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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Ujio Noki there's an Amarr issue?
Yeah, and the guy posting before you gives a awesome display of what the problem is...
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Ishmael Hansen
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:35:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ujio Noki there's an Amarr issue?
Want to trade Caldari 29m sp character able to fly NH with one able to fly Absolution.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:35:00 -
[93]
OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
CEO - Art of War
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:36:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
No no, we should balance ships so they can wtfpwn the ships that are their strongest opponents, cause how else could they.... hmmm... nope doesn't make much sense.
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Powder Monkey
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
Idiot.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:39:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
There are sensible solutions put forward in that big 63 page thread - Let the compensation skills boost active hardners so people move back to active hardning insted of EANMII's and then the balance is restored. But if that happened, every non-amarr pilot would scream blue murder that their dps output has shot down. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:47:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 14:48:37
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
a) not everyone has hull upgrades 5 or teh compensations to 5
b) not everyone fits for a 1 vs 1 which is what you are fitting for
a) Thats like saying "not everyone is using t2 ammo". Which is true, too. But, surprisingly, it has rather massive effects on the game. Because eventually people DO train for them (and this requires a good more effort than hull up 5). And the compensation skills work just fine with them at lvl 4 only. In fact the 48% number is for them at lvl4. With lvl 5 they are 49.5%.
and b)... That is a pretty standard setup for everything but fleet combat. And fleet combat isn't even close to being the majority of all PvP.
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:13:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 16/08/2006 16:13:43 I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:29:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 16:31:47
Quote: I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
Exactly - I have made this point a number of times. There are only 2 solutions that I have suggested in the past that actually make sence and can solve this issue.
1. Active hardners to get bonus's from compensation skills. So insted of 55%, they are pumped upto 65-70% *Advantages: People go back to 3 hardner setip *Disadvantages: This Transfers the issue of compensation effecting em-turrets to Compensation effecting non-em turrets. Balance issue is simply tranfered from amarr to other races. The issue will still exist.
2. Give the Amarr Tier3 BS 7/8 Launchers, but a 10% Per level bonus to EM Damage only. This idea of mine was build on the original idea by Nyxus that made a very good case of giving the Abaddon launchers, and building on that excellent idea was my suggestion of the 10% per level to EM missiles only. *Advantages: Makes EM damage type a viable setup from a specialised ship. Will not be able to tank in a damage setup, nor will it outclass the raven unique point of gank and tank (Quite why people think a tier 2 BS should outclass a Racial Damage specilised Tier 3 BS is anyones guess). With the bonus, and 8 launchers, this ship would have the same output as 12 EM torps, however, the low CPU means that on other damage types, it only has the output of 8 torps, and will have great difficulty fitting the ballistics that the ravens 7.5 torp output can spam with. *Disadvantages: Introduces another missile spammer ingame. Players will need to train another skillset
To be honest, I would prefer option 2, and I dont mind training up missiles, since most amarr pilots I know are training up Projectiles anyway! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:59:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 17:04:13
Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 16/08/2006 16:13:43 I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
Agreed. Although I wouldn't say it's exactly an EAN2 problem. It's a bit more complicated.
Let's assume EAN2 get balanced instead of nerfed into the stoneage. For example, made active with similar stats like an invul field. Would that solve the EM problem and people would again use 3 active single resistance harderners instead?
I would say a very definite "no" here. Just look at shield tank setups. Do you see a raven using 3 single resistance harderners? Standart shield harderner setup is 1 EM, 2 Invuls. People use multi resistance harderners rather than single resistance ones for PvP simply because they save a slot with them. 3 multi res usually do the work of 4 single res.
It's the same with armor tanks. The EM problem isn't there because EAN2 is too strong (which it IMO most definately is for an passive module), it's because the very *existance* of a viaable multi resistance harderner for armor.
Letting the skills apply for active harderners might be a solution. Problem here is that invul fields would get a rather massive boost with that and it will cause problems with other aspects of the game (big boost to passive shield tanks and NPCing in general), so I do not like it that much. What about simply letting the comp skills apply on passive single resistance harderners only? Although people who invested heavily in the armor comp skills would be massively ****ed by that I am sure.
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 17:14:00 -
[101]
It's not an EANM 2 problem specifically. It's a combination of EANM2's and a DC when compared to a 3 hardener setup. As I detailed previously the EANM2/DC tank does almost as well as the 3 Hardener tank for the 3 primary resists but then gives you pretty much 2 free slots on top of it with the extra EM resists and the more than doubling of your structure hitpoints.
