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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.15 22:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 15/08/2006 22:53:08 I'm not sure why this thread has not received any response from CCP, but it is quite obvious that Amarr ships leave something to be desired generally right now.
Stated in This Thread (which has 62 pages by the way):
*********************************************************** 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
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Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training amarr skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?
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Pyxee
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:01:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:07:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus.
By the same logic, the rof + damage bonuses for minmatar ships are crap too, since they are what make minmatar ships usable. In fact, amarr have it better than minmatar or gallente as you can work around bad ship skills more easily.
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed.
They need a bit of tweaking, which could be compatible with "not being nerfed".
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam.
Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's completely broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid and low slot layout on ships and mid an low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types. You want to adress the most obvious symptoms but the problem would stay.
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs.
Figures agree with you
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
You don't really see "specific" tanks anyway, unless fighting npc'ers, so it's a bit moot. You could complain about the armor resistances of the muninn, but probably not as much as minmatar pilots, so... o.-
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
I'm not sure about what you mean, autocannons are terrible without two damage bonuses (or rof + damage) so if it works, it's only because you have lot of turret hardpoints... which means that lasers are still ahead (accounting for my previous answers, of course). I'm not saying that the maller is awesome though.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Asestorian
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:08:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Asestorian on 15/08/2006 23:08:16
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Well, for many of the posts in linked long thread, its basically saying that EM (especially on armour tanks, with EANMIIs) is an extremely easy damage type to tank against, negating almost completely high level of raw DPS the lasers do.
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:10:00 -
[5]
The Amarr are unhappy because they only have 2 damage types on their guns. This sets them apart from the Caldari, who only have 2 damage types on their guns, and the Gallente, who only have 2 damage types on their guns. The Minmatar also have only 2 damage types on their guns if they use T2 ammo, although they do have more options at T1.
The problem with Amarr damage types is not that they have too few options; they just don't like the ones they have, because everybody resists EMP.
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Certianly, ill go by race:
Amarr: Racial weapon - lasers EM & THERMAL damge only
Caldari: Racial weapon - missles ANY damage type Racial weapon - Hybrids KINETIC + THERMAL
Gallente: Racial weapon - Drones ANY damage type Racial weapon - Hybrids KINETIC + THERMAL
Minmatar: Racial weapon - guns ANY Damage type
Does that explain it enough?
To top it all off- Amarr - armor tank Gallente - armor tank Minmatar - armor tank Caldari - shield tank
most armor has VERY high EM resist natrually
so Amarr are screwed again
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Pyxee
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pyxee on 15/08/2006 23:15:26
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Certianly, ill go by race:
Amarr: Racial weapon - lasers EM & THERMAL damge only
Caldari: Racial weapon - missles ANY damage type Racial weapon - Hybrids KINETIC + THERMAL
Gallente: Racial weapon - Drones ANY damage type Racial weapon - Hybrids KINETIC + THERMAL
Minmatar: Racial weapon - guns ANY Damage type
Does that explain it enough?
To top it all off- Amarr - armor tank Gallente - armor tank Minmatar - armor tank Caldari - shield tank
most armor has VERY high EM resist natrually
so Amarr are screwed again
Do you even play this game? Sticking by the whole "GALLENTE USE DRONES LOL" thing still is shortsighted. Any race can use drones and there are actually very few Gallente ships that get bonuses to drones. Hence, drones count for all races which automatically renders your entire point moot. I might add that any ship that does get bonuses to drones, gets "nerfed" in another area.
As for your second little list, you do know that Minnies tank both shield and armor, right, depending on the ship?
Originally by: Guurzak The Minmatar also have only 2 damage types on their guns if they use T2 ammo, although they do have more options at T1.
Might also add that the ammo types that do three types of damage do considerably less damage per type than the other race's ammo, which unfortunately makes 1/3 or 2/3 depending on the ship and ammo automatically tanked by whatever you shoot at.
So ACTUALLY, the ones who SHOULD be complaining, are Minmatar newbies. :)
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:14:00 -
[8]
last problem you forgot abt: khanids
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 15/08/2006 23:14:42
Originally by: Guurzak The problem with Amarr damage types is not that they have too few options; they just don't like the ones they have, because everybody resists EMP.
The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.
Few would bother armor hardening against EM if it weren't a side effect of EANM and DCs.
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pyxee Edited by: Pyxee on 15/08/2006 23:15:26 Do you even play this game? Sticking by the whole "GALLENTE USE DRONES LOL" thing still is shortsighted. Any race can use drones and there are actually very few Gallente ships that get bonuses to drones. Hence, drones count for all races which automatically renders your entire point moot. I might add that any ship that does get bonuses to drones, gets "nerfed" in another area.
...
you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!
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Pyxee
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!
If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:26:00 -
[12]
That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.
There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!
If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".
While I don't approve of unspecific whining without suggestions, I do feel the need to point out that Gallente not only have drone specific ships, they have larger drone bays in general than thier racial counterparts. Megathron/thorax are good examples of gunships that have large dronebays and thusly, more ability to vary damage type.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Pyxee
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!
If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".
While I don't approve of unspecific whining without suggestions, I do feel the need to point out that Gallente not only have drone specific ships, they have larger drone bays in general than thier racial counterparts. Megathron/thorax are good examples of gunships that have large dronebays and thusly, more ability to vary damage type.
Nyxus
But the thing is, it isn't enough to list them as an ENTIRE ADDITIONAL SET OF DAMAGE TYPES, while leaving it out for every other race.
And as for missiles, you can either improve two types or use all four and gimp yourself in all, it's not even comparable because they only do one damage type each.
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korrey
Level Five
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.
There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.
If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r.
Alright first. Gallente. Dominix. Vexor. Ishtar. And frigates dont count. So other than the vexor and domi and ishtar theres the thorax and mega and demios.(Im not uncluing the ships that suck at pvp like exequror.)
Thats 50% of Gallente ships that use drones. Id say that warrants Drones as one of their primary weapons dont you?
Next...Amarr. Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.
Or better yet do this. Get any amarr ship other than the Geddon and fit it with Lasers. Then go to 0.0 alone and try and kill ANYTHING your size. PvP = amarr sucks. PvE= Amarrs great...WONDERFUL! I spec'd in Amar so I could kill 6/10 plex's and 0.0 spawns! woo hoo!
fix it...
If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:39:00 -
[16]
You do realise minmatar get a choice of damage (limited compared to missiles) due to low damage?
Short sighted whines like this topic and the other topic are why dev's won't reply. The few valid points are ruined by completely biased whines trying to make out the whole race is screwed up.
Quality > Quantity. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: korrey
Next...Amarr. Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.
I'd look out with this statement. Amarr still have Curse in their arsenal.
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Pyxee
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:49:00 -
[18]
I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?
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Kulmid
Dummies
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
Gallente: Racial weapon - Drones ANY damage type Racial weapon - Hybrids KINETIC + THERMAL
drone ships are pretty much limited to thermal and kinetic dmg when it comes to drones, the other drones DPS is just well, sad thus, making Gallente Kinetic/Thermal all the way
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.15 23:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Pyxee I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?
Compared to ... ? Or maybe in their own class?
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.
There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.
QFT
Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else .
There is only one RACE to RULE them all which is Jovians and no one will ever play with them as far as i can see ! "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 00:10:05
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else.
The fact you had to bring T2 in as your example pretty much says it all.
I'm not even going to comment on the two damage type assertion for Caldari, or the dismissal of Kin/Therm as preferable to EM/Therm. I'll just list the resistances for the T1 ship which best supports your argument (Gallente, let's take a Megathron) with the most common tank: 2 EANM, 1 DC.
EM: 80% Expl: 54% Kin: 67% Therm: 67%
It's easy to make convincing sounding arguments in such a short space, but it's just as easy for me to debunk them.
Edit: Incidentally, I'm not in favour of or trying to elicit a dev response on the subject. I'm in the firm belief that they will comment when and if they feel it's worthwhile and ready, and if they don't I'll continue to play Amarr anyway. I just really, really hate bad arguments.
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 00:10:05
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else.
The fact you had to bring T2 in as your example pretty much says it all.
I'm not even going to comment on the two damage type assertion for Caldari, or the dismissal of Kin/Therm as preferable to EM/Therm. I'll just list the resistances for the T1 ship which best supports your argument (Gallente, let's take a Megathron) with the most common tank: 2 EANM, 1 DC.
EM: 80% Expl: 54% Kin: 67% Therm: 67%
It's easy to make convincing sounding arguments in such a short space, but it's just as easy for me to debunk them.
Edit: Incidentally, I'm not in favour of or trying to elicit a dev response on the subject. I'm in the firm belief that they will comment when and if they feel it's worthwhile and ready, and if they don't I'll continue to play Amarr anyway. I just really, really hate bad arguments.
Mmm whats wrogn with T2 ???
Based on ur mega setup u just mentioned although i am not sure of the stats but anywhooo Em is tough on armour fine but what about 0% on shields ? Amarr guns rip shields asap and then chew slower on armour, Hybrid guns will take lesser tiem to chew on shields due to basic resists on shields due to kin and thermal resists so it is balanced , dont see ur argument at all except that u want lasers to shoot all dmg types to be a cookie cutter which will never happen coz it will be an imbalance. "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: inSpirAcy The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.
NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop. "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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Byzan Zwyth
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 -
[25]
I'm not sure about the "damage" issues but one obvious problem that canĘt really be argued against as far as I can see is fitting costs and cap use of lasers. I donĘt see that the advantage of not using amo makes up for that at all. crystals get very $$$ as well. So laser users end carrying a much greater investment into battle.
Then again I am fairly new to the game. I wanted to fly Amarr ships and zap people but I ran into this problem and gave up on amarr. Now with my skills trained up for another race That problem has vanished and I get a damage bonus for my ship skill and not a weapon cap reduction that did not really help. And the only drawback is that I have to stock up on amo when I dock... So what...
When in a fight a little extra cargo space is the last advantage you want.
---------------------- Gallente Cruiser Pilot |
korrey
Level Five
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: korrey on 16/08/2006 00:24:52
Originally by: Pyxee I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?
Your mis-informed. Anyone who mentions that Amarr T2 ships are horrible deserve only the gallows. But T1 vs T1? Amarr will lose every time. The only VERY good T1 ships are the Pilgrim (with good skills) and the Armageddon which bonus's actually APPLY to something useful. The Apocs cap bonus is crap. Add a cap injector or CPR and your already doing better than the Apoc.
T1 ships though. Omen < Thorax, Omen < Vexor, Omen < Caracal, Omen < Rupture, Omen < stabber.
But dont fear Amarr pilots! I inform all of you through extensive testing that our prize ship, the Omen CAN and is EASILY capable of beating the Exequror in all its mining glory, the Osprey in its split system-ness and even the mighty augoror... **
**(Note that you must have a minimum of 10million skillpoints to take out the Osprey and possibly more to break the Exequrors structure tank...)
If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates |
inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Mmm whats wrogn with T2 ???
Because I could pull out a T2 ship with insane EM/Therm resists as well and it'd prove nothing. The majority of fights in EVE are between T1 ships and that's where most gripes lie.
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Based on ur mega setup u just mentioned although i am not sure of the stats but anywhooo Em is tough on armour fine but what about 0% on shields ?
This has been covered in another thread (search for "Amarr and PvP" to read detailed arguments) but it breaks down into two problems. 0% resist is low enough that a double Invul tank often warrants a specific EM hardener anyway, but that's not the primary argument. (nor particularly convincing for me)
At the moment the main argument is that EVE in its present state heavily favours armor tanked PvP, mainly due to the EW imbalances. Amarrians may have an advantage against shield tanked ships, but when they're primarily going up against armor tankers the argument is moot. This is a point raised earlier in the thread, that fixing the root of these problems - EW, mostly - is a better solution than fixing the symptoms (that EM currently sucks as a primary damage).
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel except that u want lasers to shoot all dmg types to be a cookie cutter which will never happen coz it will be an imbalance.
Now you're just putting words into my mouth that are patently wrong. I am completely against additional damage types for lasers.
Don't pick up some whiner's argument and put it forward as mine.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Originally by: inSpirAcy The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.
NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop.
I didn't say a passive tank gives you higher resists (although it does give you a higher average of resists).
The virtual capless factor was also a heavy encouragement in this direction. Here I'm just pointing out why few saw a problem with lasers until relatively recently, not that this is the root of the problems or related to a fix.
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Sarah Aubry
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Originally by: inSpirAcy The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.
NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop.
Normally on an armor tank (pre ean2's) people fitted 1kin 1exp 1therm t2 hardner. Now instead they fit 3x ean2 (which IS more than the actives) or 2x ean2+dc which is for a lot of purposes a more balanced tank. |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.
i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.
in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.
being restricted in what you can throw at an enemy makes you predictable. in the case of lasers it makes you predicatable and easy to counter. (note: not talking about how you dont even need to spealize against laser damage to be tanked well against it.)
being easy to predict and counter does in turn make you "less effective" should you decide to fight against somewhat skilled/intelligent opponents.
seeing how your in charge of writing all those nifty little eon guides i thought you would actually know that much.
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:55:00 -
[31]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
At the moment the main argument is that EVE in its present state heavily favours armor tanked PvP, mainly due to the EW imbalances. Amarrians may have an advantage against shield tanked ships, but when they're primarily going up against armor tankers the argument is moot. This is a point raised earlier in the thread, that fixing the root of these problems - EW, mostly - is a better solution than fixing the symptoms (that EM currently sucks as a primary damage).
Don't pick up some whiner's argument and put it forward as mine.
EM as priamry DMG type , SO what ? Galalnet have thermal , mini have expl , caldari have kinetic , thats how the races are set . EM does most dmg on shield , lasers have highest base dmg on shields but less on armour !! I aint puttign words in ur mouth or pickign winning arguments i am stating my point of view and what i understand of what u say.
Basic dmg on shields for expl dmg is 60% just like EM is 60% on armour so mini pilots who use Expl dmg as primary should complain also wotn u agree???
As for mega havign 0 EM% and its shield gettign eaten asap by lasers then slower on armour , what exactly is ur point on fitting invul fields fit ?? shield tank a mega in addtion to armour also or am i gettign this wrong ? "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.16 00:55:00 -
[32]
Laser damage type is far from being the real "amarr issue". Amarr just got 2 main issues - lack of med slots for ECM and crappy natural resist to ECM. The most successful battleships in game are the ones that can fit most ECM - Raven, Tempest, Dominix. If it was up to me, I'd make Amarr the strongest anti-ECM race while Caldari being the weekest. That would balance things out, since Caldari would have best ECM offense with weakest ECM defense while Amarr would have best ECM defense with weakest ECM offense.
As far as smaller ships go, Amarr seems to be ok
Currrent state of ECM is probably the reason Amarr bs aren't popular in pvp
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Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union
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Posted - 2006.08.16 01:28:00 -
[33]
I'm exclusively an Amarr frig pilot, I plan to branch out eventually, but for now, I'm all Amarr and all frig. Someone mentioned the Malediction and Crusader. I want someone to tell me a situation in which either of these would be preferred over the Crow, Taranis, or Claw. A corpmate of mine and I started playing within one day of each other. Our learning skills are identical. Our gunnery skills are almost identical (mine are slightly better because he trained mediums a bit). Our drone skills are identical. He has slightly better nav skills. I have more missile skills. He can pirate solo in his interceptor. I must be a part of a gang (even then, I'm more of an extra annoyance to the prey). The difference?
Me = Amarr He = Gallente
Taranis > Crusader + Malediction
We sparred once. Taranis vs Malediction. I was hitting him constantly from the begining of the battle. Neither of us were webbed. My lasers didn't miss once, nor did my rockets. The only thing hitting me were his drones. He told me he'd engage his web. I engaged mine first, the damage didn't change. I never pierced his shields (untanked inty taking em/thermal damage?). He engaged his web, and I was in a pod two cycles later. He had no intention of destroying my ship. His damage output was so ridiculous, that he ripped me from 90% shields to pod in six seconds. It happened so quickly that his tactical display reported me as being at 50% armor when my pod warped away. It wasn't until he noticed my can there that he realized I was gone.
I will admit, I'd have to add the Punisher to the list of good t1 ships.
Sooooo what's our count at?
Daisetsunamono, protect my balls! Boku ga warui, so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.16 01:37:00 -
[34]
I am also atm completly amarr + frig, the intys are pretty sad atm, but the retribution is pretty nice for pve...not that it means much
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Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union
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Posted - 2006.08.16 01:49:00 -
[35]
Yeah, I also use my AF for PvE...
Too bad I'm trying to gear up for PvP.
It's a good thing my Vengeance God-tanks against the Angel Cartel, or I'd have no isk at all.
Aww, I just made myself sad.
Daisetsunamono, protect my balls! Boku ga warui, so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:07:00 -
[36]
The *only* current problems with Amarr ships are this:
1) Since the 2 x EANM2 and 1DC tank became better than a 3 x hardener tank for all round resists, Amarr damage has approximately dropped by a third versus a good proportion of most normally encountered setups in PvP. Thats a hefty hit. This is compounded by a more distant change which moved crystal damage to having proportionally more EM damage, especially in the longer ranges.
2) Khanid ships have no real flavour to them, I think a much better general line for them would be the armour tanking and missile using ships.
If tanking got relooked at slightly so that the 3 specific hardener tank was slightly better for overall resists (taking into account it uses more cap) then the Amarr problem would pretty much dissapear. And i'd love to see armour tanking missile ships for the Khanid.
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Hakera
Minmatar Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:08:00 -
[37]
There is no amarr 'issue' especially not the ones the OP suggests. In the same way i think there is no specific minmatar issues other than some ship stats on the likes of the rupture & varients so I equally ignore the 'Minmatar' thread as well as the points raised there are simply asking for boosts way beyond the current state which is extremely well balanced with only certain combinations of ships & weapon being more effective in certain scenarios than others but that is natural.
regarding the taranis vs crusader, yeh both these intys are popular and you can see why and yes in a slug fight against each other the taranis will win typically. But then taranis have been popular from the time they were made as range is almost never a problem with one. But thats because blasters have always been the best at close range and inties can dictate range or ignore it easily.
My own personal opinions is hybrids are a little too powerful overall in the extremes of range moreso (close and long) but thats my feeling across the whole board of different strategies and setups Ive seen but its not really a big issue atm.
You cant just make a whine thread and expect change. You have to back it up with real data and informed opinion.
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:10:00 -
[38]
Originally by: korrey If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r.
I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.
in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.
No that is not what I mean. I was referring to the Amarr combat philosophy of directness, not anything to do with damage types. In other words their ships will win a fight because they can either outgun you or out-tank you, not pull fancy trickery.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:29:00 -
[39]
Originally by: korrey
If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r.
Next...Amarr. Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.
I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.
Exp resist sucks ?? Amarr ships VS minmatar one ?? What exactly your trying to prove here ??? Amarr ships are weak on exp arm resist 10%and have 60% em resist , same as minmatar and gallnt and caldari just like all races have 0% em on shields and 60% expl with exception to T2 ships. Amarr eats shield fast , minmatar eat arm fast its balanced.
This is not WOW or Diablo where ur supposed to have a ship thats l333t and owns anything it engages.
I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.
Exp resist sucks ?? Amarr ships VS minmatar one ?? What exactly your trying to prove here ??? Amarr ships are weak on exp arm resist 10%and have 60% em resist , same as minmatar and gallnt and caldari just like all races have 0% em on shields and 60% expl with exception to T2 ships. Amarr eats shield fast , minmatar eat arm fast its balanced.
This is not WOW or Diablo where ur supposed to have a ship thats l333t and owns anything it engages.
"What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:29:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 16/08/2006 02:32:34
Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 15/08/2006 23:30:42
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus.
By the same logic, the rof + damage bonuses for minmatar ships are crap too, since they are what make minmatar ships usable. In fact, amarr have it better than minmatar or gallente as you can work around bad ship skills more easily.
the only two viable ships in pvp for amarr ships is the zealot and the geddon(not talking about our drones ships) and they both have rof bonuses. a rof bonus is awsome. its a dmg bonus meaning your actually getting a bonus. our bonus is a 50 less cap use(assuming level5) so we can actually fire our guns. not really a bonus imo
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam.
Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid/low slot layout on ships and mid/low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types. You want to adress the most obvious symptoms but the problem would stay, causing more problems on the way. .
wrong, we have bad dmg since everyone even caldary with the exeption of a few ships armor tanks, and armor tank = eamn2 with massive em resistance. with the state of EW, "as you mentioned" as it is even a raven will armor tank and fit its mid full of jammers. Regardless, the majority of ship still armor tank. Now as per amarr having good tank. right now we have no better tanks that any other race. our supposed great tanking ship(apoc) has a bonus to cap in order to run its tank. Since everyone is using cap booster to counter nos, the cap really makes no difference. to a ship that can't do any dmg anyways and works better using projectiles than laser. so really the apoc has no bonuses
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
You don't really see "specific" tanks anyway, unless fighting npc'ers, so it's a bit moot. You could complain about the armor resistances of the muninn, but probably not as much as minmatar pilots, so... o.- .
your right everyone uses eanm2 tanks so everyone has 75-90% em resistance
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
I'm not sure about what you mean, autocannons are terrible without two damage bonuses (or rof + damage) so if it works, it's only because you have lot of turret hardpoints... which means that lasers are still ahead (accounting for my previous answers, of course). I'm not saying that the maller is awesome though. NB.
he is right there are figure out there. atm do to eanm and the massive cap use of our gun, putting projectiles on amarr ships that do not have bonuses to dmg or rof if more effective
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FraXy
Caldari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:39:00 -
[41]
Not trying to get this into T2 stuff, but IMO Amarr got gimped with Damage Mod stacking nerf.
Especially Zealot, now it got more slots and don`t know what to do with them since fitting more then 3 HS II is a waste and it still does crappy damage even shooing conflagration.
Did the math a time ago and it was correct back then when i did it and i doubt things have changed.
Zealot Damage:
4x Focused Medium Pulse II, DPS only with (Conflagration) and [Scorch], Level 4 skills: 0 HS II = (227) - [168] 1 HS II = (279) - [207] 2 HS II = (321) - [238] 3 HS II = (363) - [270] 4 HS II = (407) - [302]
4x Heavy Pulse II, DPS only with (Conflagration) and [Scorch], Level 4 skills: 0 HS II = (263) - [195] 1 HS II = (323) - [240] 2 HS II = (372) - [276] 3 HS II = (420) - [312] 4 HS II = (471) - [349]
Zealot had 7 slots to pull a gankageddon which was damage mods up the wazoo which is now nerfed.
4 HS II and 4 Heavy Pulse II with 10km optimal doing 471 DPS seems good, but then u have used pretty much all grid and cpu to do so. I`m not saying that it`s totally gimped, but it has lost it`s nichF.
Now over to Sacrilege which is a flying piece of crap, allthough i love the look and the ship in general, but there is now a lot of other HACs/Recons that can tank way better then my poor Sacrilege :(
Tanking was it`s deal, now it can`t do anything..
The whole Khanid design are a piece of crap and the guy that made them must`ve been in a coma when designing..
Sacrilege will get outdamaged by a standard crusader and the tank which a Maller can do almost as good and for a lot cheaper.
Now we got Pilgrim and Curse which are indeed very nice ships, but i didn`t train Amarr Cruiser 5 and Heavy Assault level 4 for nothing.
oh and 90% of the armor tankers use 1-2 Adaptive Membrane II which is 69.6-74.95 EM resist if i have done my math correct.
And now let`s do Amarr T2 vs Minmatarr T2.
Zealot vs Muninn
Zealot dishing out 19149451 DPS vs 95+ EM resist, i might aswell just throw rocks and hope i hit the self-destruct switch...
Sorry about this rant, i do argumentage very badly and i know all races got some issues, but Amarr is the weakest ECM resist in general and their weapons can be made pretty damn useless with 1 tracking disruptor or 2.
Oh and the best tank argument is so far out the window it`s not even funny in these times... I`ll fly my Dominix anyday over the Apocalypse or Armageddon
This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
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Stephar
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:43:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:44:28 Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:43:45
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.
http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=DigitalCommunist
Looks like you fly Gallente.
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.
http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=Yazoul%20Samaiel
And you appear to fly Caldari.
You guys might be fantastic at PvP, but you're not raking up the kills in Amarrian ships.
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 02:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Stephar Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:44:28 Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:43:45
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.
http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=DigitalCommunist
Looks like you fly Gallente.
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.
http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=Yazoul%20Samaiel
And you appear to fly Caldari.
You guys might be fantastic at PvP, but you're not raking up the kills in Amarrian ships.
OMG , i am soo busted , the words "My Second account" Mean anything to ya ???? "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
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Cleron
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:16:00 -
[44]
The big issues with amarr are simple & easy to spot once you start flying them.
1. The bonus to laser weapons cap means you only get one bonus on every ship with it. Having a bonus to "USE" your racial weapons is like having a bonus on another ship to "use" a drone bay or "fit" a cap booster.
2. PG requirements on most lasers are quite frankly crazy. People often have to fit pulse lasers if they want to tank & if they need the range they simply have to lose the tank & even then its some times not enough to get a full fitting.
3. Cap usage. You might have a bonus to weapon cap but when you get to battleships you need every lvl in cap & bs as you can because the "monsters" people call lasers are like demons. A heavy neut blaster uses 18.2 energy a cycle while a tach uses 95. Even with lvl 5 in battleship you still require 2/2.5 times the cap to fire per cycle.
Granted Rails are worse, but lasers still require a lot more to fire per cycle. Because of this after you get over the problems with fitting you are faced with the problem of sustainable fire.... (at least on the Armageddon). Sadly this is why far more Amarr ships are using Ac & Arty. Easy to fit either long or short range set ups with no cap problems and an option of ammo damage type. They might suck damage wise, but for many it's better then what they had before & when people start thinking like that about lasers there has to be at least a few problems.
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Foulis
Minmatar Chosen Path
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:23:00 -
[45]
Originally by: FraXy *Blatant Stupidity*
Your arguement is made invalid by the fact that you were comparing it's damage against a ship specifically designed to tank ammar lasers.
----
Cake > Pie - Imaran Cathath > Imaran - Cathath
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:25:00 -
[46]
Lots of people in our corp fly Amarr, and cant say I have ever heard them moan about them.
And may I say from seeing some of our guys in them, punishers rock, one chap took on two intys and poped them both in his punisher solo earlier for example, and the curse is also an awesome ship, geddon is also awesome, oh and for those using mega as an example of a drone ship and can pick damage type, geddon has the same drone bay.
What I find funny is before the EANM II came out your typical exp,therm,kinetic tank had EM as the lowest resist on shield and armour (this is also still a fairly common tank) while kinetic and thermal were pretty highly resisted on both shield and armour making hybrids pretty sucky, but you didnt see millions of "ZOMG GAL ARE TEH SUCZORS" posts.
Nothing wrong with Amarr as a whole, might be some ships need tweaking, but the same can be said of all of the races, they are all different, they all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, they all have sucky ships live with it, as others have said this isnt WoW, this is EVE online and everything isnt equal and there isnt an ub3r race or an ub3r ship or an ub3r set up that will beat everything else.
Also dont forget not every ship in EVE flys around with 3 EANM II or 2 EANM II and a DC on.
CEO - Art of War
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Double TaP
The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:26:00 -
[47]
I'l come back when this is around 30-40 pages, thats when i know its serious.
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cleron The big issues with amarr are simple & easy to spot once you start flying them.
1. The bonus to laser weapons cap means you only get one bonus on every ship with it. Having a bonus to "USE" your racial weapons is like having a bonus on another ship to "use" a drone bay or "fit" a cap booster.
2. PG requirements on most lasers are quite frankly crazy. People often have to fit pulse lasers if they want to tank & if they need the range they simply have to lose the tank & even then its some times not enough to get a full fitting.
3. Cap usage. You might have a bonus to weapon cap but when you get to battleships you need every lvl in cap & bs as you can because the "monsters" people call lasers are like demons. A heavy neut blaster uses 18.2 energy a cycle while a tach uses 95. Even with lvl 5 in battleship you still require 2/2.5 times the cap to fire per cycle.
Granted Rails are worse, but lasers still require a lot more to fire per cycle. Because of this after you get over the problems with fitting you are faced with the problem of sustainable fire.... (at least on the Armageddon). Sadly this is why far more Amarr ships are using Ac & Arty. Easy to fit either long or short range set ups with no cap problems and an option of ammo damage type. They might suck damage wise, but for many it's better then what they had before & when people start thinking like that about lasers there has to be at least a few problems.
Lower the cap use and and are you willing to lower the damage mod in return?
I have got to laugh when the Ammar pilots whine about thier damage type when remebering the MK2 thread...All the "why should I have to train another weapons system" whinne when the sac was up for disscussion...all the ammar pilots in sarmails khanid thread wanting armour tanking missilebouts also made me laugh a lot for teh same reason... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Cleron
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Posted - 2006.08.16 03:40:00 -
[49]
If the ships don't need to waste 1 bonus on weapons cap & i don't need to worrie about running out of cap just firing my bloody weapons then yes i am. After all chances are some ships could get a rof or damage bonus in replacment anyway.
It would still be nice to see the pg for beams lowered a bit & possible a slight increase in the mega pulse weapon range.
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Talthrus
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 04:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: korrey Edited by: korrey on 16/08/2006 00:24:52
Originally by: Pyxee I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?
Your mis-informed. Anyone who mentions that Amarr T2 ships are horrible deserve only the gallows. But T1 vs T1? Amarr will lose every time. The only VERY good T1 ships are the Pilgrim (with good skills) and the Armageddon which bonus's actually APPLY to something useful. The Apocs cap bonus is crap. Add a cap injector or CPR and your already doing better than the Apoc.
Since when was the Pilgrim T1? Do you mean the Arbi? Some Amarr ships are still quite good but the damage types are harder for Amarr pilots to utilize effectively than they are for other races. ----------------------
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Ecnav
Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:01:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Ecnav on 16/08/2006 05:03:04 It's impossible for focused light to do kinetic and/or explosive damage. (unless you hit a minmatar ammo store or something) __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ I don't have a sig |
Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:12:00 -
[52]
Just do like everybody else and train Caldari. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Tel Bakhara
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:16:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Tel Bakhara on 16/08/2006 05:19:17 Edited by: Tel Bakhara on 16/08/2006 05:17:43 When u NPCing, u kill those of poor EM/Thermal DMG. When U PvPing, your foe tend to have balanced DMG resis that dmg type make no sense.
Yes on random encounter if your foe know that you are Amarr ship u suk But if u are in a frigate, if your foe know that you are frigate u also suk
Shall we reconsider all frigates then?
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Mazer Kt'luthid
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:18:00 -
[54]
Suggestion, what if all ships had their natural EM armor resistances lowered to about 45-50%. It'd still be higher than the natural thermal res, and Minnie T1 ships would have the extra flat 10% boost to their EM resistance, making it about 55-60%.
It would make EANMII tanks less effective at eliminating EM damage, and give back the Amarr's raw DPS superiority that they had prior to the armor resistance skills and the EANMII/DC tanking norm. __________ Spreading the word of Enlightenment with the grace of God and Empire. Lieutenant for the Imperial Navy. |
Tel Bakhara
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:21:00 -
[55]
Hmm I guess this will make EM missles even more popolar
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:37:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Mazer Kt'luthid Suggestion, what if all ships had their natural EM armor resistances lowered to about 45-50%. It'd still be higher than the natural thermal res, and Minnie T1 ships would have the extra flat 10% boost to their EM resistance, making it about 55-60%.
It would make EANMII tanks less effective at eliminating EM damage, and give back the Amarr's raw DPS superiority that they had prior to the armor resistance skills and the EANMII/DC tanking norm.
Fantasic idea...you missed the second part out mind you...increase base shield EM res to what ever amount you lowered the armour res by...Not touching the other ships that have a EM shiiled res...
Or how about GOOD GOD NO... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Serj Darek
Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.16 05:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.
i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.
in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.
being restricted in what you can throw at an enemy makes you predictable. in the case of lasers it makes you predicatable and easy to counter. (note: not talking about how you dont even need to spealize against laser damage to be tanked well against it.)
being easy to predict and counter does in turn make you "less effective" should you decide to fight against somewhat skilled/intelligent opponents.
seeing how your in charge of writing all those nifty little eon guides i thought you would actually know that much.
I think the real reason Amarr is so predictable is beacause they think they're so much better than everyone else! Religious fundamentalists cleansing lasers!
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.16 07:12:00 -
[58]
I knew it was a bad idea to get involved in this thread, but whatever...
Originally by: Commander Thrawn the only two viable ships in pvp for amarr ships is the zealot and the geddon(not talking about our drones ships) and they both have rof bonuses. a rof bonus is awsome. its a dmg bonus meaning your actually getting a bonus. our bonus is a 50 less cap use(assuming level5) so we can actually fire our guns. not really a bonus imo
[shameless troll] the only viable ships in pvp for minmatar ships have rof + damage bonuses or a double damage bonuses. Despite it, our ships have amongst the lowest if not the lowest dps of their class. not really a bonus imo. (See how I just repeated myself).[/shameless troll]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn wrong, we have bad dmg since everyone even caldary with the exeption of a few ships armor tanks, and armor tank = eamn2 with massive em resistance. with the state of EW, "as you mentioned" as it is even a raven will armor tank and fit its mid full of jammers. Regardless, the majority of ship still armor tank. Now as per amarr having good tank. right now we have no better tanks that any other race. our supposed great tanking ship(apoc) has a bonus to cap in order to run its tank. Since everyone is using cap booster to counter nos, the cap really makes no difference. to a ship that can't do any dmg anyways and works better using projectiles than laser. so really the apoc has no bonuses.
That was my point exactly. You get one of the best damage "out of the box", and if it wasn't for ECM and EANM t2, you'd have one of the best damage types. So, whatever you say, your damage is not bad and doesn't need improvement at all. The core issues are different. (See how I just repeated myself again).
Originally by: Commander Thrawn your right everyone uses eanm2 tanks so everyone has 75-90% em resistance
And those who don't have to cope with the guns that have absolutely abnormal range, damage and tracking in the game, and either tank it with their 0% shield EM resistance, either tank it with their native 60% armor resistance (which is under what they get for most other resistances after fitting hardeners). Most of your guns don't need any boosting, at all. There are a few exceptions in the small and med class, that is all.
Originally by: Commander Thrawn he is right there are figure out there. atm do to eanm and the massive cap use of our gun, putting projectiles on amarr ships that do not have bonuses to dmg or rof if more effective
I've seen those silly figures and their are as misleading as figures can be. Most of those setups wouldn't even work on SISI FFA, let alone in any fight on TQ.
And this thread is really a bastard child of the other, the 62 pages long amarr thread, with the same kind of tired poorly though arguments, repeatedly defeated yet always coming back.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 09:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid/low slot layout on ships and mid/low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types.
Problem here is even if every ship "designed" for a shield tank would use one we would have still about 66% armor 33% shieldtanks.
Mainly due to minnie ships being 50:50 armor:shieldtanks, gallente and amarr 100% armor and caldari 100% shieldtanks. Fixing the med/lowslot imbalance will reduce the problem significantly, but not totally solve it.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 09:43:00 -
[60]
While I won't comment on what I think the problem is with the amarrians that post in that disgrace to a already rapidly in quality declining forum section cause that would get me banned in 0 seconds flat for excessive use of profanities... and a couple of other things. I'll say that seeing there's now what 64 pages in these 2 threads filled with "interesting comments" flying amarrian ships certainly doesn't do much good to the brain.
Only point of the OP that has anything meaningful to it is point 4. ( and then only in part, cause "cannot fit ... almost at all" is well a bit "special"
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 09:58:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Wild Rho Most ships that tank tend to have fairly even levels of resistance to all 4 damage types, not just EM. On a serious tank the differences between EM/Therm and the other types is a very small % and hardly significant.
Exept this isn't true anymore. That is the whole point why people started to complain.
This *was* true with a 3 active harderner tank (kin, therm, exp) pre-RMR. But now a 2 EAN2+DC tank now outperforms a 3 active tank in *every*single*aspect.
Well, almost. There are 2 advantages of a 3 active tank, lower price (2 EAN2 and 1 good DC cost about 15-20 mil) and lower SP requirements (hull up 5 and lvl 4 in all armor comp skills). But the first advantage isn't a factor in most setups (especially t2 outfitted BSs) and the latter is insignificant, since stuff is balanced for max SP scenarios.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:22:00 -
[62]
4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:44:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi 4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lord WarATron In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%.
Well, thats a bit of an overexaggeration, at least for shieldtankers. A standart 2 invul, 1 EM setup will end up with a bit over 70% EM resistance. Still the 2nd highest resistance, though - ironically the low shield EM resistance is hurting lasers more than helping them, because people usually use an specific harderner *because* that big EM hole.
Also, thermal resists are considerably lower than EM and lasers still do a good bit of thermal, so the total damage reduction is for EAN2 armor more in the 70% area than in the 80% one. Still more than other weapons, but overexaggerating the problem is just as wrong as denying it.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 10:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Kaylana Syi 4 of my characters can fly amarr tech all the way to battleships. 2 are dedicated Amarr which use t2 guns and ships. There are no more problems with amarr than there is other races. Amarr might have a reason to ask for ships to be reviewed but the amount of whining on these boards are honestly making it a horrible place to post.
If anyone thinks amarr is crap then they have overlooked the omen. Honestly its arguably the best tier 2 cruiser in the game next to the vexor. Amarr get the only good logistics cruiser for tech 1 in the augoror which makes amarr pilots very well rounded in the grand scheme of things.
Amarr damage dealers aren't overly versatile, as DC has stated, but overall if you build a tech 1 fleet from cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships you would be very versatile and complimentary.
If you want to get TUX's attention saying amarr suck isn't the way to do it because its just not true.
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win?
And there you go again, pulling numbers out of a really dark hole.
Who I think is gonna win? The one with the domination webifier, that's who.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:02:00 -
[66]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
No that is not what I mean. I was referring to the Amarr combat philosophy of directness, not anything to do with damage types. In other words their ships will win a fight because they can either outgun you or out-tank you, not pull fancy trickery.
if that would actually work for most of our ships then there wouldnt be a problem.
our way of achieving this directness is to restrict ourself not only to just gank or just gank but in many cases also to just one weapon system which just so happends to be easy to counter with a non-specific tank.
if you look at crusiers for example. the maller (our top tier crusier) has no secondary weapon system at all. an enemy facing a maller will have an easy time tanking its damage and if he even manages to use "fancy trickery" (ecm or tracking disruptors for example) your damage dealing capabilities drop almost to zero. other cruisers which actually have secondary weapon systems would still have some way to get to their enemy while a maller is stuck with sitting there.
now the maller isnt all bad as it can be tanked quiet nicely. the problem there is that its not nearly good enough to give it enough time to slowly kill an equally well fitted/piloted thorax or rupture. add to that that using lasers and trying to get a really good tank doesnt work well together due to their heavy cap/fitting requirements. if you do decide to actually use cruiser sized lasers on your maller your tankability will suffer while the amount of damage gained isnt exactly great. if you decide to use frig sized lasers you have a good chance of using more cap while doing less damage at a shorter range.
the advantage the maller has in tanking isnt good enough to make up for its lack of damage and versatility.
the omen on the other hand is supposed to be our laser-gank cruiser. which in practice means that it has problems fitting heavy lasers and still have any noticable tank at all. in contrast to the maller it does get a small dronebay and a launcher though making it the more versatile of the two.
so the omen would be the cruiser that is supposed to outgun its enemies before they have a chance to kill it. only problem being that you will have a hard time taking down any armortanking ship fast enough. if you really go for gank your armor will fizzle away very quickly and if you try some sort of mixed gank/tank setup your damage output will not be good enough to do said outgunning. the best way to gank an opposing combat crusier would be to catch him afk/not paying attention and hope you can dispatch him before he knows hes under attack.
so yes..most of our ships are suited for either pure ganking or tanking. the problem being that they dont do it good enough to make up for their lack of versatility. (note: no i'm not talking about the geddon here and yes i know its a nice ships)
personally i would prefer it if omen and maller worked more like their t2 versions. with the omen being able to fit heavy lasers and still have some sort of a tank (just enough to actually let it do its ganking part for a bit longer) and the maller being good at tanking while sporting launcher hardpoints and a dronebay.
actually all our supposed tanking ships could use a boost to secondary weapons systems as tanking really good and fireing lasers at the same time doesnt work well at all.
for a nice idea on how to do this have a look at this thread: abaddon proposal
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:08:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Gariuys And there you go again, pulling numbers out of a really dark hole.
