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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:44:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Everybody is repeating themselfs in this thread, and there is nothing being said here that wasnt said in the 62 page long Amarr thread.
Maybe its time to give this "issue" a rest?
Ignoring the issue isn't going to make it go away.
No, but maybe you can agree to disagree. Because this isnt going anywhere.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:50:00 -
[182]
You can ignore the problem (like you did with the armor/shieldtanker numerical imbalance) or you can try to prove it otherwise.
Currently you are doing the first thing, and as Dixon said: ignoring does not make it go away.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:54:00 -
[183]
Aramendel, I knew you would show up. You guys work in pairs...like Batman & Robin. Now.. which one is Batman? :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:58:00 -
[184]
I am obviously Robin.
You're the Joker, sometimes incoherent and impossible to reason with.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 18:00:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Aramendel I am obviously Robin.
You're the Joker, sometimes incoherent and impossible to reason with.
You sound like my mother. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.18 18:21:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Nyxus on 18/08/2006 18:24:18
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Nyxus "Oldschool" Tanking:
Active Thermal, Kinetic, Expl hardener, + Repper + Plate = 60EM/60Therm/60Expl/60Kin resists give or take a bit for racial flavoring.
"Newschool" Tanking:
EAN IIx2 + DC + Repper: 80/60/60/60 resists. Better resists, easier to fit, costs no cap, and needs 1 less low slot \o/. 4TW!
What I'm always saying - specific hardeners need boosting compared to omni-hardeners.
In either case, the "old school" hardener setup is slightly off. On a Megathron (base: 60/10/35/35) you get 60/55/67.5/67.5 - essentially with this lasers suffer less and hybrids suffer more while projectiles (exp damage) are still the best. With T2 active tanks you get 60/59.5/70.75/70.75
On the "new school" it's also slightly off in a similar way - kin/th resists are too low while Exp resists are slightly too high... but the illustration is perfect there - lasers deal least damage and projectiles most damage (although I haven't verified EMP versus AM nor the T2 damage variants).
(per ammo discharge - i.e. not counting damage modifiers nor rate of fire only damage types and damage amounts)
True. It's varies among races as each has seperate specific racial armor bonuses:
Apoc: 60/20/25/35 base yielding 60EM/60Expl/62.5Kin/67.5Therm with 3 actives
Tempest 70/10/25/35 base yielding 70EM/55Expl/62.5Kin/67.5Therm with 3 actives
Mega 60/10/35/35 base you get 60EM/55Expl/67.5Kin/67.5 Therm
Shooting a Mega lasers suffer less and Hybrids a bit more. Shooting a Tempest lasers suffer MUCH more than Hybrids. Shooting an Apoc it's pretty close. The racial bonuss flavours armor resists more than I think most people realize. Interestingly enough a Raven's base armor is 60/10/25/45 which is enough to make Hybrid users weep. Luckily, Ravens are shieldtanks. Well, they would be if they weren't just jamming everyone into uselessness.
Point being, it was pretty balanced before with all the weapon adjustments that lead up to the EAN II + DC combo. Then it all just went to crap for anyone who uses primarily EM damage and can't change it.
I disagree with you only in the detail of the specific hardeners issue. I would rather see passive individuals boosted up to 50% with skills (they currently set at 37.5 base before skills) while EAN IIs get hit with a nerf back down to 15% base, and reducing cpu use on the EAN T2 variety significantly as compensation. This leaves active T2 as the only way to boost 55% resists. Here is my reasoning:
- Even if passive individuals were boosted without nerfing Omni hardeners (EAN) no one would use them because you get the more hardening for the same CPU.
- Individual hardening requires 4 slots (3 hardeners +DC) while Omni uses only 3 (EAN IIx2 + DC
- T2 Actives remain the only way to boost resists for 55% (balanced as they require more cpu)
- T1 actives remain viable, if higher cpu than passives, for low sp players
Simply boosting individual hardening isn't enough to get people to switch. Even at the same CPU needs, the extra slot freed by using EAN IIs + DC is too potent. Even if you boosted individual passives to 55% with skills no one would use them, and you would render all active hardeners redundant.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.08.18 19:41:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Ecnav Edited by: Ecnav on 16/08/2006 05:03:04 It's impossible for focused light to do kinetic and/or explosive damage. (unless you hit a minmatar ammo store or something)
Do the words "solar sail" mean anything to you?