I don't think the issue needs to be clouded with Invulnerability Field and their position in shield tanks. Due to their fitting requirements and significant cap usage they have differing issues.
On further thought however, I think a better solution for the specific hardeners would be to do this:
Keep everything currently the same except that the specific active hardeners also add a %age amount to total shields or total armour.
This is a change that favours no damage type over another. Only slight issue could be capital ships and passive shield tanks, but passive shield tanks require an enormous commitment of slots on most ships to work well.
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.08.16 17:36:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 15/08/2006 22:53:08 I'm not sure why this thread has not received any response from CCP, but it is quite obvious that Amarr ships leave something to be desired generally right now.
Stated in This Thread (which has 62 pages by the way):
*********************************************************** 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
***********************************************************
Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training amarr skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?
Well, you've said everything I've argued in the other thread, which I think we should keep alive along with this one.
I've never been a proponent of explosive damage, I have however figued a rebalance of thermal/em would help also, leaving the t2 crystals as is. Everything else you just mentioned is exactly how it is. I've flown amarr for 3 years, no joke. There are a few things that led to amarr being as it is : 1) Damage Mod stacking was taken away, 2) CCP made our crystals do less thermal at long range 3) EAN2 & IF became hugely popular to use with the introduction of the skills that boosted them up & their increases in resistance. 4) The lack of any boost besides Tachyon small increase in damage for amarr.
If I were a Dev, I'd read all that & have to agree, but its so much work i'd either have to ignore the problem and hope it would go away or start figuring out a solution.
One thing the Devs need to know, I'm NOT going to stop posting or let this slide. Nor should anyone else. Its our game to play.
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Soratah
Amarr Ubiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:22:00 -
[103]
I think there are a few problems with Amarr ships that already been addressed. I'd just like to re-iterate.
1) overcompensation: The Recon ships and the Command ships for the Amarr are very powerful and arguably the strongest of their field of all the races. This was done by CCP primarily to bolster the Amarrian side. However, since 90% of the Amarr population probably cant afford/buy these ships the deliberate boosting is moot.
2) Balance issues: Amarr ships (specifically the Geddon) is a very good damage dealer. However, the skill requirements are significantly higher to achieve similar capabilities/damage levels in other ships.
3) Ship balances: Because of the way lasers are and the usual standard fitting on Amarr ships costs heavy in the way of CPU/GRID. The advanced skills dont really address this issue for Amarrians and thus their ships are a series of compromises in regards to modules. Unlike their counterparts they sometimes cant even fit the weaponry/modules they were designed for. (Amarr Destroyer anyone?..)
4) Clearcut roles: With the exception of the Armageddon the other Amarrian ships dont really fit into anything classifying a good role. My best example of this would be the Apocalypse. Despite it's bonuses it really just cant tank well at all. The new tier 3 ships coming in Kali also add a new BS and it seems like the other factions Battleships have a specific role which their bonuses fit very well for. The Abbaddon just sounds plain ****e to be honest. It cant really do as well as a Geddon because of the huge cap cost it's guns will have. It probably wont have a decent enough cap to run a tank like the Apoc tries and does very badly at.
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Hakera
Minmatar Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:58:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Soratah
1) overcompensation:
i dont see it as overcompensation really, its just fortunate that the recons have a useful anti-ship role that is very effective across a lot more scenarios than a web bonus for eg. Also overcompensation would suggest you are undercompensated elsewhere, I would have to disagree there.
Quote:
2) Balance issues: Amarr ships (specifically the Geddon) is a very good damage dealer. However, the skill requirements are significantly higher to achieve similar capabilities/damage levels in other ships.
I dont really see how thats an issue as its the same for all ships. The only different being your higher need for cap conservation skills. I think you also forget the typhoon which most agree is the highest skillpoint bs class ship out there for effective use as your required to have 3 different weapon systems trained up to the same standard you would have one - lasers.
Quote:
3) Ship balances: ........ The advanced skills dont really address this issue for Amarrians and thus their ships are a series of compromises in regards to modules. Unlike their counterparts they sometimes cant even fit the weaponry/modules they were designed for. (Amarr Destroyer anyone?..)
no ship besides the scorp or raven are easy to fit. Every other ship has to make a comprimise whether it be range, damage or tank for them to work. We're all in the same boat essentially bar caldari.