Who I think is gonna win? The one with the domination webifier, that's who.
I could turn around and say the one with the ECM Racial would win, but that is moot point. The point I was making is that the damage output is far lower that it should be. Anyhow, even if the geddon had a dom webber, his cap issues means that he cannot sustam that much dps for long without a cap booster, which in turn opens another can of worms.
If you want exact maths then check out the 63page thread where a guy took a balanced approach comparing dps output on ships and shields using standard and non-faction setups. The guy compared pre-rmr damage to post-rmr. This is the correct way to compare, and it shows a big drop in Amarr damage output.
I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:22:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
I do not wish to offend, but if you really beleive that the omen is the best amarr cruiser, that is to say a ship that can barely fit 4 turrets is the way to go then you are making an error of judgment.
The only error is the fact you don't know how to fit an omen. I have absolutely no problems whatsoever fitting my omen w. t2 guns, missiles and drones and achieving around 400dps with em/thermal/explosive damage.
Quote: In PVP, The Average armour tankers EM Resist is around 80%, and the Average PvP Shield Tankers Resists is again around 80%. Dont kid yourself - This is the reality. Check the killboards - Most Amarr kills are done in ships that can chose their damagetype - Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim etc
Killboards aren't the definative 'final word' on things. They are statistics that can be skewed to say anything you want. The fact is that players that armor tank might be able to mitigate em but shield tankers have trouble. If you find shield tankers lacking in PvP then its the player base's fault to an extent not CCP. If you find shield tankers doing mild armor tanks with ECM loaded up then put that to the ECM thread NOT a 'amarr suck' thread. Domi's with NOS and ECM are too damn powerful... and if amarr truely is underrated its for other races opportunity cost being wack not amarr being underpowered.
Quote: So you have a gankageddon doing 1000dps. That gets chopped to 200dps roughly due to resists. Add repair in and you are looking at around 100dps roughly. If your opponent is in a, say, blasterthorn doing 1200dps, who do you think is going to win?
Their is plenty of oportunity for a geddon to still win in this situation. A heavy NOS, ECM drones and a similar mild tank. Problen with these forums is that everything has been fought on paper and not on the server and its pretty laughable...
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:24:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Despite being amarr specialised I've tried to avoid posting in these threads -
However - the answer is "yes, really"
DC and 2 EAN II is a very common fitting for anyone armour tanking. Especially when they have the compensation skills up. The only exception being mission runners who may tank specifically for the damage they will face.
If you are suggesting that it is not a common fit, then either you don't do much PVP or you're fighting some very odd people.
BTW Omen sucks very badly - if you can do enough damage to kill your opponent while keeping yourself alive, I'd suggest you try again with a target older than a week.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: ****c
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, we all know that people use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII & DC since RMR. We all know that means EM resist has shot up from 60% average to closer to 75-80% Average.
O RLY?!
I don't... and I think that is why you are being accused of pulling numbers out your arse.
Despite being amarr specialised I've tried to avoid posting in these threads -
However - the answer is "yes, really"
DC and 2 EAN II is a very common fitting for anyone armour tanking. Especially when they have the compensation skills up. The only exception being mission runners who may tank specifically for the damage they will face.
If you are suggesting that it is not a common fit, then either you don't do much PVP or you're fighting some very odd people.
BTW Omen sucks very badly - if you can do enough damage to kill your opponent while keeping yourself alive, I'd suggest you try again with a target older than a week.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:49:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
snip
Good answer - I suppose if you can't think of an intelligent response, drawing a little face is your only resort.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:09:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ****c
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
snip
Good answer - I suppose if you can't think of an intelligent response, drawing a little face is your only resort.
actually I put a few faces...
and seeming as your post is basically accusing me of being narrow minded while you yourself are assuming a narrow minded perspective... what I posted actually is more relevant than any stats and numbers you could recieve.
Basically you have no imagination... and to be honest this is a worthless thread like the others that have come before it. Noone is willing to see eye to eye and the people that disagree with the OP and their supporter get dismissed as if they had not been playing the same game. There is a bit too much diversity in eve to disregard the amarr ships to the rubbish bin.
So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:13:00 -
[74]
One question for all pilot other than amarr ...
You have a ship T2 with ammo T2 and you try to break the tank of a NPC (Yes a NPC) you fire 10-20min but shield don't down. You don't have the choice to call a friend for kill this npc. He come and shoot without problem the NPC ... Or you take about 10 min for a BS NPC with a bounty of 312k ? (Zealot, conflag M, heavy pulse t2, yes and need to change 2x 4 lences for finish the plex. It's 400k lence x8 = 3m2 for only 1 plex) Try to fly in amarr ship not against blood/sansha but against serpentis/angel/guristas/... After, you come here and you can add post.
And one thing only ... See the price of ubber named turret laser. 4m for a mega beam modulated !!! Yes tachyon is expensive because the aurora L and turret is usable in PvP but before the price was around 7m !
Since 3 years the tayons are not usable !!! See the patch note ... One for reduce CPU, another for reduce PW and finally another for give a little dmg !
1% between the MEGA BEAM and TACHYON since 3 years ! No, I'm sorry but all turrets need change. Radio L with the alone ammo with only 1 DAMAGE !
Fitt a megathron with med turret, it's our life in amarr ship with large turret.
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Kejsar Brutus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:17:00 -
[75]
As someone who's been flying amarr since day one, and who is still a newb at this game, can't fly T2 or use T2 guns, don't have alot of great gunnery skills and so forth and so on, I can honestly say Amarr (in my POV) only have two minor issues.
1. Lower the fitting requirements of lasers a little. Needn't be much, just a little, but as people have mentioned, fitting a full rack of say Tachyon's on a BS or heck, even heavy pulse's (medium guns) on an omen can be quite hard. Very hard. It's not fun when you have to have either a) a gazillion of skills or b) EG upgrades in your lows to fit a decent gunrack.
2. Lower the cap cost for activation just a little. Not much, just a little. Say... 10%? 15 perhaps? That'd make a world of difference when you're trying to sustain that fabled amarr tank, whilst still not making the guns overpowered.
Damage is fine as is. I haven't ever had any real gripes with only having EM / Therm damage as our guns do have nice damage and ROF. It's just that it can be a bit hard to fit and use the guns themselves.
Minmatar ships make chopsticks look like a technological marvel. |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:25:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:27:00 -
[77]
And what use would grid upgrade modules have if noone would need them to fit their setup.... or co-pros for that matter, since several minnie and caldari ships need those..... and gallente ones as well at times or both. Since if you remove one fitting requirement you should remove the other as well... at that note, lets remove all fitting requirements, and all lesser guns. Options are bad. Creativity and brain usage are bad... especially for amarr.
And arma needs injector.... OMFT... so does the damn megathron doing 1200dps... your points are all completely and totally moot. You have no points. You've got made up statistics, bad comparisons, and sucky setups to prove ships suck...
God I even miss Meridius. Atleast he managed to get most of his facts right.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
It's a standard armor tank for BS with 4-5 low slots devoted to their armor tank ( depends on amount of reppers ). Not exactly everybody that is. And then it still only applies to those with high mechanics skills.
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Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:34:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kasak Black on 16/08/2006 12:35:09 I feel Ammarian pilots (myself been one of them) are upset with the larger Ammar ships, especially the Apoc and Geddon is because those ships lack as much flexability as other races.
Ammar BS's are either Tank and do **** poor damage, or Gank and no tank. Also, Ammar are good at some things and great at nothing.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Warnings One question for all pilot other than amarr ...
You have a ship T2 with ammo T2 and you try to break the tank of a NPC (Yes a NPC) you fire 10-20min but shield don't down. You don't have the choice to call a friend for kill this npc. He come and shoot without problem the NPC ... Or you take about 10 min for a BS NPC with a bounty of 312k ? (Zealot, conflag M, heavy pulse t2, yes and need to change 2x 4 lences for finish the plex. It's 400k lence x8 = 3m2 for only 1 plex) Try to fly in amarr ship not against blood/sansha but against serpentis/angel/guristas/... After, you come here and you can add post.
And one thing only ... See the price of ubber named turret laser. 4m for a mega beam modulated !!! Yes tachyon is expensive because the aurora L and turret is usable in PvP but before the price was around 7m !
Since 3 years the tayons are not usable !!! See the patch note ... One for reduce CPU, another for reduce PW and finally another for give a little dmg !
1% between the MEGA BEAM and TACHYON since 3 years ! No, I'm sorry but all turrets need change. Radio L with the alone ammo with only 1 DAMAGE !
Fitt a megathron with med turret, it's our life in amarr ship with large turret.
sorry but tachs are not useless... laser prices are deflated because sansha space is riddled with NPCers. I myself supply 100's of millions in modulated lasers to the domain market.
one of the 'few' standing things that 'need' to be reviewed are small laser pg cost.
If you want to bring NPCing into EVE then I will have to point you to the PvE logic that dictates each race is given an NPC faction that best suits its own damage type. There is no reason why amarr whould get more than 2 NPC factions. Especially since those NPCs drop the most valuabel loot in the game for refines AND you don't need ammo vs them.
Do you really want to walk into a debate without ammunition to your argument... well atleast you have the amarr spirit for no ammo use down... get a clue next.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kasak Black Edited by: Kasak Black on 16/08/2006 12:35:09 I feel Ammarian pilots (myself been one of them) are upset with the larger Ammar ships, especially the Apoc and Geddon is because those ships lack as much flexability as other races.
Ammar BS's are either Tank and do **** poor damage, or Gank and no tank. Also, Ammar are good at some things and great at nothing.
Geddon has little flexibility in it's mids.. However it's drone bay, and nice selection of highs and lows provide a lot of flexibility in the tank/gank area.
Apoc has it's usses as well, it's a good grid heavy ship. With the interesting plus that it can use all guns equally well/bad Since it gets no damage related bonus to lasers. Making for some nasty suprises.
If flexibility in the mids you want, wrong race flying you are. This should have been clear when you started training for them.
amarr are gank/tank, with a sprinkling of nos and drones. If that's not your style. FLY SOMETHING ELSE...
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
I'd like to know why you think they are... since your only so called proof are kill boards which cannot realistically be used as exact data.
NOR can you tell me why you should be entitled to targets of opportunity that tank what you don't fire so that you can easily have battles in your favor.
Maybe you and all the goddamn whiners should start making decisions about where you pvp based on what targets are available compared to what ships and weapons your pvp groups use... then come back and ***** and moan if there is something to ***** and moan about.
It be too damn inconvienent to do that then crank out another boohoo thread. And that is all these posts are. Why haven't the devs replyed to you before they went on vacation... because they can see outside the box on one hand and on schedule to release kali on the other.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:02:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Zanarkand on 16/08/2006 13:02:27 Mutlifreq M
Base shield dmg: 22.0 Base Armor dmg: 12.1
EMP M
Base shield dmg: 15.6 Base armor dmg: 14.2
Fusiom M
Base shield dmg: 8.8 Base armor dmg: 17.4
Scourge Heavy Missle
Base shield dmg: 90 Base armor dmg: 112.5
Antimatter Charge M
Base shield dmg: 16.4 Base armor dmg: 17.0
2 EANMII+DCU/2 INVUL2 tank more or less halves all of those values... It is obvious to see that Amarr will have problems with armor tanks. The dmg would balance out vs a non-tanked target, but ammos go like this:
1. very good vs shield, weak vs armor(multifreq M) 2. very good vs armor, weak vs shield(fusion M) 3. good vs both(hybrids, emp M)
That itself shouldn't be too bad idea for balance... but the issue is that 70% of the ships have slot layouts from armortanks, and even many of the shieldtank ships prefer to go the ecm + armortank route.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:11:00 -
[84]
Let us also consider :
a) the guns those ammos are used in
i) tracking ii) damage modifiers iii)ammo consumption
b) the ships those guns go on
i) slots to supplement gun defficiency ii) modules needed to supplement gun defficiency iii) cargo hold for ammo or *lackthereof* iv) secondary and tertiary weapon systems available
c) all the different scenarios that can come from a and b
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 12:26:40
Originally by: Kaylana Syi ..So with that... _|_ and boooohoooohoooohoooohoooo I am toooooooooo scared to goooooo find some shield tanking victims in another area of EVE thus all my dmg are belong to tank.... whaaaahhaahahahaha11!!!!!!!!!whambulancelevenbbqxplo17stavrossaveus
How old are you? 13?
So Amarr is the race you use go ganking NPCing ravens and run from all other ships? Good to have this cleared up.
Oh, and please tell us mortals why a 2 EAN2 + DC tank isn't a standart armor tank. We would really like a bit of your wisodm.
I'd like to know why you think they are... since your only so called proof are kill boards which cannot realistically be used as exact data.
NOR can you tell me why you should be entitled to targets of opportunity that tank what you don't fire so that you can easily have battles in your favor.
Maybe you and all the goddamn whiners should start making decisions about where you pvp based on what targets are available compared to what ships and weapons your pvp groups use... then come back and ***** and moan if there is something to ***** and moan about.
It be too damn inconvienent to do that then crank out another boohoo thread. And that is all these posts are. Why haven't the devs replyed to you before they went on vacation... because they can see outside the box on one hand and on schedule to release kali on the other.
Kaylana - it is very simple why EAN II's + DC are more popular than specific hardners.
- Takes WAY less CPU to fit
- Uses no cap
- Hull resists give the equivalent to a built in plate without using a 4th slot
- Even only moderate sp investment into armor comp skills nets 48% resists to ALL damage types, not just one, two, or three
- DC is on a different stacking slot than EANs, and gives some shield resists too
Truly, for pvp anyone who is armor tanking and *NOT* using EanIIs +DC is an idiot. NPCing is the only place that it may make more sense to use stacked specific hardeners.
So Kaylana Syi, why would anyone use a 3 slot, or 3 hardener 1 plate 4 slot "traditional" armor tank when EanIIs + DC are pretty much superior in every way? I can't produce specific numbers on who uses what - but I can use logic to deduce this:
Most pvp armor tanks will fit whatever provides the most defense with the fewest slots. Most pvp armor tanks will fit the mods with the lowest fitting requirements as they can. Therefore most pvp armor tanks will fit an EANII + DC armor tank.
I know you can't provide any numbers as to how many fit specific hardeners just as no one else can provide the exact numbers as to who fits EANIIs and DC. But can you provide *ANY* reasoning on why people would fit specific hardeners? Because honestly they are inferior in every way to EANIIs. Perhaps I could better understand your conclusion if you could show the thought process that lead you to it.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:34:00 -
[86]
We can go in circles all day... and I really hope we do so the thread will be locked...
but to answer your questions *somewhat* is because
a) not everyone has hull upgrades 5 or teh compensations to 5
b) not everyone fits for a 1 vs 1 which is what you are fitting for
In a fleet battle its not going to help you much if at all... so you are really posting setups that are very 'self' oriented not 'gang' oriented thus really disrepecting the entire balance argument. Moreover, amarrians have been and always will be the anti-shield combat.
You all are totally ignoring the great ships in amarr line up and the ignoring the fact that ECM is going to be gutted. Lets not forget that amarr will have a devestating ewar at that time vs the gallente turrets and caldari railboats.
When confronted with the 'shield tanker's are your primary target' the defense is the tired ECM + Armor tank which is a plauge on all races. When it is all said and done... and ECM is fixed... amarr can take pride in being the race that was the most pure in the great ECM escapade.
Until then... grass will always be greener but in reality all the races have their hiccups. Walk in my minmatar shoes one the same low SP requirement can be devestating on amarr paths... then come talk.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:39:00 -
[87]
I'm growing tired of this arguement. The OP is just stupid IMO. Amarr are not screwed totally. But people have to realize that Amarr, unlike the other races, is focused only on lasers and that EANMII+DC tanks have made lasers much less effective in PvP. And when Amarr are doing sub-par damage with their lasers - the only thing they're supposed to be good at - you will get lots of unhappy people.
I still use and love my amarr ships, I like to sacrifice versatility for great damage and tanks but recently that damage isn't really great. That's why you see so many Amarrians using the curse and pilgrim recently.
Anyway, Amarr are not totally screwed but EANMII+DC has made them rather tame. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 13:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dixon I'm growing tired of this arguement. The OP is just stupid IMO. Amarr are not screwed totally. But people have to realize that Amarr, unlike the other races, is focused only on lasers and that EANMII+DC tanks have made lasers much less effective in PvP. And when Amarr are doing sub-par damage with their lasers - the only thing they're supposed to be good at - you will get lots of unhappy people.
I still use and love my amarr ships, I like to sacrifice versatility for great damage and tanks but recently that damage isn't really great. That's why you see so many Amarrians using the curse and pilgrim recently.
Anyway, Amarr are not totally screwed but EANMII+DC has made them rather tame.
Ah well you can always come shoot me, I still run tanks that harden equally against all damage types.
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:20:00 -
[89]
Quote: sorry but tachs are not useless... laser prices are deflated because sansha space is riddled with NPCers. I myself supply 100's of millions in modulated lasers to the domain market.
It's because nothing buy this gun !!! PvP = Tachyon and PvE =! BS amarr (it's not possible to play with this ship too long for shoot a NPC.
Quote: If you want to bring NPCing into EVE then I will have to point you to the PvE logic that dictates each race is given an NPC faction that best suits its own damage type. There is no reason why amarr whould get more than 2 NPC factions. Especially since those NPCs drop the most valuabel loot in the game for refines AND you don't need ammo vs them.
Stop ! I prefer buy X ammo which don't make damage or canno't shoot the NPC. I use T2 ammo and take damage 1h30 your lence explode. 3m2, it's expensive. How many you pay for make a plex with missile, projo or hybrid ? (not t2, for can make plex only ... 200k ? my 3m2 because make too time for shoot and my lence explode very very quickly see the price of lence !!!!) If you don't fitt this lence you canno't shoot the NPC ! And I'm sorry but blood ans shansha aren't only for amarr, serpentis for gallente, ... A ship must can shoot all NPC ! And gallente, calda and minma can shoot all NPC only amarr canno't shoot all NPC. The problem is here and with a full dmg fitting armagueddon, you make 100-200 dmg max per gun. With a megathron (I have tested), 300 dmg per gun and you have one more gun !!! You don't need tank, you kill npc before the npc shoot lol A arma haven't the choice to tank. My arma full damage on a guristas take more time than a raven t1 with t1 torp.
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Ujio Noki
Puppets on Steroids Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:26:00 -
[90]
there's an Amarr issue? |
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Ujio Noki there's an Amarr issue?
Yeah, and the guy posting before you gives a awesome display of what the problem is...
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Ishmael Hansen
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:35:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ujio Noki there's an Amarr issue?
Want to trade Caldari 29m sp character able to fly NH with one able to fly Absolution.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:35:00 -
[93]
OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
CEO - Art of War
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:36:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
No no, we should balance ships so they can wtfpwn the ships that are their strongest opponents, cause how else could they.... hmmm... nope doesn't make much sense.
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Powder Monkey
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
Idiot.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:39:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
There are sensible solutions put forward in that big 63 page thread - Let the compensation skills boost active hardners so people move back to active hardning insted of EANMII's and then the balance is restored. But if that happened, every non-amarr pilot would scream blue murder that their dps output has shot down. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:47:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 14:48:37
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
a) not everyone has hull upgrades 5 or teh compensations to 5
b) not everyone fits for a 1 vs 1 which is what you are fitting for
a) Thats like saying "not everyone is using t2 ammo". Which is true, too. But, surprisingly, it has rather massive effects on the game. Because eventually people DO train for them (and this requires a good more effort than hull up 5). And the compensation skills work just fine with them at lvl 4 only. In fact the 48% number is for them at lvl4. With lvl 5 they are 49.5%.
and b)... That is a pretty standard setup for everything but fleet combat. And fleet combat isn't even close to being the majority of all PvP.
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:13:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 16/08/2006 16:13:43 I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:29:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 16:31:47
Quote: I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
Exactly - I have made this point a number of times. There are only 2 solutions that I have suggested in the past that actually make sence and can solve this issue.
1. Active hardners to get bonus's from compensation skills. So insted of 55%, they are pumped upto 65-70% *Advantages: People go back to 3 hardner setip *Disadvantages: This Transfers the issue of compensation effecting em-turrets to Compensation effecting non-em turrets. Balance issue is simply tranfered from amarr to other races. The issue will still exist.