Look it up.
Now, imagine that light amplified, and then concentrated on a small point. ---------- My sig is boring. |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.08.20 06:47:00 -
[188]
If you make the individual hardeners better for global resists than the all resist module, what reason is there to use the all resist module? If you want resistances to everything, the resist all module is supposed to be the best.
Single resist hardeners are for patching resistance holes, or when you know what damage types you will encounter. The problem is not how people choose to armor tank, but that they ALL choose to armor tank. If shield tanking were more common, the problem would go away.
Maybe they should make warp scramblers a high slot item. Then it would be easier to solo pirate with a shield tank (Using Drones for web and/or ECM). |
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.08.20 07:54:00 -
[189]
First and foremost, RL science has never mattered in eve.
Secondly, what exactly is explosive damage?
Thirdly, if youve ever seen a laser hit something before, you would agree that it looked more like an explosions than anything else.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.20 10:51:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Death Kill on 20/08/2006 10:50:56 Still debating rl physics eh?
*bump*
For the state for the state for the state |
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Sean Drake
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.20 10:58:00 -
[191]
Please change your signature to match the 400x120 pixel rule. - Ivan K |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.20 11:00:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Nyxus
- Even if passive individuals were boosted without nerfing Omni hardeners (EAN) no one would use them because you get the more hardening for the same CPU.
- Individual hardening requires 4 slots (3 hardeners +DC) while Omni uses only 3 (EAN IIx2 + DC
- T2 Actives remain the only way to boost resists for 55% (balanced as they require more cpu)
- T1 actives remain viable, if higher cpu than passives, for low sp players
As long as the specific ones are boosted compared to omni ones. It doesn't really matter if you bump specifics up or nerf omnies down.
In either case, I cannot agree with point three on the list. More intensive fittings in combination with activation requirement and capacitor cost means you are investing more in the item. Skill requirements is just a one-off time sink. However, the difference between fully skilled passives versus actives doesn't need to be anywhere near as high as it is today. If T1 actives were 55% and T2 actives were 60% with fully skilled passives at 50%, I think there'd be enough difference that some'd favour the passives and some'd favour the actives without one being obviously better (arbitrary values, point is that actives, with higher requirements, should be slightly better than passives purely resistance-wise). It'd also increase tanks slightly, which is something CCP is in favour of. Personally, I'd like to increase hit points instead of tanks, but... that's a different discussion. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 12:19:00 -
[193]
The "needs one less slot" bonus is IMO still outweighting "needs more cap/fitting" easily. Just look at shield tanks. Standard 3 slot tank is there 2 invul and 1 EM harderner, not 1 em, therm, kin.
The whole EM issue is there because there is a viaable omnires harderner for armor. It could as well be active and have an high energyuse like invul fields, it wouldn't change much in the issue.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:19:00 -
[194]
Quote: If you make the individual hardeners better for global resists than the all resist module, what reason is there to use the all resist module? If you want resistances to everything, the resist all module is supposed to be the best.
That's the point: nerfing Armor Omni's so no one uses them. They have unbalanced racial damage and that is a significant problem.
Originally by: Ithildin If T1 actives were 55% and T2 actives were 60% with fully skilled passives at 50%, I think there'd be enough difference that some'd favour the passives and some'd favour the actives without one being obviously better
I think thats a fantastic idea. I wouldn't want to boost active T2 to anymore than 60%, but with the individual passives reaching 50% it would make everything have a specific place again. In any case, Omni armor hardeners *NEED* to be reduced back down to 15% in order to push people back to individual hardening and rebalance racial damage.
And personally I would like to see tanking boosted through armor hp as well. Uber resists have too many balancing problems. Now with DCs in the game I would really like to see plates and extenders have thier fitting reqs SEVERELY lowered. And some capital ship sized plates introduced that could be fit on battleships. Longer battles through high hp is good.
Originally by: Aramendel The "needs one less slot" bonus is IMO still outweighting "needs more cap/fitting" easily. Just look at shield tanks. Standard 3 slot tank is there 2 invul and 1 EM harderner, not 1 em, therm, kin.
The whole EM issue is there because there is a viaable omnires harderner for armor. It could as well be active and have an high energyuse like invul fields, it wouldn't change much in the issue.