Quote:
4) Clearcut roles: With the exception of the Armageddon the other Amarrian ships dont really fit into anything classifying a good role. My best example of this would be the Apocalypse. Despite it's bonuses it really just cant tank well at all. The new tier 3 ships coming in Kali also add a new BS and it seems like the other factions Battleships have a specific role which their bonuses fit very well for.
I cant really see your point here, your role is really a fucntion of how close you want to get which dicates your setup. I think anything that can equip duel reps alone stands a far better chance in combat than the lower base cap, lower grid counterparts which will struggle to fit duel reps and typically have to drop to a large & a medium just to get them to fit.
To sum up - I disagree
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Powder Monkey
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
Idiot.
What a clever well thought out reply, go you.
CEO - Art of War
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Cupdeez
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:55:00 -
[106]
Everyship in eve has a different role. So I'll break it down for everyone..
Apoc (Good Fleet ship) Best armor tank in the game No ammo Needed only uses power for guns. Does one of the Best DPS Still can pack 4 heavy drones.
Mega (Good Fleet Ship) 2nd best armor tank in the game takes lots of ammo and lots of power for guns Good damage not the best uses 5 heavy drones
Raven (Crapy Fleet Ship) Best sheilds tank in the game good damage no cap needed can't hold may drones at all
Tempest (Good Fleet Ship) Can't tank anything really Most damage per volley 4 heavy drones
Geddon (Close Range) Good Damage or Good Tank Can use 5 heavy drones
Domi (Close Range) Solid tank no damage All drones for the win.
Scorp (Very Good Fleet Ship so good itz primary) Best EW or Good Tank No damage / No drones
Phoon (Close range) Good Armor Tank Guns and missiles are mixed bad damage
Ammar - Is known for Tanking and pure damage that is the role this ship takes. It uses no ammo but requires lots of power to run its Guns. It only can do 2 damage types but does the most DPS. Also can be packed with drones to do the other damage types. (least expensive to run)
Gallente - Is known for solid damage and solid armor tank. Itz cargo is filled with ammo and uses a ton of cap. The guns only do kenetic and thermic but can be made up with picking 5 drones to make the other damage up. (just good not the best at anything)
Caldari - Best sheild tank sick damage and is more geared for EW. Can pick any damage type but has the smallest drone bays. (least skills to fly)
Minnie - more of a mix of everything from guns to missiles to sheild or armor tanking. Does tons of damage but can't tank as well as the others. (Most fun to fly)
Yah you can cry all you want but with maxed out skilled in a apoc vs any other max out player is going to come down to who is a better PVP player and who has the better setup for the fight.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:20:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Cupdeez Everyship in eve has a different role. So I'll break it down for everyone..
Apoc (Good Fleet ship) Best armor tank in the game No ammo Needed only uses power for guns. Does one of the Best DPS Still can pack 4 heavy drones.
Geddon (Close Range) Good Damage or Good Tank Can use 5 heavy drones
Ammar - Is known for Tanking and pure damage that is the role this ship takes. It uses no ammo but requires lots of power to run its Guns. It only can do 2 damage types but does the most DPS. Also can be packed with drones to do the other damage types. (least expensive to run)
Ok... now you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Apocalypse: (Decent Fleet Ship) Same armor tank as other Dual-Rep BS, slightly more armor HP. Crystals needed. T2 Crystals like carrying a second uninsured BS in your cargohold. Does one of the worst DPS of any Battleship. Can only use three Heavy Drones, more likely 5 Med 5 Light.
Armageddon:(Good Fleet Ship) Great Theoretical DPS. EANM+DC tank changes this. Plated fleet setups change this. Very high Cap use. Bad tank. Can use 5 Heavy Drones (You got one right!)
Amarr:Is known for tanking OR damage. Has tanks that are, honestly, either very little ahead of other race's tanks, the same as their tanks, or worse. Has the second best theoretical DPS. EANM+DC tank, plated tanks, and EM+2xInvuln II tanks give the ships far less than On-Paper DPS. Second smallest drone bays in game. Lowest number of midslots in game. Least versatility in game. Fleet-setups are the most expensive fleet-setups in the game, because of the T2 crystal cost.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:49:00 -
[108]
Quote: no ship besides the scorp or raven are easy to fit. Every other ship has to make a comprimise whether it be range, damage or tank for them to work. We're all in the same boat essentially bar caldari.
The Scorp is easy to fit because nobody cares about your highslots once you pack your meds with ECM. The Raven isn't easy to fit, show me one torp raven with all highslots used and a decent tank (without fitting mods ofcourse, since it's so easy).