2. Give the Amarr Tier3 BS 7/8 Launchers, but a 10% Per level bonus to EM Damage only. This idea of mine was build on the original idea by Nyxus that made a very good case of giving the Abaddon launchers, and building on that excellent idea was my suggestion of the 10% per level to EM missiles only. *Advantages: Makes EM damage type a viable setup from a specialised ship. Will not be able to tank in a damage setup, nor will it outclass the raven unique point of gank and tank (Quite why people think a tier 2 BS should outclass a Racial Damage specilised Tier 3 BS is anyones guess). With the bonus, and 8 launchers, this ship would have the same output as 12 EM torps, however, the low CPU means that on other damage types, it only has the output of 8 torps, and will have great difficulty fitting the ballistics that the ravens 7.5 torp output can spam with. *Disadvantages: Introduces another missile spammer ingame. Players will need to train another skillset
To be honest, I would prefer option 2, and I dont mind training up missiles, since most amarr pilots I know are training up Projectiles anyway! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.16 16:59:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 17:04:13
Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 16/08/2006 16:13:43 I'm loving how a lot of poeple (on both sides of the argument) are trying to take this thread away from the real issue here.
Amarr ships do not need boosting.
Lasers do not need boosting.
I'll go as far as to say that the damage ratio's on crystals are fine.
What needs changing is this: The most tactically sensible option for all round resists on armour needs to be the 3 specific hardener route (Therm/Kin and Explo hardeners) not the 2 x EANM2 and DC route.
The 3 specific hardener route is harder to fit, takes more cap and only provides 6-8% more resist to the 3 lowest resists your trying to fix. The 2 x EANM2 and DC tank uses less cap, is easier to fit, gives you almost a free EM active 50% hardener and also acts as a free plate with the hull resists.
It's not really an Amarr problem, I apologise for referring to it as that previously, its an EM damage problem. It's just that lasers get the brunt of this issue.
The solution: Allow the armour compensation skills to work on active hardeners in active mode. Also following this, one would assume that the same for shield hardeners should be looked at?
Agreed. Although I wouldn't say it's exactly an EAN2 problem. It's a bit more complicated.
Let's assume EAN2 get balanced instead of nerfed into the stoneage. For example, made active with similar stats like an invul field. Would that solve the EM problem and people would again use 3 active single resistance harderners instead?
I would say a very definite "no" here. Just look at shield tank setups. Do you see a raven using 3 single resistance harderners? Standart shield harderner setup is 1 EM, 2 Invuls. People use multi resistance harderners rather than single resistance ones for PvP simply because they save a slot with them. 3 multi res usually do the work of 4 single res.
It's the same with armor tanks. The EM problem isn't there because EAN2 is too strong (which it IMO most definately is for an passive module), it's because the very *existance* of a viaable multi resistance harderner for armor.
Letting the skills apply for active harderners might be a solution. Problem here is that invul fields would get a rather massive boost with that and it will cause problems with other aspects of the game (big boost to passive shield tanks and NPCing in general), so I do not like it that much. What about simply letting the comp skills apply on passive single resistance harderners only? Although people who invested heavily in the armor comp skills would be massively ****ed by that I am sure.
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 17:14:00 -
[101]
It's not an EANM 2 problem specifically. It's a combination of EANM2's and a DC when compared to a 3 hardener setup. As I detailed previously the EANM2/DC tank does almost as well as the 3 Hardener tank for the 3 primary resists but then gives you pretty much 2 free slots on top of it with the extra EM resists and the more than doubling of your structure hitpoints.
I don't think the issue needs to be clouded with Invulnerability Field and their position in shield tanks. Due to their fitting requirements and significant cap usage they have differing issues.
On further thought however, I think a better solution for the specific hardeners would be to do this:
Keep everything currently the same except that the specific active hardeners also add a %age amount to total shields or total armour.
This is a change that favours no damage type over another. Only slight issue could be capital ships and passive shield tanks, but passive shield tanks require an enormous commitment of slots on most ships to work well.
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.08.16 17:36:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 15/08/2006 22:53:08 I'm not sure why this thread has not received any response from CCP, but it is quite obvious that Amarr ships leave something to be desired generally right now.
Stated in This Thread (which has 62 pages by the way):
*********************************************************** 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
***********************************************************
Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training amarr skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?
Well, you've said everything I've argued in the other thread, which I think we should keep alive along with this one.
I've never been a proponent of explosive damage, I have however figued a rebalance of thermal/em would help also, leaving the t2 crystals as is. Everything else you just mentioned is exactly how it is. I've flown amarr for 3 years, no joke. There are a few things that led to amarr being as it is : 1) Damage Mod stacking was taken away, 2) CCP made our crystals do less thermal at long range 3) EAN2 & IF became hugely popular to use with the introduction of the skills that boosted them up & their increases in resistance. 4) The lack of any boost besides Tachyon small increase in damage for amarr.
If I were a Dev, I'd read all that & have to agree, but its so much work i'd either have to ignore the problem and hope it would go away or start figuring out a solution.
One thing the Devs need to know, I'm NOT going to stop posting or let this slide. Nor should anyone else. Its our game to play.
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Soratah
Amarr Ubiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:22:00 -
[103]
I think there are a few problems with Amarr ships that already been addressed. I'd just like to re-iterate.
1) overcompensation: The Recon ships and the Command ships for the Amarr are very powerful and arguably the strongest of their field of all the races. This was done by CCP primarily to bolster the Amarrian side. However, since 90% of the Amarr population probably cant afford/buy these ships the deliberate boosting is moot.
2) Balance issues: Amarr ships (specifically the Geddon) is a very good damage dealer. However, the skill requirements are significantly higher to achieve similar capabilities/damage levels in other ships.
3) Ship balances: Because of the way lasers are and the usual standard fitting on Amarr ships costs heavy in the way of CPU/GRID. The advanced skills dont really address this issue for Amarrians and thus their ships are a series of compromises in regards to modules. Unlike their counterparts they sometimes cant even fit the weaponry/modules they were designed for. (Amarr Destroyer anyone?..)
4) Clearcut roles: With the exception of the Armageddon the other Amarrian ships dont really fit into anything classifying a good role. My best example of this would be the Apocalypse. Despite it's bonuses it really just cant tank well at all. The new tier 3 ships coming in Kali also add a new BS and it seems like the other factions Battleships have a specific role which their bonuses fit very well for. The Abbaddon just sounds plain ****e to be honest. It cant really do as well as a Geddon because of the huge cap cost it's guns will have. It probably wont have a decent enough cap to run a tank like the Apoc tries and does very badly at.
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Hakera
Minmatar Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:58:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Soratah
1) overcompensation:
i dont see it as overcompensation really, its just fortunate that the recons have a useful anti-ship role that is very effective across a lot more scenarios than a web bonus for eg. Also overcompensation would suggest you are undercompensated elsewhere, I would have to disagree there.
Quote:
2) Balance issues: Amarr ships (specifically the Geddon) is a very good damage dealer. However, the skill requirements are significantly higher to achieve similar capabilities/damage levels in other ships.
I dont really see how thats an issue as its the same for all ships. The only different being your higher need for cap conservation skills. I think you also forget the typhoon which most agree is the highest skillpoint bs class ship out there for effective use as your required to have 3 different weapon systems trained up to the same standard you would have one - lasers.
Quote:
3) Ship balances: ........ The advanced skills dont really address this issue for Amarrians and thus their ships are a series of compromises in regards to modules. Unlike their counterparts they sometimes cant even fit the weaponry/modules they were designed for. (Amarr Destroyer anyone?..)
no ship besides the scorp or raven are easy to fit. Every other ship has to make a comprimise whether it be range, damage or tank for them to work. We're all in the same boat essentially bar caldari.
Quote:
4) Clearcut roles: With the exception of the Armageddon the other Amarrian ships dont really fit into anything classifying a good role. My best example of this would be the Apocalypse. Despite it's bonuses it really just cant tank well at all. The new tier 3 ships coming in Kali also add a new BS and it seems like the other factions Battleships have a specific role which their bonuses fit very well for.
I cant really see your point here, your role is really a fucntion of how close you want to get which dicates your setup. I think anything that can equip duel reps alone stands a far better chance in combat than the lower base cap, lower grid counterparts which will struggle to fit duel reps and typically have to drop to a large & a medium just to get them to fit.
To sum up - I disagree
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Powder Monkey
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
Idiot.
What a clever well thought out reply, go you.
CEO - Art of War
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Cupdeez
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:55:00 -
[106]
Everyship in eve has a different role. So I'll break it down for everyone..
Apoc (Good Fleet ship) Best armor tank in the game No ammo Needed only uses power for guns. Does one of the Best DPS Still can pack 4 heavy drones.
Mega (Good Fleet Ship) 2nd best armor tank in the game takes lots of ammo and lots of power for guns Good damage not the best uses 5 heavy drones
Raven (Crapy Fleet Ship) Best sheilds tank in the game good damage no cap needed can't hold may drones at all
Tempest (Good Fleet Ship) Can't tank anything really Most damage per volley 4 heavy drones
Geddon (Close Range) Good Damage or Good Tank Can use 5 heavy drones
Domi (Close Range) Solid tank no damage All drones for the win.
Scorp (Very Good Fleet Ship so good itz primary) Best EW or Good Tank No damage / No drones
Phoon (Close range) Good Armor Tank Guns and missiles are mixed bad damage
Ammar - Is known for Tanking and pure damage that is the role this ship takes. It uses no ammo but requires lots of power to run its Guns. It only can do 2 damage types but does the most DPS. Also can be packed with drones to do the other damage types. (least expensive to run)
Gallente - Is known for solid damage and solid armor tank. Itz cargo is filled with ammo and uses a ton of cap. The guns only do kenetic and thermic but can be made up with picking 5 drones to make the other damage up. (just good not the best at anything)
Caldari - Best sheild tank sick damage and is more geared for EW. Can pick any damage type but has the smallest drone bays. (least skills to fly)
Minnie - more of a mix of everything from guns to missiles to sheild or armor tanking. Does tons of damage but can't tank as well as the others. (Most fun to fly)
Yah you can cry all you want but with maxed out skilled in a apoc vs any other max out player is going to come down to who is a better PVP player and who has the better setup for the fight.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:20:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Cupdeez Everyship in eve has a different role. So I'll break it down for everyone..
Apoc (Good Fleet ship) Best armor tank in the game No ammo Needed only uses power for guns. Does one of the Best DPS Still can pack 4 heavy drones.
Geddon (Close Range) Good Damage or Good Tank Can use 5 heavy drones
Ammar - Is known for Tanking and pure damage that is the role this ship takes. It uses no ammo but requires lots of power to run its Guns. It only can do 2 damage types but does the most DPS. Also can be packed with drones to do the other damage types. (least expensive to run)
Ok... now you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Apocalypse: (Decent Fleet Ship) Same armor tank as other Dual-Rep BS, slightly more armor HP. Crystals needed. T2 Crystals like carrying a second uninsured BS in your cargohold. Does one of the worst DPS of any Battleship. Can only use three Heavy Drones, more likely 5 Med 5 Light.
Armageddon:(Good Fleet Ship) Great Theoretical DPS. EANM+DC tank changes this. Plated fleet setups change this. Very high Cap use. Bad tank. Can use 5 Heavy Drones (You got one right!)
Amarr:Is known for tanking OR damage. Has tanks that are, honestly, either very little ahead of other race's tanks, the same as their tanks, or worse. Has the second best theoretical DPS. EANM+DC tank, plated tanks, and EM+2xInvuln II tanks give the ships far less than On-Paper DPS. Second smallest drone bays in game. Lowest number of midslots in game. Least versatility in game. Fleet-setups are the most expensive fleet-setups in the game, because of the T2 crystal cost.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:49:00 -
[108]
Quote: no ship besides the scorp or raven are easy to fit. Every other ship has to make a comprimise whether it be range, damage or tank for them to work. We're all in the same boat essentially bar caldari.
The Scorp is easy to fit because nobody cares about your highslots once you pack your meds with ECM. The Raven isn't easy to fit, show me one torp raven with all highslots used and a decent tank (without fitting mods ofcourse, since it's so easy).
Quote: I cant really see your point here, your role is really a fucntion of how close you want to get which dicates your setup. I think anything that can equip duel reps alone stands a far better chance in combat than the lower base cap, lower grid counterparts which will struggle to fit duel reps and typically have to drop to a large & a medium just to get them to fit.
Sure the apoc can fit dual reps with some smaller guns, but even with it's capacitor it won't be able to run them due to laser cap usage. And try realizing that this large capacitor is nothing more than a compensation for the laser cap usage, it gives the apoc the ability to run a tank - it doesn't make the apoc a tanking monster (without projectiles ofc.).
Quote: To sum up - I disagree
So do I - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Angus McLean
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:00:00 -
[109]
A lot of people are talking theoretics here. If you find a battleship and its setup for pvp and you kill it. You WILL find 2 EANM II's and a DC. Whether 'everyone' has the skills or not. If you think im lying do this, go to ships and mods and write a question pretending to be a noob saying
"Well Ive just gotten in my first BS but I dont have the skills for EANM's and a DC, what do I tank with?"
You will be laughed at and told "Then stick to a cruiser until you get some skills" by everyone on the forums.
Ok that solved. Next issue. Yes Amarr does great damage...if your not using EANM's and DC's that is. Now we've already established in 100 posts why that is the standard so it is and get over it. Maybe you dont have the skills to use it or the money to buy it but that doesnt mean others dont. Anyways yeah so lets do some simple math equations.
For all real numbers X = A divided by Y. Now lets add the variables, X = Amarrs realistic damage output. A= Amarrs 'amazing!' damage output and Y= 2xEANM's and DC.
Now using that forumla lets assume Amarr (X) do 1000 dps. So 300dps = 1000 divided by 2 EANM's and a DC.
Now everyone knows math is always correct so after this problem that im sure no one followed we read this.
Amarrs damage output (1000dps) is utterly crushed by the (already established) 'standard' tank which brings it to X (300dps) which is a 'real' number and a reality. So now the real answer is this:
Amarrs damage output is crap because the standard (EANM+DC) is too good for it. So Amarrs damage is now crap. It WAS good but seeings anyone with money and good skills will be setup for standard tank so amarrs damage output is crap. Whether it is on paper or not.
And for all intents and purposes Amarrs damage output is forever crap until EANM's + DC are nerfed or Amarrs damage is boosted.
Ok and final issue I read here...the Omen. It sucks and dont even try to defend it. It can hardly fit 4 Heavy Pulses and its mid slots before you have to have fitting mods. Fix it.
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Kaemka
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:13:00 -
[110]
*********************************************************** 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
***********************************************************
1. the main minmatar bonus is crap, 5% to make guns usable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos and damage control are not going to be nerfed, meaning alpha strike counts even less. 3. minmatar have basically no racical ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med projectile guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a rupture at all with 4 720mm guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of DPS.
Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training minmatar skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?
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Trojanman190
Caldari Everlasting Impact
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:20:00 -
[111]
What he said.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:26:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Aramendel Mainly due to minnie ships being 50:50 armor:shieldtanks, gallente and amarr 100% armor and caldari 100% shieldtanks. Fixing the med/lowslot imbalance will reduce the problem significantly, but not totally solve it.
It wouldn't be hard to get gallente ships to shield tank some more; dominix slots, grid and cpu (accounting for the usual mid slot shortage related to attempts at balancing EW) show clearly that it should have been mostly a shield tanking ship. Of course it's only seldom shield tanked, given the mid/low slots/mods balance (or lack thereof) and ecm constraints. Besides, it's not completely impossible to change a few ships once ecm and mid/low slot balance improved.
Originally by: Angus McLean And for all intents and purposes Amarrs damage output is forever crap until EANM's + DC are nerfed or Amarrs damage is boosted.
Amarr damage doesn't need boosting, PERIOD. It's a resistance and a slot/module balancing issue, it's not a laser or amarr issue. What you see is not the problem, it's a symptom, and therefore there is no worth in hiding it behind a broken bandaid that's going to create new problems.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:35:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Dixon on 16/08/2006 21:35:51
Originally by: Naughty Boy Amarr damage doesn't need boosting, PERIOD. It's a resistance and a slot/module balancing issue, it's not a laser or amarr issue. What you see is not the problem, it's a symptom, and therefore there is no worth in hiding it behind a broken bandaid that's going to create new problems.
That slave speaks teh truth! Stop asking for damage boosts and bonus changes and focus on the real issue - resist and overpowered medslots. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Zaethiel
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:47:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Nebuli OK I said this before but it seems to have been missed, and is what the entire Amarr whine is about, normaly I dont cruise control for cool but I'll make an exception....
NOT EVERY SHIP IN EVE IS FLYING AROUND WITH EANM II AND DC AND HIGH MECHANIC SKILLS.
Lets say for one minute we boost laser damage, now against a EANM II and DC tank they are equal to say a hybrid, now what happens to any ship that isnt fitting this kind of tank, TOAST.
They don't need to boost the all aroudn damage. That would be bad. Don't think anyone wants that. What Lasers need is a boost to Armor Base damage. Giving lasers the ability to use explosive damage would help.
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Yodohime Kibagami
Amarr Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:58:00 -
[115]
I wish the amarr faction would be considered more on the younger toon view besides the problems of pvp with near-perfect or perfect skills and supporting skills.
The ships are outrageously hard to fit with the racial guns, they are overcompensating for their pros, excessive PG and capacitor requirements to do only moderate or even bad damage on things other than cans, add in tiny field of fire for crystals and expensive t2 crystals that wear out.
Ships themselves are scarce on midslots, easiest to jam or tracking discrupt. 'wasting' a boni to be able to be more cap efficient, which is also mostly moot with most of their ships not having enough mids to even put a cap booster along with essential pvp mods, or having to give up one of the three.
The thought of ships being as efficient or overall more efficient while using other factions guns should be enough of a reason by itself to look into Amarr overall.
Need more reasons to fly amarr than being aesthetically more pleasing than legos or melted crayons or rusty duct-tape monsters, Dammit.
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Hakera
Minmatar Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:07:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami
Ships themselves are scarce on midslots, easiest to jam or tracking discrupt.
what?
jamming strength is always minmatar -> amarr -> gallente -> caldari and as for tracking, lasers are the best tracking turrets.
The lack of utiltiy slots has been there since conception, but no one whined back then as they shield tanked their apocs with 6*cpr's back then with a sustainble tank as well.
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:16:00 -
[117]
I really don't think there is any way you can say that the popularity of EANII x2 + DC does not severely hurt amarr ships in pvp. A minmatar-esque ammo variety would probably fix it though, adding a little bit of kineic or explosive (though obviously hard to justify in the RP sense)
The ability to change all of our crystals at once would be EXCELLENT though, nstead we have the buggy "right click, switch, right click switch, oops bug with reloading, right click, stack.."
Once you begin to use t2 ammo and there is no ability to stack the crystals it gets very very annoying.
sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris |
ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:19:00 -
[118]
Once you start toying with the active hardners, you need to think about what the officer ones could do. Imagine 4 officer actives on an abbaddon, say.
sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris |
Eelim Garak
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:33:00 -
[119]
Hi, i am 6 month old, specialized in amarr, and this thread is patethic!
I am a Pirate, as said i fly amarr ships, and i dont have a problem killing people, that includes 2 year old PvPer's (Pirates/Anti-Pirates) as well as the common mining noob. FFS Guys, just train up your fitting skills, learn how to fitt a ship, and do it, maybe amarr ships need a little more brain activity to fitt, and if you cant provide it no bonus or weaponsystem overhaul will help you there.
And stop whining you cant kill a Vagabond with an Omen/Maller, try a Zealot.
If you loose a ship, try to consider that it was not your ships fault, but your own.
Greetings Eelim
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:41:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Eelim Garak Hi, i am 6 month old, specialized in amarr, and this thread is patethic!
I am a Pirate, as said i fly amarr ships, and i dont have a problem killing people, that includes 2 year old PvPer's (Pirates/Anti-Pirates) as well as the common mining noob. FFS Guys, just train up your fitting skills, learn how to fitt a ship, and do it, maybe amarr ships need a little more brain activity to fitt, and if you cant provide it no bonus or weaponsystem overhaul will help you there.
And stop whining you cant kill a Vagabond with an Omen/Maller, try a Zealot.
If you loose a ship, try to consider that it was not your ships fault, but your own.
