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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 09:58:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Wild Rho Most ships that tank tend to have fairly even levels of resistance to all 4 damage types, not just EM. On a serious tank the differences between EM/Therm and the other types is a very small % and hardly significant.
Exept this isn't true anymore. That is the whole point why people started to complain.
This *was* true with a 3 active harderner tank (kin, therm, exp) pre-RMR. But now a 2 EAN2+DC tank now outperforms a 3 active tank in *every*single*aspect.
Well, almost. There are 2 advantages of a 3 active tank, lower price (2 EAN2 and 1 good DC cost about 15-20 mil) and lower SP requirements (hull up 5 and lvl 4 in all armor comp skills). But the first advantage isn't a factor in most setups (especially t2 outfitted BSs) and the latter is insignificant, since stuff is balanced for max SP scenarios.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:22:00 -
[62]
4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:44:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi 4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lord WarATron In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%.
Well, thats a bit of an overexaggeration, at least for shieldtankers. A standart 2 invul, 1 EM setup will end up with a bit over 70% EM resistance. Still the 2nd highest resistance, though - ironically the low shield EM resistance is hurting lasers more than helping them, because people usually use an specific harderner *because* that big EM hole.
Also, thermal resists are considerably lower than EM and lasers still do a good bit of thermal, so the total damage reduction is for EAN2 armor more in the 70% area than in the 80% one. Still more than other weapons, but overexaggerating the problem is just as wrong as denying it.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Kaylana Syi 4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win?
And there you go again, pulling numbers out of a really dark hole.
Who I think is gonna win? The one with the domination webifier, that's who.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:02:00 -
[66]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
No that is not what I mean. I was referring to the Amarr combat philosophy of directness, not anything to do with damage types. In other words their ships will win a fight because they can either outgun you or out-tank you, not pull fancy trickery.
if that would actually work for most of our ships then there wouldnt be a problem.
our way of achieving this directness is to restrict ourself not only to just gank or just gank but in many cases also to just one weapon system which just so happends to be easy to counter with a non-specific tank.
if you look at crusiers for example. the maller (our top tier crusier) has no secondary weapon system at all. an enemy facing a maller will have an easy time tanking its damage and if he even manages to use "fancy trickery" (ecm or tracking disruptors for example) your damage dealing capabilities drop almost to zero. other cruisers which actually have secondary weapon systems would still have some way to get to their enemy while a maller is stuck with sitting there.
now the maller isnt all bad as it can be tanked quiet nicely. the problem there is that its not nearly good enough to give it enough time to slowly kill an equally well fitted/piloted thorax or rupture. add to that that using lasers and trying to get a really good tank doesnt work well together due to their heavy cap/fitting requirements. if you do decide to actually use cruiser sized lasers on your maller your tankability will suffer while the amount of damage gained isnt exactly great. if you decide to use frig sized lasers you have a good chance of using more cap while doing less damage at a shorter range.
the advantage the maller has in tanking isnt good enough to make up for its lack of damage and versatility.
the omen on the other hand is supposed to be our laser-gank cruiser. which in practice means that it has problems fitting heavy lasers and still have any noticable tank at all. in contrast to the maller it does get a small dronebay and a launcher though making it the more versatile of the two.
so the omen would be the cruiser that is supposed to outgun its enemies before they have a chance to kill it. only problem being that you will have a hard time taking down any armortanking ship fast enough. if you really go for gank your armor will fizzle away very quickly and if you try some sort of mixed gank/tank setup your damage output will not be good enough to do said outgunning. the best way to gank an opposing combat crusier would be to catch him afk/not paying attention and hope you can dispatch him before he knows hes under attack.
so yes..most of our ships are suited for either pure ganking or tanking. the problem being that they dont do it good enough to make up for their lack of versatility. (note: no i'm not talking about the geddon here and yes i know its a nice ships)
personally i would prefer it if omen and maller worked more like their t2 versions. with the omen being able to fit heavy lasers and still have some sort of a tank (just enough to actually let it do its ganking part for a bit longer) and the maller being good at tanking while sporting launcher hardpoints and a dronebay.
actually all our supposed tanking ships could use a boost to secondary weapons systems as tanking really good and fireing lasers at the same time doesnt work well at all.
for a nice idea on how to do this have a look at this thread: abaddon proposal
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:08:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Gariuys And there you go again, pulling numbers out of a really dark hole.