Quote: I cant really see your point here, your role is really a fucntion of how close you want to get which dicates your setup. I think anything that can equip duel reps alone stands a far better chance in combat than the lower base cap, lower grid counterparts which will struggle to fit duel reps and typically have to drop to a large & a medium just to get them to fit.
Sure the apoc can fit dual reps with some smaller guns, but even with it's capacitor it won't be able to run them due to laser cap usage. And try realizing that this large capacitor is nothing more than a compensation for the laser cap usage, it gives the apoc the ability to run a tank - it doesn't make the apoc a tanking monster (without projectiles ofc.).
Quote: To sum up - I disagree
So do I - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Angus McLean
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:00:00 -
[109]
A lot of people are talking theoretics here. If you find a battleship and its setup for pvp and you kill it. You WILL find 2 EANM II's and a DC. Whether 'everyone' has the skills or not. If you think im lying do this, go to ships and mods and write a question pretending to be a noob saying
"Well Ive just gotten in my first BS but I dont have the skills for EANM's and a DC, what do I tank with?"
You will be laughed at and told "Then stick to a cruiser until you get some skills" by everyone on the forums.
Ok that solved. Next issue. Yes Amarr does great damage...if your not using EANM's and DC's that is. Now we've already established in 100 posts why that is the standard so it is and get over it. Maybe you dont have the skills to use it or the money to buy it but that doesnt mean others dont. Anyways yeah so lets do some simple math equations.
For all real numbers X = A divided by Y. Now lets add the variables, X = Amarrs realistic damage output. A= Amarrs 'amazing!' damage output and Y= 2xEANM's and DC.
Now using that forumla lets assume Amarr (X) do 1000 dps. So 300dps = 1000 divided by 2 EANM's and a DC.
Now everyone knows math is always correct so after this problem that im sure no one followed we read this.
Amarrs damage output (1000dps) is utterly crushed by the (already established) 'standard' tank which brings it to X (300dps) which is a 'real' number and a reality. So now the real answer is this:
Amarrs damage output is crap because the standard (EANM+DC) is too good for it. So Amarrs damage is now crap. It WAS good but seeings anyone with money and good skills will be setup for standard tank so amarrs damage output is crap. Whether it is on paper or not.
And for all intents and purposes Amarrs damage output is forever crap until EANM's + DC are nerfed or Amarrs damage is boosted.
Ok and final issue I read here...the Omen. It sucks and dont even try to defend it. It can hardly fit 4 Heavy Pulses and its mid slots before you have to have fitting mods. Fix it.
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Kaemka
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:13:00 -
[110]
*********************************************************** 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
***********************************************************
1. the main minmatar bonus is crap, 5% to make guns usable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos and damage control are not going to be nerfed, meaning alpha strike counts even less. 3. minmatar have basically no racical ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med projectile guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a rupture at all with 4 720mm guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of DPS.
Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training minmatar skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?
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Trojanman190
Caldari Everlasting Impact
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:20:00 -
[111]
What he said.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:26:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Aramendel Mainly due to minnie ships being 50:50 armor:shieldtanks, gallente and amarr 100% armor and caldari 100% shieldtanks. Fixing the med/lowslot imbalance will reduce the problem significantly, but not totally solve it.
It wouldn't be hard to get gallente ships to shield tank some more; dominix slots, grid and cpu (accounting for the usual mid slot shortage related to attempts at balancing EW) show clearly that it should have been mostly a shield tanking ship. Of course it's only seldom shield tanked, given the mid/low slots/mods balance (or lack thereof) and ecm constraints. Besides, it's not completely impossible to change a few ships once ecm and mid/low slot balance improved.
Originally by: Angus McLean And for all intents and purposes Amarrs damage output is forever crap until EANM's + DC are nerfed or Amarrs damage is boosted.
Amarr damage doesn't need boosting, PERIOD. It's a resistance and a slot/module balancing issue, it's not a laser or amarr issue. What you see is not the problem, it's a symptom, and therefore there is no worth in hiding it behind a broken bandaid that's going to create new problems.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:35:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Dixon on 16/08/2006 21:35:51
Originally by: Naughty Boy Amarr damage doesn't need boosting, PERIOD. It's a resistance and a slot/module balancing issue, it's not a laser or amarr issue. What you see is not the problem, it's a symptom, and therefore there is no worth in hiding it behind a broken bandaid that's going to create new problems.