Greetings Eelim
Well, that was a very blind post. This is about balance, not being able to kill things. Normally when you shoot somebody else somebody has a really big advantage but when a skilled pvper in a apoc with a tank on comes up against a killed mega pilot with a EANII and DC tank then the apoc is screwed unless some sort of ECM variable is there, if you assume their equipment and skills are pracically the same.
I've been specialised in amarr over 2 years and yes the have done me quite well but i do find im firing peanuts now and again when shoot somebody with that sort of tank on. Fortunately when I have come across that I've been in a gang. I KNOW how to fit my ships, currently there is not much amarr users can do versus those resistances when the high EM damage on lasers is resisted. The problem didnt exist pre-DC and EAN boost.
sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris |
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Rockpounder
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:43:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Dixon
Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP)
Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage.
DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS
Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage.
Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP
Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp)
Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great.
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:20:00 -
[122]
\o/ yay, I was quoted - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:39:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Rockpounder
Originally by: Dixon stuff
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
If your going to use 800mm's for a Tempest use neutrons for a Mega.
Unrealistic setup comparisons prove nothing. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:52:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Rockpounder
Originally by: Dixon stuff
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
If your going to use 800mm's for a Tempest use neutrons for a Mega.
Unrealistic setup comparisons prove nothing.
Do you realize that 6x 800mm's II use almost exactly the same powergrid as Ion blaster cannons II... I think that's a fair comparison as the megathron and tempest have the same grid. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.17 02:03:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 17/08/2006 02:04:47
Originally by: Dixon
Do you realize that 6x 800mm's II use almost exactly the same powergrid as Ion blaster cannons II... I think that's a fair comparison as the megathron and tempest have the same grid.
Yes, but if you fit and fly a Tempest like a Mega you die. Gank 800mm pest setups went out of style when stacking penalties were introduced. Now theres little reason to fit more than 650's on a Pest. While the difference between Ions and Neutrons especially with damage mods is much larger.
Plus a Pest has 6 lows and a Mega has 7 lows, which fits the most damage mods? One has 7 guns and one has 6 guns so which has gets the greater effect from the damage mods?
Like I said unrealistic setup comparison. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Zaethiel
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Posted - 2006.08.17 02:20:00 -
[126]
Also if you compare different guns don't use 3 damage mods. (3DM). Not all damage mods add the same effects. 3 Heat Sinks really skews the comparison because each adds ROF, whereas the Mega adds optimal and i don't believe the Megas Tracking bonus is added into such tests properly. A Mega with BS 5 has a low chance of hitting barely scratches and hits. They almost always hit excellent and well aims with decent amounts of Perfects. Such DPS tests are usually based off of the DPS calculated from "hits" whereas the Megas best DPS comes from its tracking bonus which allows it to better hits more often.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.17 04:29:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Rockpounder
Originally by: Dixon stuff
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
If your going to use 800mm's for a Tempest use neutrons for a Mega.
Unrealistic setup comparisons prove nothing.
Do you realize that 6x 800mm's II use almost exactly the same powergrid as Ion blaster cannons II... I think that's a fair comparison as the megathron and tempest have the same grid.
The irony is that you hear a lot of people whining about how hard it is to fit 800mm IIs, yet give no sympathy to Gal pilots trying to fit Neuts. It's also funny hearing people cry that "real setups don't use fitting mods, duh" when almost every viable Amarr setup requires at least one, often 2.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.17 09:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Hakera jamming strength is always minmatar -> amarr -> gallente -> caldari and as for tracking, lasers are the best tracking turrets.
Wrong.
Minmatar and Amarr switch in "worst sensor strength" depending on ship. For example: Typhoon 18, Tempest 19, Aramageddon 17, Apoc 20.
And lasers have the best longrange tracking turrets, but the worst shortrange tracking turrets.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.17 09:14:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Rockpounder
Originally by: Dixon stuff
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
If your going to use 800mm's for a Tempest use neutrons for a Mega.
Unrealistic setup comparisons prove nothing.
Do you realize that 6x 800mm's II use almost exactly the same powergrid as Ion blaster cannons II... I think that's a fair comparison as the megathron and tempest have the same grid.
The irony is that you hear a lot of people whining about how hard it is to fit 800mm IIs, yet give no sympathy to Gal pilots trying to fit Neuts. It's also funny hearing people cry that "real setups don't use fitting mods, duh" when almost every viable Amarr setup requires at least one, often 2.
Nyxus
And maybe your point wouldn't be so idiotic if 800 IIs were ANY WHERE NEAR THE PERFORMANCE of Neut IIs. There is no reason fitting 800 IIs over Dual 650 IIs that justifies the fitting requirements. There is for neut IIs on a mega... its called damage.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Cleron
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Posted - 2006.08.17 10:51:00 -
[130]
If some of you are so dead set on getting the damage type changed why not just ask for a small turn around. Make Thermal the major and EM then minor. It's an improvement at least & not that big a deal.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:00:00 -
[131]
Quote: And maybe your point wouldn't be so idiotic if 800 IIs were ANY WHERE NEAR THE PERFORMANCE of Neut IIs. There is no reason fitting 800 IIs over Dual 650 IIs that justifies the fitting requirements. There is for neut IIs on a mega... its called damage.
The Neutron blaster gives 6.6% better DPS than Ions, with some less tracking and more cap usage. 800mm's give 5% more damage with little difference in range or tracking. Both are minor improvements but neutrons are extremely hard to fit compared to 800mm's. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Godar Marak
Amarr Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:33:00 -
[132]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist In other words their ships will win a fight because they can either outgun you or out-tank you
Ahaha, and they made YOU in charge of the ship testing etc in E-on?
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webkert
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:46:00 -
[133]
bs vs armor Armortank with 2 25% nanos + dc.
bs vs shield shieldtank with 2 invul and one em hardener.
Cap consumption
Apoc is using 2 more turrets then tempest and still it does about the same dps.
Fitting: With the guns used in the graph these ships have the following cpu/grid left (damagemod cpu not included).
neut mega: 4157 grid, 366 cpu MP geddon 2915 grid, 284 cpu MP apoc: 4135 grid, 307 cpu 800mm pest: 7231 grid, 503 cpu siege raven: 1729 grid, 479 cpu
So basicly the cap bonus on the apoc only makes up for the high cap usage on laser, it cant tank any better then other battleships, it does crap damage with its guns and has a small dronebay. And it's grid/cpu aint that great either.
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Venveda
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:18:00 -
[134]
I'm Khanid but I fly some Amarr ships, some are good and some are not so good..but it's not the ships fault!!!!
I love my lil punisher..it's a real tough nut and my Vengeance makes the Angel cartel weak with fear!!
However, there is a lil problem and it's easy to fix.. lasers.. 1) tweak the fittings of some of them (not all,some are fine)..this will enable many of the T1 frigs/cruisers to be useful again...I mean whats the point of designing weapons that don't fit your ships, I know alll races struggle to fit all best weapons but some lasers are just silly hard to fit with out totally gimping all the rest of your set up. 2) Increase cap and/or cap recharge rate of ships..going back to point 1..why design your whole military machine around weapons not many of your ships can use properly..
This would allow a bonus like (and these are only suggestions so please flame lightly) +5 rof, +5 optimum +5 armour repper bonus..well you get the idea.
Also I think slot layouts are fine and lasers doing EM/THERM is cool..I dont think doing explosive dmg is needed as would make us too uber tough (and we would turn into Caldari)..now my third point and most powerful arguement is this.. 3) Our best T1 cruiser is a f**king drone carrier!!..enough said.
So please tweak lasers just a bit, I can even live with the cap bonus..just give me back my T1 frigs/cruisers with frikin laser beams
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.17 15:15:00 -
[135]
Yes, Arbitrator / Curse / Pilgrim are great ships, we are all in agreement here. But if you notice, none of these ships uses energy weapons!!
The ONLY amarr ships that really stand out DONT use energy weapons. So that is the root of the problem as I have been saying all along. All races can vary their damage types on their racially prefeired weapons EXCEPT amarr...why cant we all just agree on this fact and move on?
If we went back to the days of using a few specific platings and not the eanm + dc setups, not only would energy weapons stand a chance again, but fitting ship defenses would be like rock-paper-scissors again, which as any strategy buff will tell you is the basis of great, engaging gameplay!
The amount of amarr ships in my hanger is slowly dwindling and the amount of caldari ships in my hanger is climbing as I find ships for roles that are drasticly better for what I was doing with my amarr ships.
I used to use a Maladiction for PVP tackling, it has been replaced by a crow.
I still use my Retribution for agent missions, and Arbitrator (cant fly curse just yet) but that is it.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.17 16:59:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade All races can vary their damage types on their racially prefeired weapons EXCEPT amarr...why cant we all just agree on this fact and move on?
Because it isn't really correct. A blaster/rail specced gallente cannot do really anything else than therm/kin. They got bigger than average drone bays, too, but the majority of their damage comes from their guns.
There are 1 or 2 rail specced Caldari Pilots right now, but with the tier3 BS this will probably change.
And for t2 ammo minnies can only deal exp/kin, too. They can of cource still use t1 ammo, but even vs shields t2 ammo should deal more dps than any t1 ammo replacement for that range.
It really does not matter if other races have hard damagetypes or not, what matters is that they do not encounter the resistances amarr do.
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Savion Mercarte
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Posted - 2006.08.17 17:07:00 -
[137]
I am almost purely Amarr, although I can fly smaller Gallente and Minmatar. I'm basically in the same boat as Auryn. The majority of my SP is in Amarr.
In my opinion...
1) Make lasers do 1/2 EM 1/2 thermal across the board instead of what it currently does. Radio is 100% EM gg. Honestly I don't like the idea of explosive crystals all that much, just reduce the EM %.
2) Reduce overall cap usage of lasers. It's kind of ridiculous that even with the -50% capacitor used from the relevant spaceship command skill that lasers still use more cap than hybrids, and no, Amarr ships do not have significantly more cap than Gallente.
3) Some specific ships need some tweaking, like the Omen, Sacriledge, Vengeance, Malediction, and a few of the frigates. There's really no reason to fly an Omen other than for a disposible ship, when you can use something like a Thorax instead. Maller has its role, but it's a PoS for damage. I'm sure some other race ships need some tweaking. Thorax is great but Deimos really isn't, etc.
4) Reduce fitting costs on small turrets. I'm not sure about medium.
Before you really bash all the Amarr sucks threads, try out their ships in PvP, or even in PvE. Amarr HACs/AFs/etc get less resistance to their pirate factions than any other race.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 17:25:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/08/2006 17:36:14
Originally by: Aramendel Even if ECM is made useless on those ships there is still stuff which will need medslots - ab/mwd, scrambler, webber, sensor boosters, cap injectors... You would need to change a lot more than ECM to make medslot = lowslot.
Exactly. The whole "mid are scarce => powerful mods should be mid slot modules" and "powerful mods are mid slot modules => mid should be scare" self-reinforcing logic is very bad for the racial balance. The current polarisation of mids and low slots is very bad, and not only because of EW.
Of course people won't still bother shield tanking as long as they don't get the slots to do it... something that won't happen as long as the above mentioned logic is prevalent in ships and module design (see what 'Tux said about the minmatar tier 3 battleship design and its expected limited amount of mid slots + shield boosting bonus).
Originally by: Aramendel Well, at least we (apparently) agree that the shield:armortanker imbalance is there simply from the ship design. The thing is that I doubt that CCP will redesign ships for that (just imagine the complaints alone if dominix/ishtar users would have to train for a shieldtank and could scrap their millions of SPs in armortanks). It is just not something which I realistically expect to happen.
It's not as bad as telling people who actually trained shield tanking skills that they can shove their SP where it apparently belongs when flying most of the ships in EVE. I find it very fair that people who don't train shield skills can't use shield modules. Also, I am not suggesting to make shield tanking mandatory when flying the dominix or anything like that. It should be a worthwhile option more often, thanks to more balanced mid and low slot/module designs.
Originally by: Aramendel Because of this I am basically lobbying for reducing armor EM resists and increasing shield EM resists by the same amount. Since I doubt they will drastically change ships, I also doubt that EAN2 will get nerfed or that Amarr will get explosive or kinetic lenses and amarr ships indeed do not need a *base* dps bost thats pretty much the only thing left what can be done there.
That'd be an option... It does partially solve the EANM t2/EM damage issue, but does not help much the mid/low slot balance issue which has a lot of side effects, besides armor/shield tanking, including: WCS VS scrambler, ECCM and ECM competing for the same slot and purpose (anti-jamming)...
Originally by: Nyxus The irony is that you hear a lot of people whining about how hard it is to fit 800mm IIs, yet give no sympathy to Gal pilots trying to fit Neuts.
That's a bit new to me, I think that people rather whine because it's too often pointless to fit the highest tier guns. In other words, given the marginal improvement they provide over smaller versions, they are way too difficult to fit.
Just to compare with blasters: AC vs Blasters
800mm t2 "might be easy to fit", they often aren't worth the marginal cost in fitting.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 17:35:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/08/2006 17:35:00
Originally by: Dixon The Neutron blaster gives 6.6% better DPS than Ions, with some less tracking and more cap usage. 800mm's give 5% more damage with little difference in range or tracking. Both are minor improvements but neutrons are extremely hard to fit compared to 800mm's.
There are two majors points that you are overlooking: * First, the different tiers of blasters have significantly different ranges (further enhanced by t2 ammo given the increasing optimal/falloff ratios), which is a decisive reason to chose a gun over another despite a low damage advantage and a relatively high fitting cost. * Second: It's better to active tank a low damage ship and passive tank a high damage ship. In general, active tanking requires more fittings, hence the low fitting available for tanking on a high damage ship isn't as crippling as some blastherthron pilots would like you to believe. An AC tempest with max skills and 1 damage mod will take 3 minutes to kill a tanked dominix, and won't probably tank it unless it uses a dual rep setup. Plates are worthless for such a long fight. A neutron-mega will take half a minute to kill it, and in such a short amount of time will do better with a LAR + plate instead of a dual large rep, could it even fit it (it can't obviously).
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.17 18:34:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 17/08/2006 18:36:21
Originally by: Nyxus
The irony is that you hear a lot of people whining about how hard it is to fit 800mm IIs, yet give no sympathy to Gal pilots trying to fit Neuts. It's also funny hearing people cry that "real setups don't use fitting mods, duh" when almost every viable Amarr setup requires at least one, often 2.
Nyxus
Not quite true.
People whine that there is very little reason to fit 800mms over 650mm's.
ACs and Blaster
You can see the increase in range and damage the blasters get each tier increase while the AC's difference stays the same. The increase is very poor for the fitting costs, hence with stacking penalties shield tanked tempests with 800mm's + Gyros went out of style. Its still possible but then its comparison should be a neutron mega as the roles and situations they are used are the same.
EDIT: lol I went out and just came back and realised I didn't his post... now I see NB beat me to it... nevermind. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 19:15:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/08/2006 17:54:18
Originally by: Dixon The Neutron blaster gives 6.6% better DPS than Ions, with some less tracking and more cap usage. 800mm's give 5% more damage with little difference in range or tracking. Both are minor improvements but neutrons are extremely hard to fit compared to 800mm's.
There are two major points that you are overlooking:
* First, the different tiers of blasters have significantly different ranges (further enhanced by t2 ammo given the increasing optimal/falloff ratios), which is a decisive reason to chose a gun over another despite a low damage advantage and a relatively high fitting cost. * Second: - In very small gangs, it's better to active tank a low damage ship and passive tank a high damage ship. In general, active tanking requires more fittings, hence the low fitting available for tanking on a high damage ship isn't as crippling as some blastherthron pilots would like you to believe. An AC tempest with max skills and 1 damage mod will take 3 minutes to kill a tanked dominix, and won't probably tank it long enough unless it uses a dual rep setup. Plates are worthless for such a long fight. A neutron-mega will take half a minute to kill it, and in such a short amount of time will do better with a LAR + plate instead of a dual large rep, could it even fit it (it can't obviously). - In larger gangs, and against "gank setups", plates and damage + range are the way to go anyway. ...so, ultimately, the fitting constraints only matter when there is a focus on active tank in small gangs.
NB.
I don't doubt the fact that I'm overlooking somethings regarding the minmatar part, as I have little experience flying those ships. But I was comparing these ships in gank-mode, some might say that would require Neutrons for fair comparison - fine. You say the range difference make them viable - but that difference only applies for the seconds the blasterthron needs to mwd to it's target. With null it's a pretty powerful combo, I know, but without it it's practically useless. I finally chose to use Ions because Neutrons make the megathron barely able to tank - 800's on a tempest don't have that effect (although they might give less options for the 2 extra highs).
Tempest grid usage with 800's - 11880 Megathron grid usage with Neutrons - 14886.9 Armageddon grid* usage with Megapulse - 17325
*note that the armageddon has slightly higher base grid than the Tempest and 'Thron
I simply must plead my ignorance on this subject. Why is it unfair to use 800s on the tempest when it actually has the most grid left to play with after fitting it's primary weapons? If the Tempest 'must' tank like crazy why shouldn't the others? And don't give me raw dps calculations with 1 damage mods against no resists, make it fair. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.17 19:17:00 -
[142]
Originally by: NB
Originally by: nyxus
The irony is that you hear a lot of people whining about how hard it is to fit 800mm IIs, yet give no sympathy to Gal pilots trying to fit Neuts.
That's a bit new to me, I think that people rather whine because it's too often pointless to fit the highest tier guns. In other words, given the marginal improvement they provide over smaller versions, they are way too difficult to fit.
Just to compare with blasters: AC vs Blasters 800mm t2 "might be easy to fit", they often aren't worth the marginal cost in fitting.
Thats true, but I also think that is a touch misleading. With the incredibly low fitting cost of mid tier ACs and only losing 5% damage and NO appreciable range (something that the Blaster/Laser comparables significantly lose) AC users still have 2 highslots left for missiles.
Why isn't everyone using Temps with Missiles if DPS is such a problem?
I hear a lot of Matari complaining that thier DPS is sub par. At the same time, I hear them saying that no one else can use all damage types (other than Caldari) because it would be too overpowering with the other races significantly higher DPS. I just don't see it. With missiles in the last 2 slots a Tempest *STILL* has less fitting costs than an Ion Mega while having much better range to boot.
Sorry for going a bit off topic, AC fittings have always bugged me, especially since 650's and 800's basically have the same range/falloff. I don't think AC's should be nerfed, I just wish pulse (especially small and medium) were a bit more comparable fitting wise and percentage difference in range between top end and 2nd tier. I also wish that the Controlled Burst skill would be upped to either 7.5% or 10% per level.
Of course, this really doesn't matter much. After the introduction of Tier 3 we will all be flying blaster-Rokhs anyway. Either that or siege ravens for close range.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.17 19:37:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2006 19:44:52
Originally by: Naughty Boy Exactly. The whole "mid are scarce => powerful mods should be mid slot modules" and "powerful mods are mid slot modules => mid should be scare" self-reinforcing logic is very bad for the racial balance. The current polarisation of mids and low slots is very bad, and not only because of EW.
Jepp. One idea/brainfart I got a while ago was maybe removing the medslot sensor boosters, tracking comps and ECCM and giving the current lowslot version the medslot stats. Medslot would then be EW (warp scramblers, ECM, sensor damperners, tracking disruptors), Shield Tanking, Propulsion, Cap Injectors and Webbers; Lowslot would then be Anti-EW (WCS, ECCM, sensor boosters and tracking comps), Armor Tank, damage and fitting mods.
Sounds pretty equal to me. In numbers, at least - ECM is of cource right now more powerful/useful then ECCM.
Quote: That'd be an option... It does partially solve the EANM t2/EM damage issue, but does not help much the mid/low slot balance issue which has a lot of side effects, besides armor/shield tanking, including: WCS VS scrambler, ECCM and ECM competing for the same slot and purpose (anti-jamming)...
It wouldn't solve the medslot issue. But I really see the armor/shieldtanking imbalance and the medslot issue as 2 seperate problems. The latter is making the first worse, but the first would still be a problem if the latter is solved. I really see no solution to solve these 2 problems at once, each has to have it's own solution. And "simply" changing base resistances a bit seems to me an easier way to solve the shield/armortanker base distribution with a smaller potential to open a balance can'o'worms than redesigning 12.5% of all ships in EvE from armor to shieldtanks.