QFT
Omni armor hardeners need to be nerfed. No way around it. They unbalace racial damage and devalue low slots even more than they do now. We need more modules to value low slots MORE than they are now. DC's were a start, changing back to individual hardeners is moving back in the right direction. Low slot ECCM boosting would be good with some plate love in my opinion. Anything to get away from "Well I don't have anything else to put in these 4 lows, guess I will just use WCS...."
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:44:00 -
[195]
Although I myself would still prefer tinkering with the base resists instead of making omnis useless. Single are better in PvE, Omnis better in PvP. Don't see much of a problem there. EAN2 is too strong, but thats mainly because it is an passive module.
Also, one thing what people miss is that a plated setup is for lasers just the same as an EAN2 setup - the realation of the different resistances is identical there. All EAN2 is doing is reducing the damage from all sources by 50%. No real difference if you do half the dps or have to chew through twice the armor...
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.20 16:26:00 -
[196]
7 pages and no reply... bump for you
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DrEiak
Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium
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Posted - 2006.08.20 17:53:00 -
[197]
So many people off topic allready.
Kin and therm drones are NOT the only ones that do damage, silly gallente. If they were then I ask you why so many people use explosive drones in PvP? There is nothing like a vagabond using 3 warrior II's on top of the allready uber damage they deal.
Second of all, people are saying amarr as a race are not completly ruined. THAT IS CRAP! Amarr WEREN'T completly ruined until the last few patches. Every race is supposed to have superiority in at least one field.
Caldari as a race are supposed to be best shield tank/ best EW/ best missle race... that is a LOT of bests..
Gallente as a race are supposed to be "best" DPS (this is kinda debatable but none the less CCPs intentions) especially at close range (blaster specialty) and/or best drones. Gallente were supposed to have decent tanks but not the best.
Minmataar as a race are supposed to have the best speed, and sig radius (making them the hardest race to hit). Best falloff making high damage ammo the easiest to use since tracking is usually low on projectiles (unless you use autocannons). Lastly the MOST options, although some minmataar call this a two sided sword.
Amarr as a race are SUPPOSED TO HAVE (but dont) the best tanks, and the best armor. Amarr do not have any more HP then caldari ships, I know, I checked. In fact ravens have MORE HP then an apoc. Our race is far from the king of anything at the moment, so anyone who thinks amarr require anything less then a complete overhaul (i am not asking for an un-nerf, just a someone to rethink what the amarr are supposed to do the best -better then any other race- and make our ships do that, if it is the best tanks and low DPS we need a LOT of luv.)
If you can think of ONE thing the amarr do better then any other race then I will agree, we dont need to be changed, but at the moment gallente AND caldari both can tank better then amarr. All races out DPS amarr, INCLUDING the geddon, and as soon as we get a good ship (curse) it gets nerfed (kali and NOS nerf).
Also saying that amarr dont use ammo is bull if you argue that minmataar only have two damage types on T2 level. Our ammo costs the most AND gets used up on the T2 level, on top of that, it gets used up in random intervals so it is harder to plan how much crystals to bring along, and you can only bring WHOLE crystals, leaving you with MILLIONS of isk worth of ammo for any op using T2 crystals.
Minmataar bonuses to projectiles ARE real bonuses they dont just make projectiles usable, after all look at OUR ships fitting projectiles. We use projectiles to make AMARR usable so dont ***** that you only get RoF and damage bonuses, i will stab you in the throat.
My argument is that there should be at least one reason to fly amarr and that should not be based on lasers = no ammo, since our ammo is our capacitors, and if you ask me that is a MUCH bigger disadvantage currently then an advantage. THAT is why lasers draw so much energy. We should not be getting gimped this hard because T1 crystals dont get consumed in energy weapons.
My suggestion has been stated many many times but I will reiterate. To fix amarr, quite simply put, our ships require better roll bonuses to do this I suggest:
Lasers get flat 25% reduction in cap usage, controlled burst skill is changed to 10% cap reduction, 10% bonus is removed from ALL amarr ships and replaced with some type of armor bonus. This would make amarr have the same DPS and cap usage on lasers, but would make amarr the king of tanks. Our ships would have either the thickest armor by a large margin, the best resistances by a moderate margin, or equal armor rep as gallente. I also think that more amarr ships should get NOS/Neut bonus (as an alternative to amarr bonus) since this has been opened up by the devs as an "amarr thing" even though currently all races luv to NOS. If you do the math on my suggestions I dont think anyone can complain. PLUS laser cap usage would be the same for ALL races.