That slave speaks teh truth! Stop asking for damage boosts and bonus changes and focus on the real issue - resist and overpowered medslots. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Zaethiel
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:47:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
They don't need to boost the all aroudn damage. That would be bad. Don't think anyone wants that. What Lasers need is a boost to Armor Base damage. Giving lasers the ability to use explosive damage would help.
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Yodohime Kibagami
Amarr Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:58:00 -
[115]
I wish the amarr faction would be considered more on the younger toon view besides the problems of pvp with near-perfect or perfect skills and supporting skills.
The ships are outrageously hard to fit with the racial guns, they are overcompensating for their pros, excessive PG and capacitor requirements to do only moderate or even bad damage on things other than cans, add in tiny field of fire for crystals and expensive t2 crystals that wear out.
Ships themselves are scarce on midslots, easiest to jam or tracking discrupt. 'wasting' a boni to be able to be more cap efficient, which is also mostly moot with most of their ships not having enough mids to even put a cap booster along with essential pvp mods, or having to give up one of the three.
The thought of ships being as efficient or overall more efficient while using other factions guns should be enough of a reason by itself to look into Amarr overall.
Need more reasons to fly amarr than being aesthetically more pleasing than legos or melted crayons or rusty duct-tape monsters, Dammit.
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Hakera
Minmatar Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:07:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami
Ships themselves are scarce on midslots, easiest to jam or tracking discrupt.
what?
jamming strength is always minmatar -> amarr -> gallente -> caldari and as for tracking, lasers are the best tracking turrets.
The lack of utiltiy slots has been there since conception, but no one whined back then as they shield tanked their apocs with 6*cpr's back then with a sustainble tank as well.
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:16:00 -
[117]
I really don't think there is any way you can say that the popularity of EANII x2 + DC does not severely hurt amarr ships in pvp. A minmatar-esque ammo variety would probably fix it though, adding a little bit of kineic or explosive (though obviously hard to justify in the RP sense)
The ability to change all of our crystals at once would be EXCELLENT though, nstead we have the buggy "right click, switch, right click switch, oops bug with reloading, right click, stack.."
Once you begin to use t2 ammo and there is no ability to stack the crystals it gets very very annoying.
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:19:00 -
[118]
Once you start toying with the active hardners, you need to think about what the officer ones could do. Imagine 4 officer actives on an abbaddon, say.
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Eelim Garak
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:33:00 -
[119]
Hi, i am 6 month old, specialized in amarr, and this thread is patethic!
I am a Pirate, as said i fly amarr ships, and i dont have a problem killing people, that includes 2 year old PvPer's (Pirates/Anti-Pirates) as well as the common mining noob. FFS Guys, just train up your fitting skills, learn how to fitt a ship, and do it, maybe amarr ships need a little more brain activity to fitt, and if you cant provide it no bonus or weaponsystem overhaul will help you there.
And stop whining you cant kill a Vagabond with an Omen/Maller, try a Zealot.
If you loose a ship, try to consider that it was not your ships fault, but your own.
Greetings Eelim
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:41:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Eelim Garak Hi, i am 6 month old, specialized in amarr, and this thread is patethic!
I am a Pirate, as said i fly amarr ships, and i dont have a problem killing people, that includes 2 year old PvPer's (Pirates/Anti-Pirates) as well as the common mining noob. FFS Guys, just train up your fitting skills, learn how to fitt a ship, and do it, maybe amarr ships need a little more brain activity to fitt, and if you cant provide it no bonus or weaponsystem overhaul will help you there.
And stop whining you cant kill a Vagabond with an Omen/Maller, try a Zealot.
If you loose a ship, try to consider that it was not your ships fault, but your own.
Greetings Eelim
Well, that was a very blind post. This is about balance, not being able to kill things. Normally when you shoot somebody else somebody has a really big advantage but when a skilled pvper in a apoc with a tank on comes up against a killed mega pilot with a EANII and DC tank then the apoc is screwed unless some sort of ECM variable is there, if you assume their equipment and skills are pracically the same.
I've been specialised in amarr over 2 years and yes the have done me quite well but i do find im firing peanuts now and again when shoot somebody with that sort of tank on. Fortunately when I have come across that I've been in a gang. I KNOW how to fit my ships, currently there is not much amarr users can do versus those resistances when the high EM damage on lasers is resisted. The problem didnt exist pre-DC and EAN boost.
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