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Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.17 20:16:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Dixon
Tempest grid usage with 800's - 11880 Megathron grid usage with Neutrons - 14886.9 Armageddon grid* usage with Megapulse - 17325
*note that the armageddon has slightly higher base grid than the Tempest and 'Thron
yep armageddon have the most grid, but pulse use a lot more grid than the others guns. Tempest and Megathron can tank and gank with 650 and ion since amarr only have dual pulse and mega there isnt the third weapon. If you look the graph you could see how dual pulse do less damage than 650 ac so Armageddon need use megapulse but you cant tank, only gank but that isnt possible anymore since we got the stacking nerf.
About tanking im not saying you need cap boost and dual LAR, im telling you cant use a cap booster + plate and a single LAR in a geddon with megapulse
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 20:20:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Nyxus Thats true, but I also think that is a touch misleading. With the incredibly low fitting cost of mid tier ACs and only losing 5% damage and NO appreciable range (something that the Blaster/Laser comparables significantly lose) AC users still have 2 highslots left for missiles.
You don't gain much by upgrading guns, you don't lose much downgrading them either... That's why the last thing you fit on an AC ship are the turrets themselves, since you don't build the performance of the ship around their type. On the other hand, for a mega, the fighting style and the turret choice are very closely linked.
Originally by: Nyxus Why isn't everyone using Temps with Missiles if DPS is such a problem?
... disregarding nos issues... As you said a few times yourself, damage > tank and most setups will use a few damage mods, making the 45 dps of a fully skilled siege launcher only marginally useful. You don't see torp ravens fitting a large autocannon or two, even though they could, for the same reason. Incidentally, this bring us a bit to the "split hardpoints suck" issue because split hardpoints most often mean that you don't get as much from the very powerful weapons upgrades (damage mods are very powerful mods given the tanking mechanisms). If you find a typhoon, chances are he'll not waste his lows on many damage mods, even in a gang. Finally, unless you go with shield tanking (where you are basically a poor man's raven in terms of performance), it's hard to fit many damage mods on a tempest while keeping a competitive tank. On the other hand you have a mid (or two) for a "multispec of doom"(TM).
(continued)
In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 20:21:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Nyxus I hear a lot of Matari complaining that thier DPS is sub par.
I think it's pretty much ok in general now (AFs badly needed a second damage bonus), the autocannon issue shown above being a slight problem. Minmatar can't compete in pure damage or tanking, so they need a few "tricks". The speed advantage of some ships, the sig radius of another, the range advantage in some fights and the tracking advantage in others. It's a very fine line, unlike damage/tank, and minor changes can have a lot of consequences. As you have probably read a few times already, most AC tempest pilots aren't happy about null-blasters behaving like autocannons and the hyperion being a fast ship (like the tempest?) on top of that.
Originally by: Nyxus At the same time, I hear them saying that no one else can use all damage types (other than Caldari) because it would be too overpowering with the other races significantly higher DPS. I just don't see it. With missiles in the last 2 slots a Tempest *STILL* has less fitting costs than an Ion Mega while having much better range to boot.
You aren't using damage mods, drones, and t2 ammo in your graph. Fitting damage mods, as most ship do, changes the picture a lot. T2 ammo, however broken I think it is, also does play a role. Despite hail giving an enormous damage boost it is still harder to use (given the constraints of minmatar ships) than other high damage close range t2 ammos.
As for the core of your argument... As long as a change doesn't make anything working fine redundant, it's fine to me. If null ammo did 3 damage types and had 0 cap consumption, I'd not be happy o.-
Originally by: Nyxus Sorry for going a bit off topic, AC fittings have always bugged me, especially since 650's and 800's basically have the same range/falloff. I don't think AC's should be nerfed, I just wish pulse (especially small and medium) were a bit more comparable fitting wise and percentage difference in range between top end and 2nd tier.
Be careful to what you want, you might get it. There's a reason why people would like AC's to be more different.
Originally by: Nyxus I also wish that the Controlled Burst skill would be upped to either 7.5% or 10% per level.
Or the base cap consumption could be changed, making skill gaps less meaningful.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 20:36:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/08/2006 20:39:19
Originally by: Dixon You say the range difference make them viable - but that difference only applies for the seconds the blasterthron needs to mwd to it's target. With null it's a pretty powerful combo, I know, but without it it's practically useless.
That is hardly all. Given the tracking mechanisms, barrage and null are awesome anti-small ships ammo. Also, null helps a lot in AC vs blasters fights (try vagabond vs beagle for a laugh).
Originally by: Dixon I finally chose to use Ions because Neutrons make the megathron barely able to tank - 800's on a tempest don't have that effect (although they might give less options for the 2 extra highs).
AC Tempest fits are very often relying on those two high to be competitive. Anyway, which guns you use for the tempest doesn't change much to anything currently. Pre-AC "boost", I used to post dps graphs with dual 650mm AC instead of 800mm AC and only people who didn't know about the poorer performance of the guns on the graphs complained about it.
Originally by: Dixon If the Tempest 'must' tank like crazy why shouldn't the others?
That was the point of my post. I wish I had taken the time to do the tanking spreadsheet. The tank of the tempest doesn't have to be any more "hardcore" than any other tank. The kind of tank you need is a function of the fight time, which is a function of the average dps you are facing. It is the same for the opponent. In eve, a lot of factors are in favor of shorter and shorter fight times (damage > tank and increasingly so with numbers increasing). If you have a low damage, you know that the only way to win a fight is to make it last, implying that you'll need to tank a small dps for a long time. If the dps is higher, chances are still that your own damage wouldn't be enough, so plates wouldn't help you here. You'll want a dual rep tank. If you have a high damage, you know that the fight will not last long, as nothing will tank the dps for a long time. Hence, you want a short term tanking method, mostly plates. One tank isn't better than the other in general, it's just that going for plates with a low damage output or going for an unplated dual rep setup in a high damage output ship are rarely, if ever, good options.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.17 20:52:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/08/2006 20:53:58
Originally by: Aramendel Medslot would then be EW (warp scramblers, ECM, sensor damperners, tracking disruptors), Shield Tanking, Propulsion, Cap Injectors and Webbers; Lowslot would then be Anti-EW (WCS, ECCM, sensor boosters and tracking comps), Armor Tank, damage and fitting mods.
Even though I might have the satisfaction of disagreeing with myself later, I think that it's at least better than what we have now (assuming some slot layout changes for a few ships if needed)...
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 21:01:00 -
[149]
Originally by: NB That is hardly all. Given the tracking mechanisms, barrage and null are awesome anti-small ships ammo. Also, null helps a lot in AC vs blasters fights (try vagabond vs beagle for a laugh).
Hey, I'm not going to argue that null isn't overpowered. It is, like most (if not all) t2 ammo.
Originally by: NB That was the point of my post. I wish I had taken the time to do the tanking spreadsheet. The tank of the tempest doesn't have to be any more "hardcore" than any other tank. The kind of tank you need is a function of the fight time, which is a function of the average dps you are facing. It is the same for the opponent. In eve, a lot of factors are in favor of shorter and shorter fight times (damage > tank and increasingly so with numbers increasing). If you have a low damage, you know that the only way to win a fight is to make it last, implying that you'll need to tank a small dps for a long time. If the dps is higher, chances are still that your own damage wouldn't be enough, so plates wouldn't help you here. You'll want a dual rep tank. If you have a high damage, you know that the fight will not last long, as nothing will tank the dps for a long time. Hence, you want a short term tanking method, mostly plates. One tank isn't better than the other in general, it's just that going for plates with a low damage output or going for an unplated dual rep setup in a high damage output ship are rarely, if ever, good options.
We're getting way of track here... but while this has de-railed the thread I'd like to re-rail it by asking: Given what you just posted - do you think it's fair that the Armageddon, with it's pathetic tank and great raw DPS, is almost rendered useless by EANMIIs and DC tanks? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Rockpounder
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Posted - 2006.08.17 21:55:00 -
[150]
The current Amaar problems is a combination of serveral issues, and to summerise on a few of the good points made on this page of the thread, these are facts and real numbers and not some taken out of the air whining.
1. The main Amaar BS dmg dealer is a tier 1 ship (something common in all classes of Amaar ships) resulting in naturally lower HP, PG and CPU once guns are fit. The Typhoon also suffers this same fate. I can see the devs idea to balance the once good DPS with the lower HP, PG and CPU. Since various stacking penalty nerfes and the EANM II issues they no longer do this awsome DPS this puts Amaar dmg dealers in a bad situation.
2. Lasers looses the most DPS to an EANM II + DC tank.
3. The Armageddon does not do the best DPS against a shield tanked ship, wich one could argue that it should do. This is against a 2x Inv II + EM harderer tank. Admittedly not every ship is tanked this way or ideed at all, but comparing DPS vs cans seemes a bit meaningless, and this is a fairly common tank setup. Smaller Amaar ships does not suffer as much from the high EM resist shield and armor tanks beacuse of the limited number of slots availibe for resist mods on smaller ships.
4. Lasers has a much higher cap usage then other weapon systems, even after the 50% reduction bonus most of the ships get.
5. Some non Amaar issues such as ECM, Nos and the midslot issue in themselves may or may not hurt Amaar more the other races but certanly adds to the stack of problems.
I don't want to go as far as to say Amaar sucks too badly, they have some strong points as well, but a small increase in dmg seemes to be nesecary in order for Amaar to the good DPS race I think they were ment to be.
Increse dmg on crystals a bit, and we can try and see how that worked out. I do not think any other change is necesary until we tried this.
I also like to add something about the minmatar discussion that this thread suddenly seemes to be about Minmatar ships seemes to be designed with a "many small streams make big river" filosofy, or as more commonly put, split weapon systems. Without maxing out your dmg slots with missiles DPS will be lower. Good examples are Rupture with 2xNos and Tempest with 2xNos, these 2 ships have the nice dual dmg bonus and with the current state of Nos ends up being fitted our that way for PVP fairly often, but I belive minmatar DPS has been balanced with all dmg slots filled i.e Tempest with 6xAC + 2xSiege.
Also I would like to see more of the Typhoon in the dmg charts as its dmg output is very nice.
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Machiu Troyan
Minmatar Lithium Angels
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Posted - 2006.08.17 22:00:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Rockpounder
I also like to add something about the minmatar discussion that this thread suddenly seemes to be about Minmatar ships seemes to be designed with a "many small streams make big river" filosofy, or as more commonly put, split weapon systems. Without maxing out your dmg slots with missiles DPS will be lower. Good examples are Rupture with 2xNos and Tempest with 2xNos, these 2 ships have the nice dual dmg bonus and with the current state of Nos ends up being fitted our that way for PVP fairly often, but I belive minmatar DPS has been balanced with all dmg slots filled i.e Tempest with 6xAC + 2xSiege.
Also I would like to see more of the Typhoon in the dmg charts as its dmg output is very nice.
Huh?
Rupture: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed per level and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level.
Tempest: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed and Large Projectile Turret damage per level.
The thing is the un-bonus'd launchers don't have a large enough DPS effect to warrant being fitted over a Nos, which benefits the tank. ------------------
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.17 22:06:00 -
[152]
Nos is more effective, yes.
But I do not see any "tempest dps suck" take into account that it *has* 2 heavy nos as well (and does not need cap for guns, too) and has as result a better tank. That is rockpounders point, if you compare a tempest with 6 high slots used for dps with a mage with 7 high slots used for dps..well..it's then quite obvious that the tempest looses even if 1 AC = 1 Blaster.
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Admiral Okuma
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Posted - 2006.08.17 22:25:00 -
[153]
I agree with some of the points about why Amarr need help but also agree with some of the counter points saying that Amarr are fine.
I would have to say that my biggest problem with being Amarr is that Lasers use too much cap. If we fit a ship to have good sustainable cap then we have to use lasers that are to small for our ships. (example: small lasers on cruisers and medium lasers on battleships, ect...) If we fit our ship to do good DPS then we run dry on cap after only a few rounds.
Either way it is hard to kill anything because either you dont do enough dammage to break your opponents tank or, if your set up for DPS, your lasers break your own tank and you have to warp off before your opponent is destroyed.
The higher EM resists most ships have only compound the problem of fitting "too small" lasers on our ships. The EM resists would not be as big of an issue if we could use true medium lasers against cruisers but instead we have to use small lasers against cruisers which dont do enough DPS against them in the first place and then add in their EM resists and its quite sorry.
anyway, I just thought I would add in my observations.
Regards, Okuma
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.17 22:39:00 -
[154]
No, the true problem : We need true close turret !!!
See the difference between a pulse and a beam : range and rof !
Amarr need a true pulse with a lot of damage in close range and a very good tracking for shoot bs at close ! Our turret shoot good between 20km and 30km before you miss after you don't make damage lol! Stasis at 30km don't exist (forget faction too expensive for fitt on each ship amarr) for 10km yes.
All graph show this problem, damage at close = bad, damage at long = bad (only em lol). But you canno't PvP and PvE between 20-30km, it's not possible !
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:11:00 -
[155]
Naughty Boy, any chance you could repost that comparison of the effective DPS of a megapulse 'geddon vs. an autocannon tempest that you did for me? Some of the people in this thread need to see that their effective DPS isn't too dissimilar despite projectiles' explosive damage thanks to the fact that lasers have a much higher DPS to start. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:14:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 17/08/2006 23:16:16
Originally by: Rockpounder
Originally by: Dixon
Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP)
Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage.
DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS
Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage.
Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP
Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp)
Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great.
Taken from the 66 page Amaar thread.
It may be taken from there, but it isn't realistic - realistic setups on turret ships usually have only one or two damage mods. Anyone who fits only one rep is going to die horribly in most instances - you generally need either two reps or a rep + plate.
That being the case, your information here is not a good basis for argument.
EDIT: BTW, an AC tempest can generally only fit one damage mod with a 2 x LAR, 2 EANM II, 1 x damage control setup - it only has six lows. It could go for a shield tank, but then it couldn't fit a MWD, a scrambler, and a web.
In contrast, the 'geddon can generally fit two damage mods. Remember - raw numbers mean nothing if the setups aren't realistic. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:46:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Wrayeth it may be taken from there, but it isn't realistic - realistic setups on turret ships usually have only one or two damage mods. Anyone who fits only one rep is going to die horribly in most instances - you generally need either two reps or a rep + plate.
That being the case, your information here is not a good basis for argument.
Yes, please tell me how it matters in any way how many damage mods or armor reps theoretical setups have.
Originally by: wrayeth EDIT: BTW, an AC tempest can generally only fit one damage mod with a 2 x LAR, 2 EANM II, 1 x damage control setup - it only has six lows. It could go for a shield tank, but then it couldn't fit a MWD, a scrambler, and a web.
Yeah and an Armageddon can't fit megapulses and 2 LAR, nevermind run the setup ... oh damn. I was comparing GUNS - not your 'generally used' setups. This was a raw comparison of gun DPS on 3x active hardener tanks vs 2xEANM + DC tanks.
Originally by: Wrayeth In contrast, the 'geddon can generally fit two damage mods. Remember - raw numbers mean nothing if the setups aren't realistic.
Who are you to decide 'realistic' setups on these ships, the only way to make an unbiased comparison is to fit them exactly the same. That's what I did.
Originally by: Wrayeth EDIT #2: I see that you're using the best guns for both the 'geddon and the tempest, yet you're not for the mega. To be realistic, you'd need to switch the ions to neutrons. In addition, you'd need to switch the tempest's 800's to dual 650's; it is not feasable to fit 800's with a decent armor tank because of fitting constraints (you'd have to use a fitting mod, and dual 650's with 1 damage mod beat 800's with no damage mods).
The Tempest has more grid left after 6x800mm's than the megathron after 7 Ions, please tell me why this requires a fitting mod. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
magnus amadeus
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:53:00 -
[158]
I have been wondering about those figures a little myself. IS that using multifreq crystals? IF so, shouldn't you have two figures like the minmatar ones, one with multifreq (which has a bunch of therm with EM) and then one with radio (completely EM) ??
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:55:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Dixon
Yes, please tell me how it matters in any way how many damage mods or armor reps theoretical setups have.
A theoretical setup is not a valid point of argument if you can't FIT it in the actual game. Everything is relative - if you don't have a point of reference to work from, any numbers you come up with are meaningless.
Quote:
Yeah and an Armageddon can't fit megapulses and 2 LAR, nevermind run the setup ... oh damn. I was comparing GUNS - not your 'generally used' setups. This was a raw comparison of gun DPS on 3x active hardener tanks vs 2xEANM + DC tanks.
The guns by themselves have no meaning - it's what they can be fitted with that matters. Are you trying to tell me that the fact that a ship can fit only six guns while the others can fit seven is irrelevant? Oh, and you can't fit 3 active hardeners, 3 damage mods, and 1 large rep like you were talking about on a tempest - it's only got six lowslots.
Quote:
Originally by: Wrayeth In contrast, the 'geddon can generally fit two damage mods. Remember - raw numbers mean nothing if the setups aren't realistic.
Who are you to decide 'realistic' setups on these ships, the only way to make an unbiased comparison is to fit them exactly the same. That's what I did.
Who am I to make that decision? Someone who can fly every battleship in the game - I know what you can and can't fit, for the most part.
Quote:
The Tempest has more grid left after 6x800mm's than the megathron after 7 Ions, please tell me why this requires a fitting mod.
Because you need a MWD and a cap injector, as well as armor reps. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:06:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Wrayeth
A theoretical setup is not a valid point of argument if you can't FIT it in the actual game. Everything is relative - if you don't have a point of reference to work from, any numbers you come up with are meaningless.
When comparing gun DPS I don't feel the need to compare 'what wrayeth might fit'. And are going to tell me that a tempest can't fit 6x800mms and 3x gyros?
Originally by: Wrayeth The guns by themselves have no meaning - it's what they can be fitted with that matters. Are you trying to tell me that the fact that a ship can fit only six guns while the others can fit seven is irrelevant? Oh, and you can't fit 3 active hardeners, 3 damage mods, and 1 large rep like you were talking about on a tempest - it's only got six lowslots.
The guns have meaning when comparing guns, don't they? You don't seem to realize that this is a gun vs gun comparison, not a general fitting comparison. And if you want a gank tempest, use a sheild tank.
Originally by: Wrayeth Who am I to make that decision? Someone who can fly every battleship in the game - I know what you can and can't fit, for the most part.
Yes, that clearly makes you the ruler of EvE-fittings, sorry about that.
Originally by: Wrayeth Because you need a MWD and a cap injector, as well as armor reps.
No you want those things, try fitting them on a geddon or a neutron mega. None of those ships can fit what you want with their largest guns, again this is a comparison of gun DPS and not fittings. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:19:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 18/08/2006 00:19:48
Originally by: Dixon When comparing gun DPS I don't feel the need to compare 'what wrayeth might fit'. And are going to tell me that a tempest can't fit 6x800mms and 3x gyros?
Yes, I am - short range AC setups need a MWD, web, and scrambler, and the tempest does not have the slots to fit them if it's forced to shield tank (which it will be if you have 800mm's and 3 damage mods).
Quote:
The guns have meaning when comparing guns, don't they? You don't seem to realize that this is a gun vs gun comparison, not a general fitting comparison. And if you want a gank tempest, use a sheild tank.
No, they don't have meaning by themselves - because if you can't actually use the setup effectively then it automatically invalidates your argument. The setup has to WORK, otherwise the numbers are pointless.
As far as a gank tempest, yeah - you can shield tank it. However, how are you going to scramble your target? What about webbing it? In fact, how the hell are you going to get in range in the first place?
Oh, and if you're talking about a shield-tanked setup, would you like to run the 'geddon's numbers again vs. a 5-slot shield tank consisting of 1 XL C5L booster, 2 invulnerability field II's, 1 shield boost amp, and 1 heavy electrochem cap injector?
I thought not.
Quote:
Originally by: Wrayeth Who am I to make that decision? Someone who can fly every battleship in the game - I know what you can and can't fit, for the most part.
Yes, that clearly makes you the ruler of EvE-fittings, sorry about that.
This is normally where I'd make some sort of witty remark, but instead I'll just ask you which races' battleships you can fly.
Quote:
Originally by: Wrayeth Because you need a MWD and a cap injector, as well as armor reps.
No you want those things, try fitting them on a geddon or a neutron mega. None of those ships can fit what you want with their largest guns, again this is a comparison of gun DPS and not fittings.