Who I think is gonna win? The one with the domination webifier, that's who.
I could turn around and say the one with the ECM Racial would win, but that is moot point. The point I was making is that the damage output is far lower that it should be. Anyhow, even if the geddon had a dom webber, his cap issues means that he cannot sustam that much dps for long without a cap booster, which in turn opens another can of worms.
If you want exact maths then check out the 63page thread where a guy took a balanced approach comparing dps output on ships and shields using standard and non-faction setups. The guy compared pre-rmr damage to post-rmr. This is the correct way to compare, and it shows a big drop in Amarr damage output.
I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:22:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
The only error is the fact you don't know how to fit an omen. I have absolutely no problems whatsoever fitting my omen w. t2 guns, missiles and drones and achieving around 400dps with em/thermal/explosive damage.
Quote: In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
Killboards aren't the definative 'final word' on things. They are statistics that can be skewed to say anything you want. The fact is that players that armor tank might be able to mitigate em but shield tankers have trouble. If you find shield tankers lacking in PvP then its the player base's fault to an extent not CCP. If you find shield tankers doing mild armor tanks with ECM loaded up then put that to the ECM thread NOT a 'amarr suck' thread. Domi's with NOS and ECM are too damn powerful... and if amarr truely is underrated its for other races opportunity cost being wack not amarr being underpowered.
Quote: So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win?
Their is plenty of oportunity for a geddon to still win in this situation. A heavy NOS, ECM drones and a similar mild tank. Problen with these forums is that everything has been fought on paper and not on the server and its pretty laughable...
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:24:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Despite being amarr specialised I've tried to avoid posting in these threads -
However - the answer is "yes, really"
DC and 2 EAN II is a very common fitting for anyone armour tanking. Especially when they have the compensation skills up. The only exception being mission runners who may tank specifically for the damage they will face.
If you are suggesting that it is not a common fit, then either you don't do much PVP or you're fighting some very odd people.
BTW Omen sucks very badly - if you can do enough damage to kill your opponent while keeping yourself alive, I'd suggest you try again with a target older than a week.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: ****c
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Despite being amarr specialised I've tried to avoid posting in these threads -
However - the answer is "yes, really"
DC and 2 EAN II is a very common fitting for anyone armour tanking. Especially when they have the compensation skills up. The only exception being mission runners who may tank specifically for the damage they will face.
If you are suggesting that it is not a common fit, then either you don't do much PVP or you're fighting some very odd people.
BTW Omen sucks very badly - if you can do enough damage to kill your opponent while keeping yourself alive, I'd suggest you try again with a target older than a week.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:49:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
snip
Good answer - I suppose if you can't think of an intelligent response, drawing a little face is your only resort.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:09:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ****c
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
snip
Good answer - I suppose if you can't think of an intelligent response, drawing a little face is your only resort.
actually I put a few faces...
and seeming as your post is basically accusing me of being narrow minded while you yourself are assuming a narrow minded perspective... what I posted actually is more relevant than any stats and numbers you could recieve.
Basically you have no imagination... and to be honest this is a worthless thread like the others that have come before it. Noone is willing to see eye to eye and the people that disagree with the OP and their supporter get dismissed as if they had not been playing the same game. There is a bit too much diversity in eve to disregard the amarr ships to the rubbish bin.
So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:13:00 -
[74]
One question for all pilot other than amarr ...
You have a ship T2 with ammo T2 and you try to break the tank of a NPC (Yes a NPC) you fire 10-20min but shield don't down. You don't have the choice to call a friend for kill this npc. He come and shoot without problem the NPC ... Or you take about 10 min for a BS NPC with a bounty of 312k ? (Zealot, conflag M, heavy pulse t2, yes and need to change 2x 4 lences for finish the plex. It's 400k lence x8 = 3m2 for only 1 plex) Try to fly in amarr ship not against blood/sansha but against serpentis/angel/guristas/... After, you come here and you can add post.
And one thing only ... See the price of ubber named turret laser. 4m for a mega beam modulated !!! Yes tachyon is expensive because the aurora L and turret is usable in PvP but before the price was around 7m !
Since 3 years the tayons are not usable !!! See the patch note ... One for reduce CPU, another for reduce PW and finally another for give a little dmg !
1% between the MEGA BEAM and TACHYON since 3 years ! No, I'm sorry but all turrets need change. Radio L with the alone ammo with only 1 DAMAGE !
