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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:25:00 -
[1]
In Red Moon Rising we got a complete tanking overhaul.
Tux changed the armor plates to avoid that oversized modules fitted on small ships.
And what do we have today? Almost every PvP fitted cruiser flies around with a 1600 Plate. Vexors, Raxes, Mallers, Ruppies... All of them sacrifice Firepower and fit small Guns.
I can¦t decide what¦s more rediculous. Frigate weapons on a cruiser or batlleship modules on a cruiser?
Some minutes ago I fought a Rifter, Ishkur and a Vexor gang in my Prophecy. Especially the Vexor was a pain in the ass to kill. 1600mm with 2 eanm. The most damage of my heavy pulses with Multifrequency has gone to nowhere.
I won the fight btw, but it was damn close. And now I understand why Amarr ships are really screwed. Almost 90% of all PvPers fly armor tanked ships.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:30:00 -
[2]
I fit 1600mm plates to all my cruisers because in the present environment cap is everything. There's just no place for a cruiser to be using an MAR.
Everyone's carrying Nos; ECM only makes it worse as you have to tank the entire cycle without Nos'ing back. So the only practical approach is to passive tank (plate + EANM) and maybe fit a Small/Medium repper to patch up damage afterwards.
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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Hydrian Alante on 16/08/2006 21:34:52 So the whole system is inbalanced and screwed up to death. We are now back to the old Nos and ECM story.
Balance problems that are existing for 9 months now and ccp is doing nothing about it. Sometimes I think Tux is watching **** movies all day long and is getting paid for that.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:37:00 -
[4]
Its called adaptation to the changing times. Hopefully though, ECM will get a nerf! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Win a Cynabal for 10ml!!! |
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:37:00 -
[5]
In short: Maller is made for 1600mm rolled tungsten lovin'. ------- I'm not an alt. |
EDabyss
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:40:00 -
[6]
answer 1600mm on cruiser maller yes zealot yes most other amarr frigs no ^^
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Jimmycs83
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:41:00 -
[7]
part of the problem also is that the dmg difference between the two sets of guns just isnt all that much .. even on whats supposed to be the seriously close range high damage rax, fitting T2 small neuts wont gimp your damage all that much (bieng that a large part of it comes from drones) compared to fitting Med electron blaster IIs.
Ontop of this you have to take the tracking of small guns into consideration. Cruisers are only really good at killing other cruisers and ships smaller than themselves while solo ... T2 small guns hit afs/inties at close range alot better.
then theres also the nos issue as pointed out above me. Personally i love flying my rax (which i have good skills for) with med T2 guns but in 99% of cases the huge passive tank of a 1600mm plate and a marginally reduced damage output is just more practical.
Jimmy
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ArwenUndomiel
Starlancers
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Posted - 2006.08.16 21:53:00 -
[8]
On my main character (who is inactive hence posting using this) the main t1 cruiser I fly is my Vexor which gets it's main damage fom the drones so from my pov there is no point in fitting medium guns on it if I can fit a better tank.
I recall Tux saying there would be penalties for fitting oversized plates but in this case the advantages far outwiegh any drawbacks to fitting one on certain ships the Vexor being one the Thorax another.
At the end of the day you need to maximise your time alive in combat with focus fire I recall one occasion a while back where I had an ishtar and several inty's on me they got me to structure but I held out long enough for support to arrive at me.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:06:00 -
[9]
Big plate, small guns. Only ship that really benefits is the Vexor because of DOT and energy drain, IMHO. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:09:00 -
[10]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 22:09:36
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Big plate, small guns. Only ship that really benefits is the Vexor because of DOT and energy drain, IMHO.
Sure, but big plates and big guns benefits everyone. Hence the 1600mm Electron 'rax or my hacked up 1600mm Medium (yes, medium-sized not frigate-sized) pulse Maller . I think the Rupture can do it too with Dual 180s.
I never actually understood the 1600mm / Light Neutron 'rax. The Vexor can do the same thing but with higher DPS...
Edited for "medium pulse" clarification.
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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Big plate, small guns. Only ship that really benefits is the Vexor because of DOT and energy drain, IMHO.
Never heard about the Duramaller? Nearly every Rax is flyin with small neutron II and a RT 1600.
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Jimmycs83
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Big plate, small guns. Only ship that really benefits is the Vexor because of DOT and energy drain, IMHO.
maller? Never flown it myself so cant comment ... never killed one without a 1600mm on it tho
Thorax is i know arguable but after alot of use on TQ ive found the fact that a 1600mm plate setup kills close range frigs faster, is less fragile when it comes to nos and can give you longer to deagress/jump/dock/warp/call in gang mates etc etc etc just makes it alot better. My personal opnion ofc.