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DrEiak
Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium
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Posted - 2006.08.20 17:59:00 -
[198]
My suggestion also makes MWD blaster boats better since hybrids would use less cap as well (changing controlled bursts to 10% reduces cap for both lasers and hybrids)
I also still think minmataar need to be tweeked, but not boosted or gimped, just changed slightly. They are still the 2nd most skill intensive race.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:37:00 -
[199]
Originally by: DrEiak So many people off topic allready.
Kin and therm drones are NOT the only ones that do damage, silly gallente. If they were then I ask you why so many people use explosive drones in PvP? There is nothing like a vagabond using 3 warrior II's on top of the allready uber damage they deal.
EM is the most resisted armor on a t1 hull. Explosive is the most resisted shield of a t1 hull. Thermal and kinetic make great damage types for *all around* pvp. If you are using t2 minmatar ammo you only get explosive and kinetic. Thus you will want a teriary damage that will help you. Thermal is the best combination in this case.
If you are in a laser ship obviously you want explosive as a tertiary damage. Kinetic is a great supplement to a missiles and other kinetic rounds.
Quote: Second of all, people are saying amarr as a race are not completly ruined. THAT IS CRAP! Amarr WEREN'T completly ruined until the last few patches. Every race is supposed to have superiority in at least one field.
So... tell me what the minmatar are great at again? I read futher down but those don't really count because they don't really make us great. The amount of fidling with our setups, having hodgepodge configs that are basically half assed variations of other races ( yes we know how to fly YOUR ships better then you do since ours mimic them in many ways ), the amount of SP involved in making our ships worthy to undock and the fact we just look better in portraits.... is why we are superior. Not that we have any role in the game other than being a time sink.
We have only a few ships that truely stand out and one of them is imo a bit easy to be an exploitative bastage with. That is the vagabond. We have some good ships but they are in equal measure to every other race including amarr. Not only do I love the omen, pilgrim, arbitrator, armageddon, apoc, punisher, maller, zealot, heretic, sacrelidge and malediction... but I own them all too and on 2 dedicated amarr accounts no less. Broke? I don't think so. If I want to kill someone I just know before hand not to fight armor tankers or I roll with friends that complement me.
If you think there is a increase in armor tanking even on shield oriented ships I won't disagree... but that isn't an amarr issue... that is an ECM crisis that *is* being changed.
kthxbye.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:43:00 -
[200]
Even without ECM medslots are still far, far better.
Which important mods do you have in lows? Armortank, damage mods and (should you need them) fitting mods. Meds? Ab/MWD, cap injector, web, disrutor, shield tank and all EW of cource (ecm, tracking disruptors, sensor damperners). ECCM, tracking comps and sensor boosters are available for lows and meds, but favour meds because their versions are stronger.
Also, even without the whole medslot issue there are still, from the basic shipdesign, twice as many armor than shieldtankers. Saying "one has to search for shieldtankers" is nice and fine, but how do you justify that amarr is the *only* race which has to do so? Minnies can switch to EMP for shieldtanks (which is also their highest dps t1 ammo) and even ignoring this will still face only half as many shieldtankers as amarr armortankers.
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.21 21:45:00 -
[201]
Ye shall not be forgotten!
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Wizzkidy
Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.08.21 23:22:00 -
[202]
I'm not going to read the whole 7 pages but I do have a few points to raise
Ammar themselves do indeed seem to get the short end of the stick, any ship can slap on some t2 hardners and get good resistances and last probably as long as an apoc or a geddon, the fact comes into it that with a huge tank like that on an apoc or a geddon means you have just completely gimped your dps and damage output.
This is something that does need addressing, even with decent skills I still struggle to fit an apoc properly, and tbh i eithe gimp it tank or i gimp in gank!? Not great.
just me 2p
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Ayalina Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.22 06:46:00 -
[203]
bump
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.22 06:48:00 -
[204]
I recommend Dr Phil for your issues.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.22 07:22:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 22/08/2006 07:22:47
Originally by: Aramendel Also, even without the whole medslot issue there are still, from the basic shipdesign, twice as many armor than shieldtankers. Saying "one has to search for shieldtankers" is nice and fine, but how do you justify that amarr is the *only* race which has to do so? Minnies can switch to EMP for shieldtanks (which is also their highest dps t1 ammo) and even ignoring this will still face only half as many shieldtankers as amarr armortankers.