Fitt a megathron with med turret, it's our life in amarr ship with large turret.
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Kejsar Brutus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:17:00 -
[75]
As someone who's been flying amarr since day one, and who is still a newb at this game, can't fly T2 or use T2 guns, don't have alot of great gunnery skills and so forth and so on, I can honestly say Amarr (in my POV) only have two minor issues.
1. Lower the fitting requirements of lasers a little. Needn't be much, just a little, but as people have mentioned, fitting a full rack of say Tachyon's on a BS or heck, even heavy pulse's (medium guns) on an omen can be quite hard. Very hard. It's not fun when you have to have either a) a gazillion of skills or b) EG upgrades in your lows to fit a decent gunrack.
2. Lower the cap cost for activation just a little. Not much, just a little. Say... 10%? 15 perhaps? That'd make a world of difference when you're trying to sustain that fabled amarr tank, whilst still not making the guns overpowered.
Damage is fine as is. I haven't ever had any real gripes with only having EM / Therm damage as our guns do have nice damage and ROF. It's just that it can be a bit hard to fit and use the guns themselves.
Minmatar ships make chopsticks look like a technological marvel. |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:25:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:27:00 -
[77]
And what use would grid upgrade modules have if noone would need them to fit their setup.... or co-pros for that matter, since several minnie and caldari ships need those..... and gallente ones as well at times or both. Since if you remove one fitting requirement you should remove the other as well... at that note, lets remove all fitting requirements, and all lesser guns. Options are bad. Creativity and brain usage are bad... especially for amarr.
And arma needs injector.... OMFT... so does the damn megathron doing 1200dps... your points are all completely and totally moot. You have no points. You've got made up statistics, bad comparisons, and sucky setups to prove ships suck...
God I even miss Meridius. Atleast he managed to get most of his facts right.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
It's a standard armor tank for BS with 4-5 low slots devoted to their armor tank ( depends on amount of reppers ). Not exactly everybody that is. And then it still only applies to those with high mechanics skills.
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Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:34:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kasak Black on 16/08/2006 12:35:09 I feel Ammarian pilots (myself been one of them) are upset with the larger Ammar ships, especially the Apoc and Geddon is because those ships lack as much flexability as other races.
Ammar BS's are either Tank and do **** poor damage, or Gank and no tank. Also, Ammar are good at some things and great at nothing.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Warnings One question for all pilot other than amarr ...
You have a ship T2 with ammo T2 and you try to break the tank of a NPC (Yes a NPC) you fire 10-20min but shield don't down. You don't have the choice to call a friend for kill this npc. He come and shoot without problem the NPC ... Or you take about 10 min for a BS NPC with a bounty of 312k ? (Zealot, conflag M, heavy pulse t2, yes and need to change 2x 4 lences for finish the plex. It's 400k lence x8 = 3m2 for only 1 plex) Try to fly in amarr ship not against blood/sansha but against serpentis/angel/guristas/... After, you come here and you can add post.
And one thing only ... See the price of ubber named turret laser. 4m for a mega beam modulated !!! Yes tachyon is expensive because the aurora L and turret is usable in PvP but before the price was around 7m !
Since 3 years the tayons are not usable !!! See the patch note ... One for reduce CPU, another for reduce PW and finally another for give a little dmg !
1% between the MEGA BEAM and TACHYON since 3 years ! No, I'm sorry but all turrets need change. Radio L with the alone ammo with only 1 DAMAGE !
Fitt a megathron with med turret, it's our life in amarr ship with large turret.
sorry but tachs are not useless... laser prices are deflated because sansha space is riddled with NPCers. I myself supply 100's of millions in modulated lasers to the domain market.
one of the 'few' standing things that 'need' to be reviewed are small laser pg cost.
If you want to bring NPCing into EVE then I will have to point you to the PvE logic that dictates each race is given an NPC faction that best suits its own damage type. There is no reason why amarr whould get more than 2 NPC factions. Especially since those NPCs drop the most valuabel loot in the game for refines AND you don't need ammo vs them.
Do you really want to walk into a debate without ammunition to your argument... well atleast you have the amarr spirit for no ammo use down... get a clue next.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kasak Black Edited by: Kasak Black on 16/08/2006 12:35:09 I feel Ammarian pilots (myself been one of them) are upset with the larger Ammar ships, especially the Apoc and Geddon is because those ships lack as much flexability as other races.