Jimmy
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:21:00 -
[13]
The only reason 1600mm plate and small T2 guns work because of the game mechanics favour small ship guns vs larger objects. Small T2 guns have higher average DPS than the average DPS of medium guns. They work for cruiser vs cruiser and cruiser vs small ship with small guns. Tracking and signature size are the reason for this "hack". No point medium guns have high damage when you get 2 good shots out of 5 and small guns get 4 good shots out of 5. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:32:00 -
[14]
My maller is a niche ship. Plated, yes. Durable, yes. Solopwnmobile, no. I MWD web, 7.5 scram and tackle, get in under guns and nos the sleazebag to death. With support I don't even need guns. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Win a Cynabal for 10ml!!! |
Jimmycs83
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
I never actually understood the 1600mm / Light Neutron 'rax. The Vexor can do the same thing but with higher DPS...
similar damage but (with the setups im using atm) you can fit a MWD and Med rep on the rax. My two favoutire gallente cruiser setups atm are :
rax : 4*Light Neut IIs, Med Nos MWD, Web, Scram Med Armor Rep II,2*EAN II, 1600mm rolled plate, Power diagnostic 5*Med t2 drones
vexor : 4*125mm rail IIs, med nos AB, web, scram small armor rep II, 2* EAN IIs, 1600mm rolled plate 5*Med t2 drones, 5*Light T2 drones
Not sure what teh exact damage difference between the two is but im prefering the rax atm.
Jimmy
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Dethis
Caldari Eve University
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:46:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Dethis on 16/08/2006 22:54:49 It seems that everyone is fitting 1600 plates these days
My personal vexor involves MAR II and an 800 plate but i might give in to the hype and try out the 1600 one -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:46:00 -
[17]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 22:46:36 Alright, I couldn't resist a graph of this. I went for a 4x150mm Vexor (my personal setup) and a 4xLight Neutron Rax, no damage mods on either. I also added the 1600mm Electron 'rax setup that's been floating around for fun.
1600_vexor_vs_rax.png
Well, you're right about the damage being close! The MWD advantage is almost negated by the Vexor being able to sustain its damage outside range. I guess it does come down to personal preference in the end.
Edit: Oops, I think that's actually a 5xLNB 'rax. Can't figure out how to do limited guns in NB's spreadsheet. Meh, it's near fair enough.
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MOS DEF
Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:54:00 -
[18]
Actually you can fit medium sized autocannons AND a 1600mm RT on a rupture and you don`t even need a fitting mod. Those plates fit on cruisers way to easy.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 22:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: MOS DEF Actually you can fit medium sized autocannons AND a 1600mm RT on a rupture and you don`t even need a fitting mod. Those plates fit on cruisers way to easy.
Shh, damnit! Plates are the only thing my Maller still has going for it.
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Deepeh
Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:04:00 -
[20]
Is it not obvious? Without a plate a Cruiser will get killed by... anything.
This is all how EVE is balanced at the moment. While a battleship can be made to sustain their tank, a cruiser will not be able to do the same, because they suck so god damn much. And a cruisers tank is just awful anyway, so its better to fitt plates to increase hp which makes you survive longer without worrying.
Only way to fix this is to balance out the classes again, homeworld style.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly. |
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Tribunal
Darkblade Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:34:00 -
[21]
Small nuetrons aren't even close to the same DPS as heavy electrons on a Thorax. Tracking is really a none issue for heavy electrons if you have the most basic of mods for any blaster setup: a web.
The reason people fit small nuetrons on a 1600 armored Thorax is because it's about impossible to squeeze heavy electrons on. Is it more viable then a heavy electron, 800 plate thorax? I don't think so.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tribunal The reason people fit small nuetrons on a 1600 armored Thorax is because it's about impossible to squeeze heavy electrons on. Is it more viable then a heavy electron, 800 plate thorax? I don't think so.
5x Heavy Electron Blaster II
1x 10MN Microwarpdrive II 1x Faint Warp Prohibitor I 1x X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
1x Small Armor Repairer II 1x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1x Emergency Damage Control I 1x Reactor Control Unit II
Have fun.
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Hanns
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:47:00 -
[23]
If CCP nerf 1600 plates on cruisers ill probably trade my acount for an uber BS account coz thats all that will be worth flying.
Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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Bluestealth
Minmatar Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.08.17 00:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Big plate, small guns. Only ship that really benefits is the Vexor because of DOT and energy drain, IMHO.
I have to agree... with Jenny... Vexor benefits greatly from the plate... much better then any other cruiser imho. The only reason 1600mm plate and small T2 guns work because of the game mechanics favor small ship guns vs. larger objects. Small T2 guns have higher average DPS than the average DPS of medium guns. They work for cruiser vs cruiser and cruiser vs small ship with small guns. Tracking and signature size are the reason for this "hack". No point medium guns have high damage when you get 2 good shots out of 5 and small guns get 4 good shots out of 5.
IMHO there needs to be MUCH greater separation in the ship classes in the game... frigs need to be Frigates and Cruisers need to be faster... everything bigger then a frig needs to have their armor increased and their damage increased and their signature increased, added with a increase on turret signature radius. Cruisers should be closer to frigates then battleships not in the middle, in both terms of signature radius and armor. battlecruisers are close to the location they need to be already. Microwarpdrives need a decrease or removal of their signature bonus.