Tracking disruptor's are perfect for fighting armor reparing ships all ewar being equal. Those are almost always turret based ships save for the typhoon. EMP comes with great drawbacks ( range ) and Proton comes at a great drawback ( damage ) while at the same time projectiles have both worse tracking and damage over time. Lets not mention ammo use?
Like I said... if you feel there is a rant to be worthy let it be the lack of shield tanks in EVE PvP not the fact the amarr are broken. Its just not true when ECM is what is broken and makes shield tanking very unoptimized. As for shield tanking ships in EVE? anything with 4+ midslots with a bonus, or 5+ midslots with no bonus can be a shield tanker. Quite a few ships in the game that fall in this category.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:54:00 -
[206]
It's not that easy.
Take a dominix, for example. 5 meds, 7 lows. So it "should" be a viaable shieldtanker if ECM is nerfed. Exept it won't, and thats ignoring that it has a good amount more armor than shields. Shieldtank on it would not only mean no EW but also no ab/mwd, no warp disruptor, no cap booster and no webber. For it's lows it can fit damagemods (usually won't since drones are the only dps) and/or an armor rep. Now what would be leaps and bounds more effective? ECM is not the only reason why have so few armortankers in PvP.
Also, I did not say Amarr are broken. EM damage is due to this (and the "introduction" of an viaable omnires armor harderner in RMR), though. One option would be to change a good amount of ships to shieldtankers, the other to balance out the EM resists on armor. Like moving 10-15% from armor to shield. Which is what seems to me the best solution for this.
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.22 09:17:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Parallax Error The *only* current problems with Amarr ships are this:
1) Since the 2 x EANM2 and 1DC tank became better than a 3 x hardener tank for all round resists, Amarr damage has approximately dropped by a third versus a good proportion of most normally encountered setups in PvP.
2) Khanid ships have no real flavour to them, I think a much better general line for them would be the armour tanking and missile using ships.
I would add: 3) T2 crystals need to be cheaper with fewer shots to make fitting (and losing!) more affordable. Currently Amarr have the worst of both worlds with both finite shots and expense of purchase. Losing a T2-fitted Amarr BS hurts a lot more than losing one of another race.
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.24 17:48:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Warnings on 24/08/2006 17:48:28 T2 crystal need a production too too too too and too high !!!
6 crystal day = 2 days for fitt 1 arma or 1 apoc // you compare with another ammo. How much you can fitt a ship with 5k of ammo ? 25 ships for 0.7 amarr ship ?
CCP, you have tested the amarr ??? But not one ship T2 ! ALL SHIPS AND ALL TURRETS !
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:12:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2006 12:12:39 The cargoholds of amarr ships are already smaller since they do not extra space for ammo.
For example: Prophecy: 350 m¦, Cyclone: 475 m¦
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:19:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Aramendel It's not that easy.
Take a dominix, for example. 5 meds, 7 lows. So it "should" be a viaable shieldtanker if ECM is nerfed. Exept it won't, and thats ignoring that it has a good amount more armor than shields. Shieldtank on it would not only mean no EW but also no ab/mwd, no warp disruptor, no cap booster and no webber. For it's lows it can fit damagemods (usually won't since drones are the only dps) and/or an armor rep. Now what would be leaps and bounds more effective? ECM is not the only reason why have so few armortankers in PvP.
I think you are making some bold absolutes. You keep saying won't like people are reading your words as gospel. There is nothing wrong with a dominix shield tanker, active OR passive. There is this little idea of opportunity cost that most people will not take the next best alternative to ECM, which is sheild tanking.
The dominix is very versatile of a ship. May I remind you that more HP on a certain stat, such as armor HP vs shield HP, doesn't dictate the role it lives in. If that were so the Typhoon would be a shield tanker. No, infact the stats would suggest the dominix could live as both a shield tanker ( high CPU + 5 Mids + fitting free damage source ) and an armor tanker. Just as it can live as a gun ship or a drone ship or both.
Infact, if CCP wanted to really shake things up the domi would loose its gun bonus and pick up an RSD bonus.
All that being said... opportunity cost is the biggest issue here not so much as what dps a laser can do vs armor.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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