all SP
There is the metagame where who YOU are (or at least who you present to be) is as powerful or influencing as you manage to make it. Although a lot of the game is run by the 'old boys' network there are always up anc coming stars in the political scene.
Be it corp, alliance, FC;ing or a public fleet you need to remember that your reputation is something that you build as carefully as your skill queue. (If you go for that aspect of the game)
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Velarra
324
|
Posted - 2014.10.18 20:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Most of the traditional (and generally correct) perspectives and views on your inquiry have been shared. Yet a couple small thoughts:
People do quit permanently. People take vacations from the game, dropping their subscription (and there by training regimen). Occasionally these breaks will last a few years. Some who begin to loathe their total clone replacement costs choose to make 2nd characters that are built for certain types of low SP game-play, particularly in characters that will have a fixed & locked set of skills.
If anything, after a certain point SP is just a key to different game-play styles. As well as occasionally a reason to not undock (if your clone with a pair of standard implants is 80m isk to replace, and your frigate 3 million isk, how frequently do you want to get caught in a bubble and lose both?).
End of the day, - just play, figure out what you enjoy doing and get the core skills to support that. If you have the core skills for that game play? Sure, take them to 5. But do so realizing skills aren't everything, they're just part of the picture. |
Verdis deMosays
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
62
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 16:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Good advice in this thread.
Here's an example of eve gameplay at its finest though: Back when I was in the CFC, we got deployed to the south, and in typical fashion, I brought my Wolf assault frigate down there. An artillery wolf does horrible things to any small ship it catches, so knowing there had been a lot of solo scouts, I set out on patrol in the area. 2 jumps out I had a run in with an amarrian AF near a gate. Circling, mwding and pointing ensued. As he was pulse fit, he tried to get close, and I tried to keep range. After a while, we traded lol, gf and both disengaged, since we had equal resists to each other, and couldn't get in our preferred firing ranges.
The point is that regardless of sp, skill or other factors we knew this match wasn't one either would win, so we saved the time, and went to search for other avenues of destruction. Know your ships, know your capabilities, and don't be afraid to pass on a fight you can't win.
Time and experience will give you more than 150mil sp will. Go get them in cheap stuff, and when your sp catches up to your skill, you will be unstoppable in your shiny ships.
Except against Ishtar blobs. **** Ishtar blobs :)
*helpful wormholer signing off* |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11083
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:The last thing to remember is that it is not all SP
There is the metagame where who YOU are (or at least who you present to be) is as powerful or influencing as you manage to make it. Although a lot of the game is run by the 'old boys' network there are always up anc coming stars in the political scene.
Be it corp, alliance, FC;ing or a public fleet you need to remember that your reputation is something that you build as carefully as your skill queue. (If you go for that aspect of the game)
m I can confirm this totally ... ... FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE ... ... except that SP, me, is everything! ;) I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked, with sparkles of cinnamon on my skin. You are my content, my shiny content - you make me haaappy, when skies are greeeeyyy - you'll never know dear, how much I loooooove you - don't you take my content away! |
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