Ex... needs ****loads of tweaking :(, I dont envy tuxford, forget about tracking speeds, ship scan resolution when reading, that would take nearly forever to come up with. Shuttles- 450hp 1000 m/s ~ 25 signature Covert Ops- 800hp 1400 m/s ~45 signature Interceptors- 900 hp 2500 m/s ~30 signature Frigates- 1000 hp 1500 m/s ~40 signature Assault Frigates- 1800 hp 1100 m/s ~50 signature
Destroyers- 2500 hp 700 m/s ~110 signature Interdictors- 3300 hp 800 m/s ~125 signature Small Turret Scan Resolution 40 Rocket Missile Explosion Radius 20 Standard Missile Explosion Radius 50
Blockade Runner- 10000 hp 650 m/s ~300 signature Hauler- 9000 hp 250 m/s ~400 signature Transport Ship- 17000 hp 200 m/s ~500 signature Haulers would have lots of structure, weak armor shields. Blockade Runners would have very little structure, a little shield, and some armor. Transport Ships would have lots of structure, armor, shields.
Mining Barge- 14000 hp ~350 signature Exhumer- 18000 hp ~400 signature Barges would have lots of structure, weak armor and shields.
Logistic Cruisers- 15000 hp 500 m/s ~300 signature Cruisers- 13000 hp 550 m/s ~350 signature Recon Ships- 12000 hp 600 m/s ~250 signature Heavy Assault Ships- 18000 hp 450 m/s ~400 signature
Battlecruisers- 31000 hp 250 m/s ~ 1000 signature Command Ships- 35000 hp 225 m/s ~1250 signature Medium Turret Scan Resolution 450 Heavy Missile Explosion Radius 400
Battleships- 45000 hp 200 m/s ~1500 signature Large Turret Scan Resolution 1500 Cruise Missile Explosion Radius 1000 Torpedo Missile Explosion Radius 1500
Carrier- 150000 hp 140 m/s ~2500 signature Dreadnaught- 250000 hp 110 m/s ~3250 signature Mothership- 1000000 hp 50 m/s ~ 4250 signature Titan- 1500000 hp 20 m/s ~5000 signature X-Large Turret Scan Resolution 3500 Citadel Torpedo Explosion Radius 3500
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Locke Ateid
Minmatar Outrider Fleet Command
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Posted - 2006.08.17 00:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Locke Ateid on 17/08/2006 00:14:21
Originally by: Bluestealth ...Microwarpdrives need a decrease or removal of their signature bonus.
0_o
Not until the Crow is removed from the game. The Crow has ruined a lot of options for frigates already, because what was considered balaced for other ships (turret based Ceptors) made it out right invinsible or overpowered.
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Dethis
Caldari Eve University
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Posted - 2006.08.17 00:34:00 -
[26]
Not taking nos into effect. i.e on a vexor where youll be running 2 medium nos of your own is the tank of a 1600 really better for example
1) 1x small rep 1x 1600 plate 2x eanm
vs
2) 1x med rep 1x 800 plate 1x active explo 1x eanm
If like on a vexor since your most likely out nossing your oponent is #2 really worse off then #1?
Just doesnt seem feesible that its worse but hey who knows -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.17 00:48:00 -
[27]
Play with some numbers and see. I'll leave resistances aside because they hurt my brain, so I assume the same hardeners on each. Assume an arbitrary 150 resisted DPS incoming on two tanks...
SAR repairs: 17.78 HP/s MAR repairs: 35.56 HP/s
SAR excess: 132.22 HP/s MAR excess: 114.44 HP/s
Ignoring shield/hull...
SAR runs for: (5685 / 132.22) == 43.0s MAR runs for: (3585 / 114.44) == 31.3s
In total, SAR + 1600mm absorbs (43.0 * 17.78) + 5685 == 6445 HP In total, MAR + 800mm absorbs (31.3 * 35.56) + 3585 == 4698 HP
The 1600mm tank will absorb more damage before it falls over. Things get a little trickier when you account for active hardeners and damage controls (the latter favours the MAR), but even so I think the 1600mm setup will still last longer. And it's a hell of a lot easier on the cap.
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MysticNZ
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.17 01:13:00 -
[28]
I never use anything more than an 800mm plate on my ruppie. I have no problem killing stuff either. -=====-
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Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.17 01:13:00 -
[29]
people always surprise how much of beating Weirda's 800mm/MAR/Medium Guns Rupture can take while putting out way better dmg then any of the 'dura' setup.
people go for min/max and sometimes forget the obvious. very few battle take long enough to drain a cruiser entire cap if it is from cruiser v cruiser - and not fighting an 'all nos' ship, which generally die horribly/quickly if they get ecm'd or can't get range on their nos.
Weirda not see 1600mm setup as imbalanced. having no repairer at all not very practical for long journey without station either. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now |
Luc Boye
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.17 01:23:00 -
[30]
It's a balance problem on diff levels, partly you have everybody fitting ECM and nos (I was nossed and jammed by a vagabond on sisi today). Then there is the issue of too small difference between small/medium/large guns.
Work it out, how much dmg do you gain for fitting medium ions instead of small ones (even with ship bonuses on thorax). And how much did the fitting requirements increase? For the difference in grid and cpu, you can fit tank that negates the nominal damage increase.
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