Ammar BS's are either Tank and do **** poor damage, or Gank and no tank. Also, Ammar are good at some things and great at nothing.
Geddon has little flexibility in it's mids.. However it's drone bay, and nice selection of highs and lows provide a lot of flexibility in the tank/gank area.
Apoc has it's usses as well, it's a good grid heavy ship. With the interesting plus that it can use all guns equally well/bad Since it gets no damage related bonus to lasers. Making for some nasty suprises.
If flexibility in the mids you want, wrong race flying you are. This should have been clear when you started training for them.
amarr are gank/tank, with a sprinkling of nos and drones. If that's not your style. FLY SOMETHING ELSE...
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
I'd like to know why you think they are... since your only so called proof are kill boards which cannot realistically be used as exact data.
NOR can you tell me why you should be entitled to targets of opportunity that tank what you don't fire so that you can easily have battles in your favor.
Maybe you and all the goddamn whiners should start making decisions about where you pvp based on what targets are available compared to what ships and weapons your pvp groups use... then come back and ***** and moan if there is something to ***** and moan about.
It be too damn inconvienent to do that then crank out another boohoo thread. And that is all these posts are. Why haven't the devs replyed to you before they went on vacation... because they can see outside the box on one hand and on schedule to release kali on the other.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:02:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 16/08/2006 13:02:27 Mutlifreq M
Base shield dmg: 22.0 Base Armor dmg: 12.1
EMP M
Base shield dmg: 15.6 Base armor dmg: 14.2
Fusiom M
Base shield dmg: 8.8 Base armor dmg: 17.4
Scourge Heavy Missle
Base shield dmg: 90 Base armor dmg: 112.5
Antimatter Charge M
Base shield dmg: 16.4 Base armor dmg: 17.0
2 EANMII+DCU/2 INVUL2 tank more or less halves all of those values... It is obvious to see that Amarr will have problems with armor tanks. The dmg would balance out vs a non-tanked target, but ammos go like this:
1. very good vs shield, weak vs armor(multifreq M) 2. very good vs armor, weak vs shield(fusion M) 3. good vs both(hybrids, emp M)
That itself shouldn't be too bad idea for balance... but the issue is that 70% of the ships have slot layouts from armortanks, and even many of the shieldtank ships prefer to go the ecm + armortank route.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:11:00 -
[84]
Let us also consider :
a) the guns those ammos are used in
i) tracking ii) damage modifiers iii)ammo consumption
b) the ships those guns go on
i) slots to supplement gun defficiency ii) modules needed to supplement gun defficiency iii) cargo hold for ammo or *lackthereof* iv) secondary and tertiary weapon systems available
c) all the different scenarios that can come from a and b
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
I'd like to know why you think they are... since your only so called proof are kill boards which cannot realistically be used as exact data.
NOR can you tell me why you should be entitled to targets of opportunity that tank what you don't fire so that you can easily have battles in your favor.
Maybe you and all the goddamn whiners should start making decisions about where you pvp based on what targets are available compared to what ships and weapons your pvp groups use... then come back and ***** and moan if there is something to ***** and moan about.
It be too damn inconvienent to do that then crank out another boohoo thread. And that is all these posts are. Why haven't the devs replyed to you before they went on vacation... because they can see outside the box on one hand and on schedule to release kali on the other.
Kaylana - it is very simple why EAN II's + DC are more popular than specific hardners.
- Takes WAY less CPU to fit
- Uses no cap
- Hull resists give the equivalent to a built in plate without using a 4th slot
- Even only moderate sp investment into armor comp skills nets 48% resists to ALL damage types, not just one, two, or three
- DC is on a different stacking slot than EANs, and gives some shield resists too
Truly, for pvp anyone who is armor tanking and *NOT* using EanIIs +DC is an idiot. NPCing is the only place that it may make more sense to use stacked specific hardeners.
So Kaylana Syi, why would anyone use a 3 slot, or 3 hardener 1 plate 4 slot "traditional" armor tank when EanIIs + DC are pretty much superior in every way? I can't produce specific numbers on who uses what - but I can use logic to deduce this:
Most pvp armor tanks will fit whatever provides the most defense with the fewest slots. Most pvp armor tanks will fit the mods with the lowest fitting requirements as they can. Therefore most pvp armor tanks will fit an EANII + DC armor tank.