You don't need a MWD on a 'geddon. You can hit pretty damned far out without having to approach just by switching crystals. As for the neutron mega:
7 modal mega neutron 1 medium nosferatu (it might have grid left over for a heavy - can't remember which I used)
1 quad LiF MWD 1 faint 20km scrambler 1 fleeting web 1 heavy electrochemical cap injector
1 LAR II (or accom - again, it's been a while since I've used this) 1 1600mm rolled tungsten plate 2 EANM II 2 magstab II 1 RCU II
Alternately, you can ditch one of the magstabs for a damage control. And yes, this setup fits. Better luck next time. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Lorth
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:47:00 -
[162]
Well I almost always dissagree with Wrayeth on ship issues, but for once he's right.
There is no way a comparision between ships, which have imaginary set ups that don't actually work in practice should be used as a comparision in ballancing issues.
Nor should we ever base ballance ideas on raw DPS. There is a lot more then that when it comes to how ships are used in practice. Take a mega vs geddon as an example, even though the mega with blasters has an advantage in raw DPS, in most relistic situation the geddon prob wins the damage race since it gets to start shooting right away while the poor mega has to move his whole ship.
Charts and graphs such as the one a couple posts above me, are nothing more then eye candy. They make it seem that the geddon does poorly, untill one looks at it objectivly and notices that its nothing more then a graph based around set ups that have no practical application in game.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:48:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Wrayeth Yes, I am - short range AC setups need a MWD, web, and scrambler, and the tempest does not have the slots to fit them if it's forced to shield tank (which it will be if you have 800mm's and 3 damage mods).
Point taken, you have more minmatar flying experience than me and that arguement does hold water.
Originally by: Wrayeth No, they don't have meaning by themselves - because if you can't actually use the setup effectively then it automatically invalidates your argument. The setup has to WORK, otherwise the numbers are pointless.
As far as a gank tempest, yeah - you can shield tank it. However, how are you going to scramble your target? What about webbing it? In fact, how the hell are you going to get in range in the first place?
Again true, don't doubt for a minute that a sheild tanked tempest would have tackling issues. But how do you think these numbers would look with only one damage mod for each ship? Well we both know they'd look the same percentage-wise only lower raw dps across the board. And then the setups would fit on all the ships (yeah, the megathron isn't going to be fitting 3 dmg mods either). And that's what I was getting at.
You claim these numbers are meaningless because the setups don't fit but the numbers would look the same with one damage mod. That way the setups would actually fit and invalidate your arguement.
Originally by: Wrayeth Oh, and if you're talking about a shield-tanked setup, would you like to run the 'geddon's numbers again vs. a 5-slot shield tank consisting of 1 XL C5L booster, 2 invulnerability field II's, 1 shield boost amp, and 1 heavy electrochem cap injector?
Sure, I could do that.
Geddon DPS 353 Tempest DPS 235 Megathron DPS 247
yay, the geddon wins against a setup you (the lord of eve fittings) declared useless.
Originally by: Wrayeth I thought not.
And you were wrong.
Originally by: Wrayeth This is normally where I'd make some sort of witty remark, but instead I'll just ask you which races' battleships you can fly.
Gallente, Caldari and Amarr, but the fact that you think that matters actually tells me more than your ability to fly them.
Originally by: Wrayeth You don't need a MWD on a 'geddon. You can hit pretty damned far out without having to approach just by switching crystals. As for the neutron mega:
7 modal mega neutron 1 medium nosferatu (it might have grid left over for a heavy - can't remember which I used)
1 quad LiF MWD 1 faint 20km scrambler 1 fleeting web 1 heavy electrochemical cap injector
1 LAR II (or accom - again, it's been a while since I've used this) 1 1600mm rolled tungsten plate 2 EANM II 2 magstab II 1 RCU II
Alternately, you can ditch one of the magstabs for a damage control. And yes, this setup fits. Better luck next time.
Well any idiot would realize that if you would drop the RCU and use Ions and a third magstab you would not only get better DPS but you'd also have much more spare grid for those extra slots. And I would think that the lord of fittings should know this. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:53:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Lorth Well I almost always dissagree with Wrayeth on ship issues, but for once he's right.
There is no way a comparision between ships, which have imaginary set ups that don't actually work in practice should be used as a comparision in ballancing issues.
Nor should we ever base ballance ideas on raw DPS. There is a lot more then that when it comes to how ships are used in practice. Take a mega vs geddon as an example, even though the mega with blasters has an advantage in raw DPS, in most relistic situation the geddon prob wins the damage race since it gets to start shooting right away while the poor mega has to move his whole ship.
Charts and graphs such as the one a couple posts above me, are nothing more then eye candy. They make it seem that the geddon does poorly, untill one looks at it objectivly and notices that its nothing more then a graph based around set ups that have no practical application in game.
I feel the need to repeat myself once again. THOSE STATS WERE NOT TO COMPARE ACTUAL FITTINGS, THE POINT WAS TO CALCULATE THE PERCENTAGE OF DPS LEFT AFTER EANMIIs + DC TANKS VS 3X ACTIVE HARDENER TANKS. IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO SHOW RAW DPS COMPARISONS BUT RATHER COMPARE DPS AFTER RESISTANCES. Yeah, capslock ftw. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.18 01:12:00 -
[165]
Well Wayreth, I see your point. But if you look at the graph I posted earlier it pretty much shows what you were asking NB to post. I used the second best T2 guns for all the ships, because you can actually fit duel LAR tanks with them. 650 II's, Ion IIs, and Dual Heavy Pulse II's respectively.
If you look, the Tempest can fit cruise launchers and still have more fittings left over than an Ion II on a Mega. I would say that both the Tempest and the Mega have equal need of the MWD. The Tempest can also just fit heavy launcher II's for slightly less DPS but much easier fittings. Kinda the same thing as as 800s vs 650s. They still have
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.18 01:24:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 18/08/2006 01:26:43
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Wrayeth You don't need a MWD on a 'geddon. You can hit pretty damned far out without having to approach just by switching crystals. As for the neutron mega:
7 modal mega neutron 1 medium nosferatu (it might have grid left over for a heavy - can't remember which I used)
1 quad LiF MWD 1 faint 20km scrambler 1 fleeting web 1 heavy electrochemical cap injector
1 LAR II (or accom - again, it's been a while since I've used this) 1 1600mm rolled tungsten plate 2 EANM II 2 magstab II 1 RCU II
Alternately, you can ditch one of the magstabs for a damage control. And yes, this setup fits. Better luck next time.
Well any idiot would realize that if you would drop the RCU and use Ions and a third magstab you would not only get better DPS but you'd also have much more spare grid for those extra slots. And I would think that the lord of fittings should know this.
Actually you'd fit T2 guns, drop the RCU and drop the heavy booster to a med since that kind of setup is typically in gangs. So anything you shoot will die under that firepower before even a NOS-Domi will suck you dry.
Dixon, instead of asking "who are you wrayth to say what setups are realistic?" who are you Dixon to say they are realistic? Oh yeah, your both players of the same game, obviously his opinion doesn't mean as much as yours does though.
Think of the role of the ship. To fit 800mm AC's and damage mods you need tacklers. That means a gang. What would a Mega probably fit in a gang? Oh yeah gank setup with Neutrons and damage mods. People such as Farjung say this is typical for there gang setups just so you know its not a "mila setup" thing.
Sure it might be just a "show damage after resistances" but it misrepresents the actual comparisons between the damages after resitances if you use setups that are specialised.
Also saying the difference between no damage mods and 3 as you used raises the question, why use them for your comparison at all? Maybe because the higher the starting DPS the bigger the effect of the percentage increase from the damage mods...
Otherwise lets just incluse a torp raven with T2 missiles.... doesn't matter that it needs loads of TP's to get that damage but since this is theory and not realistic setups that have to work. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:08:00 -
[167]
Quote: Also saying the difference between no damage mods and 3 as you used raises the question, why use them for your comparison at all? Maybe because the higher the starting DPS the bigger the effect of the percentage increase from the damage mods...
If you knew anything about basic math you'd know that percentages don't increase like that. The reason I used 3 damage mods was actually that they were part of the template I was using and I didn't bother to change them.
But, just for the sake of arguement, I made some new calculations. Both including dual 650mm's and neutrons and only using one damage mod this time.
Raw DPS output Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 567 Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (1 Dm) ) 553 Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 464 Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 422 Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 488 Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 443 Megathron (Neutron Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 605
DPS after EANMII + DC tank with a single rep. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 200 Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (1 Dm) ) 139 Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 150 Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 183 Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 157 Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 192 Megathron (Neutron Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 214
Percentage of original DPS left after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (1 Dm) ) 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 32.3% of original DPS Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 43.3% of original DPS (22% higher than EMP) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 45.5 %of original DPS (22.7% higher than EMP) Megathron (Neutron Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 35,3% of original DPS
Now against a 3x t2 active hardener tank with a single rep. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 181 (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (1 Dm) ) 196 (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 181 (39% of original DPS) Tempest (Dual 650Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 165 (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (1 Dm) ) 190 (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (1 Dm) ) 181 (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp) Megathron (Neutron Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (1 Dm) ) 193 (31.9% of original DPS) - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:30:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2006 22:07:40 Nos is more effective, yes.
But I hardly ever see any "tempest dps sucks" posts take into account that it *has* 2 heavy nos as well (and does not need cap for guns, too) and has as result a better tank. That is rockpounders point, if you compare a tempest with 6 high slots used for dps with a mega with 7 high slots used for dps..well..it's then quite obvious that the tempest looses even if 1 AC = 1 Blaster.
Wow... sorry but you are wrong...
The Tempest DPS does suck with 2 NOS. The only good damage dealing setup available to it is with 6 dual 425mm IIs, 2 siege launchers and HAIL which has ALOT of drawbacks to it.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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phAnt0m z3r0
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:10:00 -
[169]
look eve make this game inbalanced for a reason if it wasent it would be pointless going up a genst an equal enemy some race ships have better tanks than others some have better damage than others some have better range but less damage i belive the way it is set up is pretty good so what amar cant really hit hard but than can tank well amarr not being able to hit other damage types is not such a bad point they can hit close ranger they can hit at long range there is a reason for everything do you want ccp to turn into a game for noobs that dont know how to use there brain in combat or would you rather it stay a challange i know what i would chose btw i am an amerrr pilot but i also have a caldar and minni alts
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Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:30:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Wrayeth Naughty Boy, any chance you could repost that comparison of the effective DPS of a megapulse 'geddon vs. an autocannon tempest that you did for me? Some of the people in this thread need to see that their effective DPS isn't too dissimilar despite projectiles' explosive damage thanks to the fact that lasers have a much higher DPS to start.
you cant compare megapulse vs ac since with ac you can tank but with a megapulse you cant. no 2 LAR + cap booster for megapulse geddon. If you want compare pulses vs AC you need use dual heavy pulse vs ac, but you cant fit a heavy nosf like tempest with ac does, since there isnt enough cpu
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:33:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2006 22:07:40 Nos is more effective, yes.
But I hardly ever see any "tempest dps sucks" posts take into account that it *has* 2 heavy nos as well (and does not need cap for guns, too) and has as result a better tank. That is rockpounders point, if you compare a tempest with 6 high slots used for dps with a mega with 7 high slots used for dps..well..it's then quite obvious that the tempest looses even if 1 AC = 1 Blaster.
Wow... sorry but you are wrong...
The Tempest DPS does suck with 2 NOS. The only good damage dealing setup available to it is with 6 dual 425mm IIs, 2 siege launchers and HAIL which has ALOT of drawbacks to it.
I never said in that post that an autopests dps sucks or not. That was not the point.
I was saying that when people bring up comparsions between it and other ships they quite regulary completely ignore that the pest will have 1 or 2 more heavy nos and as result a better tank (and will make the tank of the other ship worse).
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:53:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Wow... sorry but you are wrong...
The Tempest DPS does suck with 2 NOS. The only good damage dealing setup available to it is with 6 dual 425mm IIs, 2 siege launchers and HAIL which has ALOT of drawbacks to it.
If DPS is the problem, as it seems to be since you are saying it sucks so much, why wouldn't you just fit 650 IIs and Cruise IIs? DPS is generally better than Ions except at below 6km range (understandably) and you still have more leftover grid/cpu than an Ion Mega. Alternatively just fit 650 IIs and Heavy Launcher IIs since they give you almost the same performance DPS wise as Cruise at a fraction of the fitting cost.
Generally speaking, 2 unbonused missile launchers will provide roughly the equivalent DPS of 1 bonused gun in the same size. It would seem common sense to mount launchers over Nos if DPS is a serious problem.
Interestingly enough, AC 425 II's and Siege II's provide almost *EXACTLY* the same DPS as 650 IIs and Cruise IIs, and the only deviate substantially at 25KM+. And even then it's less that 4 or 5% damage. I haven't calculated it out, are 425 IIs + Siege IIs easier to fit than 650 IIs and Cruise IIs? I know your suggested setup is much more difficult to fit than 650 IIs + Heavy Launcher IIs.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Soyemia
Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:02:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Rockpounder
2. Lasers looses the most DPS to an EANM II + DC tank.
No. Every1 loses as much, 20%. Go back to mathematics class.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:16:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Soyemia
Originally by: Rockpounder
2. Lasers looses the most DPS to an EANM II + DC tank.
No. Every1 loses as much, 20%. Go back to mathematics class.
Ok......I really can't help myself here, even though I know that post is just incredibly ignorant flamebait.
"Oldschool" Tanking:
Active Thermal, Kinetic, Expl hardener, + Repper + Plate = 60EM/60Therm/60Expl/60Kin resists give or take a bit for racial flavoring.
"Newschool" Tanking:
EAN IIx2 + DC + Repper: 80/60/60/60 resists. Better resists, easier to fit, costs no cap, and needs 1 less low slot \o/. 4TW!
So tell me, whats the difference between those hardening profiles? Oh ya, everyone now takes 50% less EM damage. And we have further devalued low slots because the DC functions as a plate as well. And they are SO GOOD that you would have to be a complete moron or VERY low sp player not to use EAN IIs + DC for pvp. Seriously.
If 80% resists is balanced then lets boost EANs or DCs so that the new resistance profile is 80% across the board. But no one wants to do that because it wouldnt be balanced. Yet that is what Amarr are fighting every single day since the changes.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:18:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Soyemia
Originally by: Rockpounder
2. Lasers looses the most DPS to an EANM II + DC tank.
No. Every1 loses as much, 20%. Go back to mathematics class.
hmm - I think he'd need to keep you a seat
em resists are normally 60% on armour - if you have no tank or a three active hardener tank
With a DC/EANM II tank em goes to about 80%
So if your primary damage type is em you lose up to (depending on crystals) 50% of your damage not 20%
As other races do not use (or can choose not to) em as a primary damage type they are not as badly impacted by the prevelance of dc/eanm II tanks.
The reasons why most people, if they have the skills ofc, use a DC/EANM tank have been explained at length and I'm not going to rehearse them.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:19:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Soyemia
Originally by: Rockpounder
2. Lasers looses the most DPS to an EANM II + DC tank.
No. Every1 loses as much, 20%. Go back to mathematics class.
EANMII + DC is more than 20%, heck just the EANMII is more than 20% if you have compensation skills, which most people have to lvl4.
The Old school 3 hardner setup has been made obsolete due to people using 2 EANM II + DC. This means that lasers do indeed lose most to a EANMII & DC Tank. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:41:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Nyxus "Oldschool" Tanking:
Active Thermal, Kinetic, Expl hardener, + Repper + Plate = 60EM/60Therm/60Expl/60Kin resists give or take a bit for racial flavoring.
"Newschool" Tanking:
EAN IIx2 + DC + Repper: 80/60/60/60 resists. Better resists, easier to fit, costs no cap, and needs 1 less low slot \o/. 4TW!
What I'm always saying - specific hardeners need boosting compared to omni-hardeners.
In either case, the "old school" hardener setup is slightly off. On a Megathron (base: 60/10/35/35) you get 60/55/67.5/67.5 - essentially with this lasers suffer less and hybrids suffer more while projectiles (exp damage) are still the best. With T2 active tanks you get 60/59.5/70.75/70.75
On the "new school" it's also slightly off in a similar way - kin/th resists are too low while Exp resists are slightly too high... but the illustration is perfect there - lasers deal least damage and projectiles most damage (although I haven't verified EMP versus AM nor the T2 damage variants).
(per ammo discharge - i.e. not counting damage modifiers nor rate of fire only damage types and damage amounts) Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:58:00 -
[178]
Everybody is repeating themselfs in this thread, and there is nothing being said here that wasnt said in the 62 page long Amarr thread.
Maybe its time to give this "issue" a rest?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:03:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Everybody is repeating themselfs in this thread, and there is nothing being said here that wasnt said in the 62 page long Amarr thread.
Maybe its time to give this "issue" a rest?
Ignoring the issue isn't going to make it go away. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
The Wizz117
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:39:00 -
[180]
Edited by: The Wizz117 on 18/08/2006 17:39:00 if u would spend all that time u spend on reading that 75 long page topic and creating all topics around it like these, u would have enough isk to buy a nice caldari character.
------------------------------------------- That ccp created a universe doesen't mean they'r gods
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:44:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Everybody is repeating themselfs in this thread, and there is nothing being said here that wasnt said in the 62 page long Amarr thread.
Maybe its time to give this "issue" a rest?
Ignoring the issue isn't going to make it go away.
No, but maybe you can agree to disagree. Because this isnt going anywhere.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:50:00 -
[182]
You can ignore the problem (like you did with the armor/shieldtanker numerical imbalance) or you can try to prove it otherwise.
Currently you are doing the first thing, and as Dixon said: ignoring does not make it go away.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:54:00 -
[183]
Aramendel, I knew you would show up. You guys work in pairs...like Batman & Robin. Now.. which one is Batman? :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:58:00 -
[184]
I am obviously Robin.
You're the Joker, sometimes incoherent and impossible to reason with.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 18:00:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Aramendel I am obviously Robin.
You're the Joker, sometimes incoherent and impossible to reason with.
You sound like my mother. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.18 18:21:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Nyxus on 18/08/2006 18:24:18
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Nyxus "Oldschool" Tanking:
Active Thermal, Kinetic, Expl hardener, + Repper + Plate = 60EM/60Therm/60Expl/60Kin resists give or take a bit for racial flavoring.
"Newschool" Tanking:
EAN IIx2 + DC + Repper: 80/60/60/60 resists. Better resists, easier to fit, costs no cap, and needs 1 less low slot \o/. 4TW!
What I'm always saying - specific hardeners need boosting compared to omni-hardeners.
In either case, the "old school" hardener setup is slightly off. On a Megathron (base: 60/10/35/35) you get 60/55/67.5/67.5 - essentially with this lasers suffer less and hybrids suffer more while projectiles (exp damage) are still the best. With T2 active tanks you get 60/59.5/70.75/70.75
On the "new school" it's also slightly off in a similar way - kin/th resists are too low while Exp resists are slightly too high... but the illustration is perfect there - lasers deal least damage and projectiles most damage (although I haven't verified EMP versus AM nor the T2 damage variants).
(per ammo discharge - i.e. not counting damage modifiers nor rate of fire only damage types and damage amounts)
True. It's varies among races as each has seperate specific racial armor bonuses:
Apoc: 60/20/25/35 base yielding 60EM/60Expl/62.5Kin/67.5Therm with 3 actives
Tempest 70/10/25/35 base yielding 70EM/55Expl/62.5Kin/67.5Therm with 3 actives
Mega 60/10/35/35 base you get 60EM/55Expl/67.5Kin/67.5 Therm
Shooting a Mega lasers suffer less and Hybrids a bit more. Shooting a Tempest lasers suffer MUCH more than Hybrids. Shooting an Apoc it's pretty close. The racial bonuss flavours armor resists more than I think most people realize. Interestingly enough a Raven's base armor is 60/10/25/45 which is enough to make Hybrid users weep. Luckily, Ravens are shieldtanks. Well, they would be if they weren't just jamming everyone into uselessness.
Point being, it was pretty balanced before with all the weapon adjustments that lead up to the EAN II + DC combo. Then it all just went to crap for anyone who uses primarily EM damage and can't change it.
I disagree with you only in the detail of the specific hardeners issue. I would rather see passive individuals boosted up to 50% with skills (they currently set at 37.5 base before skills) while EAN IIs get hit with a nerf back down to 15% base, and reducing cpu use on the EAN T2 variety significantly as compensation. This leaves active T2 as the only way to boost 55% resists. Here is my reasoning:
- Even if passive individuals were boosted without nerfing Omni hardeners (EAN) no one would use them because you get the more hardening for the same CPU.