I know you can't provide any numbers as to how many fit specific hardeners just as no one else can provide the exact numbers as to who fits EANIIs and DC. But can you provide *ANY* reasoning on why people would fit specific hardeners? Because honestly they are inferior in every way to EANIIs. Perhaps I could better understand your conclusion if you could show the thought process that lead you to it.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:34:00 -
[86]
We can go in circles all day... and I really hope we do so the thread will be locked...
but to answer your questions *somewhat* is because
a) not everyone has hull upgrades 5 or teh compensations to 5
b) not everyone fits for a 1 vs 1 which is what you are fitting for
In a fleet battle its not going to help you much if at all... so you are really posting setups that are very 'self' oriented not 'gang' oriented thus really disrepecting the entire balance argument. Moreover, amarrians have been and always will be the anti-shield combat.
You all are totally ignoring the great ships in amarr line up and the ignoring the fact that ECM is going to be gutted. Lets not forget that amarr will have a devestating ewar at that time vs the gallente turrets and caldari railboats.
When confronted with the 'shield tanker's are your primary target' the defense is the tired ECM + Armor tank which is a plauge on all races. When it is all said and done... and ECM is fixed... amarr can take pride in being the race that was the most pure in the great ECM escapade.
Until then... grass will always be greener but in reality all the races have their hiccups. Walk in my minmatar shoes one the same low SP requirement can be devestating on amarr paths... then come talk.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:39:00 -
[87]
I'm growing tired of this arguement. The OP is just stupid IMO. Amarr are not screwed totally. But people have to realize that Amarr, unlike the other races, is focused only on lasers and that EANMII+DC tanks have made lasers much less effective in PvP. And when Amarr are doing sub-par damage with their lasers - the only thing they're supposed to be good at - you will get lots of unhappy people.
I still use and love my amarr ships, I like to sacrifice versatility for great damage and tanks but recently that damage isn't really great. That's why you see so many Amarrians using the curse and pilgrim recently.
Anyway, Amarr are not totally screwed but EANMII+DC has made them rather tame. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dixon I'm growing tired of this arguement. The OP is just stupid IMO. Amarr are not screwed totally. But people have to realize that Amarr, unlike the other races, is focused only on lasers and that EANMII+DC tanks have made lasers much less effective in PvP. And when Amarr are doing sub-par damage with their lasers - the only thing they're supposed to be good at - you will get lots of unhappy people.
I still use and love my amarr ships, I like to sacrifice versatility for great damage and tanks but recently that damage isn't really great. That's why you see so many Amarrians using the curse and pilgrim recently.
Anyway, Amarr are not totally screwed but EANMII+DC has made them rather tame.
Ah well you can always come shoot me, I still run tanks that harden equally against all damage types.
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:20:00 -
[89]
Quote: sorry but tachs are not useless... laser prices are deflated because sansha space is riddled with NPCers. I myself supply 100's of millions in modulated lasers to the domain market.
It's because nothing buy this gun !!! PvP = Tachyon and PvE =! BS amarr (it's not possible to play with this ship too long for shoot a NPC.
Quote: If you want to bring NPCing into EVE then I will have to point you to the PvE logic that dictates each race is given an NPC faction that best suits its own damage type. There is no reason why amarr whould get more than 2 NPC factions. Especially since those NPCs drop the most valuabel loot in the game for refines AND you don't need ammo vs them.
Stop ! I prefer buy X ammo which don't make damage or canno't shoot the NPC. I use T2 ammo and take damage 1h30 your lence explode. 3m2, it's expensive. How many you pay for make a plex with missile, projo or hybrid ? (not t2, for can make plex only ... 200k ? my 3m2 because make too time for shoot and my lence explode very very quickly see the price of lence !!!!) If you don't fitt this lence you canno't shoot the NPC ! And I'm sorry but blood ans shansha aren't only for amarr, serpentis for gallente, ... A ship must can shoot all NPC ! And gallente, calda and minma can shoot all NPC only amarr canno't shoot all NPC. The problem is here and with a full dmg fitting armagueddon, you make 100-200 dmg max per gun. With a megathron (I have tested), 300 dmg per gun and you have one more gun !!! You don't need tank, you kill npc before the npc shoot lol A arma haven't the choice to tank. My arma full damage on a guristas take more time than a raven t1 with t1 torp.
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Ujio Noki
Puppets on Steroids Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:26:00 -
[90]
there's an Amarr issue? |
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