- Individual hardening requires 4 slots (3 hardeners +DC) while Omni uses only 3 (EAN IIx2 + DC
- T2 Actives remain the only way to boost resists for 55% (balanced as they require more cpu)
- T1 actives remain viable, if higher cpu than passives, for low sp players
Simply boosting individual hardening isn't enough to get people to switch. Even at the same CPU needs, the extra slot freed by using EAN IIs + DC is too potent. Even if you boosted individual passives to 55% with skills no one would use them, and you would render all active hardeners redundant.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.08.18 19:41:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Ecnav Edited by: Ecnav on 16/08/2006 05:03:04 It's impossible for focused light to do kinetic and/or explosive damage. (unless you hit a minmatar ammo store or something)
Do the words "solar sail" mean anything to you?
Look it up.
Now, imagine that light amplified, and then concentrated on a small point. ---------- My sig is boring. |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.08.20 06:47:00 -
[188]
If you make the individual hardeners better for global resists than the all resist module, what reason is there to use the all resist module? If you want resistances to everything, the resist all module is supposed to be the best.
Single resist hardeners are for patching resistance holes, or when you know what damage types you will encounter. The problem is not how people choose to armor tank, but that they ALL choose to armor tank. If shield tanking were more common, the problem would go away.
Maybe they should make warp scramblers a high slot item. Then it would be easier to solo pirate with a shield tank (Using Drones for web and/or ECM). |
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.08.20 07:54:00 -
[189]
First and foremost, RL science has never mattered in eve.
Secondly, what exactly is explosive damage?
Thirdly, if youve ever seen a laser hit something before, you would agree that it looked more like an explosions than anything else.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.20 10:51:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Death Kill on 20/08/2006 10:50:56 Still debating rl physics eh?
*bump*
For the state for the state for the state |
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Sean Drake
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.20 10:58:00 -
[191]
Please change your signature to match the 400x120 pixel rule. - Ivan K |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.20 11:00:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Nyxus
- Even if passive individuals were boosted without nerfing Omni hardeners (EAN) no one would use them because you get the more hardening for the same CPU.
- Individual hardening requires 4 slots (3 hardeners +DC) while Omni uses only 3 (EAN IIx2 + DC
- T2 Actives remain the only way to boost resists for 55% (balanced as they require more cpu)
- T1 actives remain viable, if higher cpu than passives, for low sp players
As long as the specific ones are boosted compared to omni ones. It doesn't really matter if you bump specifics up or nerf omnies down.
In either case, I cannot agree with point three on the list. More intensive fittings in combination with activation requirement and capacitor cost means you are investing more in the item. Skill requirements is just a one-off time sink. However, the difference between fully skilled passives versus actives doesn't need to be anywhere near as high as it is today. If T1 actives were 55% and T2 actives were 60% with fully skilled passives at 50%, I think there'd be enough difference that some'd favour the passives and some'd favour the actives without one being obviously better (arbitrary values, point is that actives, with higher requirements, should be slightly better than passives purely resistance-wise). It'd also increase tanks slightly, which is something CCP is in favour of. Personally, I'd like to increase hit points instead of tanks, but... that's a different discussion. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 12:19:00 -
[193]
The "needs one less slot" bonus is IMO still outweighting "needs more cap/fitting" easily. Just look at shield tanks. Standard 3 slot tank is there 2 invul and 1 EM harderner, not 1 em, therm, kin.
The whole EM issue is there because there is a viaable omnires harderner for armor. It could as well be active and have an high energyuse like invul fields, it wouldn't change much in the issue.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:19:00 -
[194]
Quote: If you make the individual hardeners better for global resists than the all resist module, what reason is there to use the all resist module? If you want resistances to everything, the resist all module is supposed to be the best.
That's the point: nerfing Armor Omni's so no one uses them. They have unbalanced racial damage and that is a significant problem.
Originally by: Ithildin If T1 actives were 55% and T2 actives were 60% with fully skilled passives at 50%, I think there'd be enough difference that some'd favour the passives and some'd favour the actives without one being obviously better
I think thats a fantastic idea. I wouldn't want to boost active T2 to anymore than 60%, but with the individual passives reaching 50% it would make everything have a specific place again. In any case, Omni armor hardeners *NEED* to be reduced back down to 15% in order to push people back to individual hardening and rebalance racial damage.
And personally I would like to see tanking boosted through armor hp as well. Uber resists have too many balancing problems. Now with DCs in the game I would really like to see plates and extenders have thier fitting reqs SEVERELY lowered. And some capital ship sized plates introduced that could be fit on battleships. Longer battles through high hp is good.
Originally by: Aramendel The "needs one less slot" bonus is IMO still outweighting "needs more cap/fitting" easily. Just look at shield tanks. Standard 3 slot tank is there 2 invul and 1 EM harderner, not 1 em, therm, kin.
The whole EM issue is there because there is a viaable omnires harderner for armor. It could as well be active and have an high energyuse like invul fields, it wouldn't change much in the issue.
QFT
Omni armor hardeners need to be nerfed. No way around it. They unbalace racial damage and devalue low slots even more than they do now. We need more modules to value low slots MORE than they are now. DC's were a start, changing back to individual hardeners is moving back in the right direction. Low slot ECCM boosting would be good with some plate love in my opinion. Anything to get away from "Well I don't have anything else to put in these 4 lows, guess I will just use WCS...."
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 14:44:00 -
[195]
Although I myself would still prefer tinkering with the base resists instead of making omnis useless. Single are better in PvE, Omnis better in PvP. Don't see much of a problem there. EAN2 is too strong, but thats mainly because it is an passive module.
Also, one thing what people miss is that a plated setup is for lasers just the same as an EAN2 setup - the realation of the different resistances is identical there. All EAN2 is doing is reducing the damage from all sources by 50%. No real difference if you do half the dps or have to chew through twice the armor...
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.20 16:26:00 -
[196]
7 pages and no reply... bump for you
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DrEiak
Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium
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Posted - 2006.08.20 17:53:00 -
[197]
So many people off topic allready.
Kin and therm drones are NOT the only ones that do damage, silly gallente. If they were then I ask you why so many people use explosive drones in PvP? There is nothing like a vagabond using 3 warrior II's on top of the allready uber damage they deal.
Second of all, people are saying amarr as a race are not completly ruined. THAT IS CRAP! Amarr WEREN'T completly ruined until the last few patches. Every race is supposed to have superiority in at least one field.
Caldari as a race are supposed to be best shield tank/ best EW/ best missle race... that is a LOT of bests..
Gallente as a race are supposed to be "best" DPS (this is kinda debatable but none the less CCPs intentions) especially at close range (blaster specialty) and/or best drones. Gallente were supposed to have decent tanks but not the best.
Minmataar as a race are supposed to have the best speed, and sig radius (making them the hardest race to hit). Best falloff making high damage ammo the easiest to use since tracking is usually low on projectiles (unless you use autocannons). Lastly the MOST options, although some minmataar call this a two sided sword.
Amarr as a race are SUPPOSED TO HAVE (but dont) the best tanks, and the best armor. Amarr do not have any more HP then caldari ships, I know, I checked. In fact ravens have MORE HP then an apoc. Our race is far from the king of anything at the moment, so anyone who thinks amarr require anything less then a complete overhaul (i am not asking for an un-nerf, just a someone to rethink what the amarr are supposed to do the best -better then any other race- and make our ships do that, if it is the best tanks and low DPS we need a LOT of luv.)
If you can think of ONE thing the amarr do better then any other race then I will agree, we dont need to be changed, but at the moment gallente AND caldari both can tank better then amarr. All races out DPS amarr, INCLUDING the geddon, and as soon as we get a good ship (curse) it gets nerfed (kali and NOS nerf).
Also saying that amarr dont use ammo is bull if you argue that minmataar only have two damage types on T2 level. Our ammo costs the most AND gets used up on the T2 level, on top of that, it gets used up in random intervals so it is harder to plan how much crystals to bring along, and you can only bring WHOLE crystals, leaving you with MILLIONS of isk worth of ammo for any op using T2 crystals.
Minmataar bonuses to projectiles ARE real bonuses they dont just make projectiles usable, after all look at OUR ships fitting projectiles. We use projectiles to make AMARR usable so dont ***** that you only get RoF and damage bonuses, i will stab you in the throat.
My argument is that there should be at least one reason to fly amarr and that should not be based on lasers = no ammo, since our ammo is our capacitors, and if you ask me that is a MUCH bigger disadvantage currently then an advantage. THAT is why lasers draw so much energy. We should not be getting gimped this hard because T1 crystals dont get consumed in energy weapons.
My suggestion has been stated many many times but I will reiterate. To fix amarr, quite simply put, our ships require better roll bonuses to do this I suggest:
Lasers get flat 25% reduction in cap usage, controlled burst skill is changed to 10% cap reduction, 10% bonus is removed from ALL amarr ships and replaced with some type of armor bonus. This would make amarr have the same DPS and cap usage on lasers, but would make amarr the king of tanks. Our ships would have either the thickest armor by a large margin, the best resistances by a moderate margin, or equal armor rep as gallente. I also think that more amarr ships should get NOS/Neut bonus (as an alternative to amarr bonus) since this has been opened up by the devs as an "amarr thing" even though currently all races luv to NOS. If you do the math on my suggestions I dont think anyone can complain. PLUS laser cap usage would be the same for ALL races.
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DrEiak
Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium
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Posted - 2006.08.20 17:59:00 -
[198]
My suggestion also makes MWD blaster boats better since hybrids would use less cap as well (changing controlled bursts to 10% reduces cap for both lasers and hybrids)
I also still think minmataar need to be tweeked, but not boosted or gimped, just changed slightly. They are still the 2nd most skill intensive race.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.20 18:37:00 -
[199]
Originally by: DrEiak So many people off topic allready.
Kin and therm drones are NOT the only ones that do damage, silly gallente. If they were then I ask you why so many people use explosive drones in PvP? There is nothing like a vagabond using 3 warrior II's on top of the allready uber damage they deal.
EM is the most resisted armor on a t1 hull. Explosive is the most resisted shield of a t1 hull. Thermal and kinetic make great damage types for *all around* pvp. If you are using t2 minmatar ammo you only get explosive and kinetic. Thus you will want a teriary damage that will help you. Thermal is the best combination in this case.
If you are in a laser ship obviously you want explosive as a tertiary damage. Kinetic is a great supplement to a missiles and other kinetic rounds.
Quote: Second of all, people are saying amarr as a race are not completly ruined. THAT IS CRAP! Amarr WEREN'T completly ruined until the last few patches. Every race is supposed to have superiority in at least one field.
So... tell me what the minmatar are great at again? I read futher down but those don't really count because they don't really make us great. The amount of fidling with our setups, having hodgepodge configs that are basically half assed variations of other races ( yes we know how to fly YOUR ships better then you do since ours mimic them in many ways ), the amount of SP involved in making our ships worthy to undock and the fact we just look better in portraits.... is why we are superior. Not that we have any role in the game other than being a time sink.
We have only a few ships that truely stand out and one of them is imo a bit easy to be an exploitative bastage with. That is the vagabond. We have some good ships but they are in equal measure to every other race including amarr. Not only do I love the omen, pilgrim, arbitrator, armageddon, apoc, punisher, maller, zealot, heretic, sacrelidge and malediction... but I own them all too and on 2 dedicated amarr accounts no less. Broke? I don't think so. If I want to kill someone I just know before hand not to fight armor tankers or I roll with friends that complement me.
If you think there is a increase in armor tanking even on shield oriented ships I won't disagree... but that isn't an amarr issue... that is an ECM crisis that *is* being changed.
kthxbye.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:43:00 -
[200]
Even without ECM medslots are still far, far better.
Which important mods do you have in lows? Armortank, damage mods and (should you need them) fitting mods. Meds? Ab/MWD, cap injector, web, disrutor, shield tank and all EW of cource (ecm, tracking disruptors, sensor damperners). ECCM, tracking comps and sensor boosters are available for lows and meds, but favour meds because their versions are stronger.
Also, even without the whole medslot issue there are still, from the basic shipdesign, twice as many armor than shieldtankers. Saying "one has to search for shieldtankers" is nice and fine, but how do you justify that amarr is the *only* race which has to do so? Minnies can switch to EMP for shieldtanks (which is also their highest dps t1 ammo) and even ignoring this will still face only half as many shieldtankers as amarr armortankers.
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Auryn Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.21 21:45:00 -
[201]
Ye shall not be forgotten!
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Wizzkidy
Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.08.21 23:22:00 -
[202]
I'm not going to read the whole 7 pages but I do have a few points to raise
Ammar themselves do indeed seem to get the short end of the stick, any ship can slap on some t2 hardners and get good resistances and last probably as long as an apoc or a geddon, the fact comes into it that with a huge tank like that on an apoc or a geddon means you have just completely gimped your dps and damage output.
This is something that does need addressing, even with decent skills I still struggle to fit an apoc properly, and tbh i eithe gimp it tank or i gimp in gank!? Not great.
just me 2p
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Ayalina Darkblade
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Posted - 2006.08.22 06:46:00 -
[203]
bump
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.22 06:48:00 -
[204]
I recommend Dr Phil for your issues.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.22 07:22:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 22/08/2006 07:22:47
Originally by: Aramendel Also, even without the whole medslot issue there are still, from the basic shipdesign, twice as many armor than shieldtankers. Saying "one has to search for shieldtankers" is nice and fine, but how do you justify that amarr is the *only* race which has to do so? Minnies can switch to EMP for shieldtanks (which is also their highest dps t1 ammo) and even ignoring this will still face only half as many shieldtankers as amarr armortankers.
Tracking disruptor's are perfect for fighting armor reparing ships all ewar being equal. Those are almost always turret based ships save for the typhoon. EMP comes with great drawbacks ( range ) and Proton comes at a great drawback ( damage ) while at the same time projectiles have both worse tracking and damage over time. Lets not mention ammo use?
Like I said... if you feel there is a rant to be worthy let it be the lack of shield tanks in EVE PvP not the fact the amarr are broken. Its just not true when ECM is what is broken and makes shield tanking very unoptimized. As for shield tanking ships in EVE? anything with 4+ midslots with a bonus, or 5+ midslots with no bonus can be a shield tanker. Quite a few ships in the game that fall in this category.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.22 08:54:00 -
[206]
It's not that easy.
Take a dominix, for example. 5 meds, 7 lows. So it "should" be a viaable shieldtanker if ECM is nerfed. Exept it won't, and thats ignoring that it has a good amount more armor than shields. Shieldtank on it would not only mean no EW but also no ab/mwd, no warp disruptor, no cap booster and no webber. For it's lows it can fit damagemods (usually won't since drones are the only dps) and/or an armor rep. Now what would be leaps and bounds more effective? ECM is not the only reason why have so few armortankers in PvP.
Also, I did not say Amarr are broken. EM damage is due to this (and the "introduction" of an viaable omnires armor harderner in RMR), though. One option would be to change a good amount of ships to shieldtankers, the other to balance out the EM resists on armor. Like moving 10-15% from armor to shield. Which is what seems to me the best solution for this.
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.22 09:17:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Parallax Error The *only* current problems with Amarr ships are this:
1) Since the 2 x EANM2 and 1DC tank became better than a 3 x hardener tank for all round resists, Amarr damage has approximately dropped by a third versus a good proportion of most normally encountered setups in PvP.
2) Khanid ships have no real flavour to them, I think a much better general line for them would be the armour tanking and missile using ships.
I would add: 3) T2 crystals need to be cheaper with fewer shots to make fitting (and losing!) more affordable. Currently Amarr have the worst of both worlds with both finite shots and expense of purchase. Losing a T2-fitted Amarr BS hurts a lot more than losing one of another race.
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Warnings
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Posted - 2006.08.24 17:48:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Warnings on 24/08/2006 17:48:28 T2 crystal need a production too too too too and too high !!!
6 crystal day = 2 days for fitt 1 arma or 1 apoc // you compare with another ammo. How much you can fitt a ship with 5k of ammo ? 25 ships for 0.7 amarr ship ?
CCP, you have tested the amarr ??? But not one ship T2 ! ALL SHIPS AND ALL TURRETS !
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:12:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2006 12:12:39 The cargoholds of amarr ships are already smaller since they do not extra space for ammo.
For example: Prophecy: 350 m¦, Cyclone: 475 m¦
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:19:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Aramendel It's not that easy.
Take a dominix, for example. 5 meds, 7 lows. So it "should" be a viaable shieldtanker if ECM is nerfed. Exept it won't, and thats ignoring that it has a good amount more armor than shields. Shieldtank on it would not only mean no EW but also no ab/mwd, no warp disruptor, no cap booster and no webber. For it's lows it can fit damagemods (usually won't since drones are the only dps) and/or an armor rep. Now what would be leaps and bounds more effective? ECM is not the only reason why have so few armortankers in PvP.
I think you are making some bold absolutes. You keep saying won't like people are reading your words as gospel. There is nothing wrong with a dominix shield tanker, active OR passive. There is this little idea of opportunity cost that most people will not take the next best alternative to ECM, which is sheild tanking.
The dominix is very versatile of a ship. May I remind you that more HP on a certain stat, such as armor HP vs shield HP, doesn't dictate the role it lives in. If that were so the Typhoon would be a shield tanker. No, infact the stats would suggest the dominix could live as both a shield tanker ( high CPU + 5 Mids + fitting free damage source ) and an armor tanker. Just as it can live as a gun ship or a drone ship or both.
Infact, if CCP wanted to really shake things up the domi would loose its gun bonus and pick up an RSD bonus.
All that being said... opportunity cost is the biggest issue here not so much as what dps a laser can do vs armor.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:21:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2006 12:12:39 The cargoholds of amarr ships are already smaller since they do not extra space for ammo.
For example: Prophecy: 350 m¦, Cyclone: 475 m¦
I think you will find this is because they didn't want it to be a super miner. 6 miner 2s and 6 cargo expanders with a big cargo hold would make many people bypass barges.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.26 12:51:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2006 12:55:17
Originally by: Kaylana Syi I think you are making some bold absolutes. You keep saying won't like people are reading your words as gospel. There is nothing wrong with a dominix shield tanker, active OR passive. There is this little idea of opportunity cost that most people will not take the next best alternative to ECM, which is sheild tanking.
The dominix is very versatile of a ship. May I remind you that more HP on a certain stat, such as armor HP vs shield HP, doesn't dictate the role it lives in. If that were so the Typhoon would be a shield tanker. No, infact the stats would suggest the dominix could live as both a shield tanker ( high CPU + 5 Mids + fitting free damage source ) and an armor tanker. Just as it can live as a gun ship or a drone ship or both.
Infact, if CCP wanted to really shake things up the domi would loose its gun bonus and pick up an RSD bonus.
All that being said... opportunity cost is the biggest issue here not so much as what dps a laser can do vs armor.
I said "ignoring that it has a good amount more armor than shields". I know very well that it does not dictate which tank a ship can use, but it is an advantage. But, in either case, I was not including it in my argumentation, so hitting on that point is pointless.
Secondly, if a domi would be using guns a shieldtank would be an even worse alternative than an armortank as it would be with drones only. Guns = no nos + higher capuse. So it will need an cap injector for PvP. And it will also be gimped without a ab/mwd since it needs to have stuff in range to shoot at it. So it can use 3 slos for a shieldtank... Even if it uses 3 damage mods it will still have 4 slots left for an armortank. No matter how you look at it, an armortank on the domi is more effective. Sure you *can* shieldtank it, but you would be stupid if you do. It is simply not effective. Higher shields do not make a ship automatically an viable shieldtank, but neither do make 5 med slots a ship automatically one, too.
Originally by: Kaylana Syi I think you will find this is because they didn't want it to be a super miner. 6 miner 2s and 6 cargo expanders with a big cargo hold would make many people bypass barges.
Sleipnir has 7 turrets and the Damnation 4, still same cargohold as on the t1 ships on both of these. And the cargohold *can* change from t1-> t2, look at the nighthawk vs ferox.
Also, Amarr ships had a smaller cargohold since the beginning of the game before barges even existed.
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Monoklas
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Posted - 2006.08.26 13:18:00 -
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Surely there are so many people complaining, there must be an issuse here....
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