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K Shara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:59:00 -
[1]
Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 13:59:29 Now here is the breakdown of skills actually trained.
LARGE HYBRID SPEC 4
Gunnery V Small Hybrid Turret V Medium Hybrid Turret V Large Hybrid Turret V Controlled Bursts IV Motion Prediction IV Rapid Firing IV Sharpshooter V Surgical Strike IV Trajectory Analysis IV Small Railgun Specialization IV Medium Railgun Specialization IV Large Railgun Specialization IV
55 skills; Total time: 194 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, 15 seconds
CRUISE LAUNCHER SPEC 4
Missile Launcher Operation V Standard Missiles III Heavy Missiles III Cruise Missiles V Cruise Missile Specialization IV Guided Missile Precision IV Missile Bombardment IV Missile Projection IV Rapid Launch IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Warhead Upgrades IV FoF Missiles IV
48 skills; Total time: 129 days, 7 hours, 1 minute, 30 seconds
STD + HVY + CRUISE SPEC 4
Missile Launcher Operation V Standard Missiles V Heavy Missiles V Cruise Missiles V Standard Missile Specialization IV Heavy Missile Specialization IV Cruise Missile Specialization IV Guided Missile Precision IV Missile Bombardment IV Missile Projection IV Rapid Launch IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Warhead Upgrades IV FoF Missiles IV
60 skills; Total time: 198 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes
LARGE HYBRID + BLASTER SPEC 4
Gunnery V Small Hybrid Turret V Medium Hybrid Turret V Large Hybrid Turret V Controlled Bursts IV Motion Prediction V Rapid Firing IV Sharpshooter V Surgical Strike IV Trajectory Analysis IV Small Railgun Specialization IV Medium Railgun Specialization IV Large Railgun Specialization IV Small Blaster Specialization IV Medium Blaster Specialization IV Large Blaster Specialization IV
68 skills; Total time: 243 days, 22 hours, 8 minutes, 18 seconds
ALL MISSILE SPEC 4
Missile Launcher Operation V Standard Missiles V Heavy Missiles V Cruise Missiles V Standard Missile Specialization IV Heavy Missile Specialization IV Cruise Missile Specialization IV Guided Missile Precision IV Missile Bombardment IV Missile Projection IV Rapid Launch IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Warhead Upgrades IV FoF Missiles IV Rockets V Rocket Specialization IV Torpedoes V Torpedo Specialization IV
78 skills; Total time: 275 days, 23 hours, 41 minutes, 45 seconds
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K Shara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 14:04:12 Edited by: K Shara on 17/08/2006 14:02:39 God I hate the same post every week claiming that missile skills take less time to train etc etc. So here is a post to explain to those people who cant / wont do math.
PREMIS :
Training support and spec skills to level 4.
Numbers based on a nub chararacter with no learning and no implants.
We all know that to train a Large gun spec skill you need to train the smaller gun spec skills as well.
Missiles however dont requier you to train any other missile spec skill as a prereq.
Some people claim this is unfair. But here are the numbers.
Quote:
LARGE HYBRID SPEC 4 55 skills; Total time: 194 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, 15 seconds
CRUISE LAUNCHER SPEC 4 48 skills; Total time: 129 days, 7 hours, 1 minute, 30 seconds
STD + HVY + CRUISE SPEC 4 60 skills; Total time: 198 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes
LARGE HYBRID + BLASTER SPEC 4 68 skills; Total time: 243 days, 22 hours, 8 minutes, 18 seconds
ALL MISSILE SPEC 4 78 skills; Total time: 275 days, 23 hours, 41 minutes, 45 seconds
As you can see missile users have the advantage ONLY if they train one launcher type. If they train 3 launcher types they fall behind in training time.
If a gunuser trains bot the short & long range guns (blaster + rails, pulse + beam etc) its take a ong time. But not as long as a missile user would take to train all missile types.
If ccp make a heavy rocket launcher that requires a new skill then training times will be even longer for missile users.
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K Shara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.17 14:10:00 -
[3]
if you add adv learning 4's (no charisma) + learning 5 and +3 implants its
large rails + blasters = 157 days
all missiles 177 days
So, next time you whime about missile skills being easier to train.... DONT.
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IamBen
Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.17 15:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: IamBen on 17/08/2006 15:03:33 Good post. It took me way longer to get my missle skills up to greatness than it did to get my gun skills up. IN addition, most missle launchers usually have rapid launcher and target navigation lvl 5 :(
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.08.17 18:26:00 -
[5]
Yeah, everyone has been telling me its faster to get T2 missiles and shiled tanking skills that gunnery and armor tanking. I guess it depends heavily on you skills
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Tresh Keen
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Posted - 2006.08.18 07:31:00 -
[6]
Great post! I totaly agree with it. Compare the hole bunch and not only a single module.
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Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.18 11:06:00 -
[7]
Just to play Devils Advocate here but
isnt training all missile skills to 4 like training all of pulse, beam, rail, blaster, autocannons and arty to 4? you have gained the ability to use the full range of missles great! but if i want the full range of guns it takes what twice your estimation to do
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Edania Just to play Devils Advocate here but
isnt training all missile skills to 4 like training all of pulse, beam, rail, blaster, autocannons and arty to 4? you have gained the ability to use the full range of missles great! but if i want the full range of guns it takes what twice your estimation to do
Edania, no it's nothing like that. It's not "Missiles" and "Turrets"...it's "Missiles", "Hybrids", "Lasers", and "Projectiles". Why? Because there is no ship that gives a bonus to "All turrets"...you get ships with bonuses to missiles, hybrids, lasers, or turrets (of the appropriate small, medium or large variety of course. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Apertotes
Nuevos Horizontes
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Edania Just to play Devils Advocate here but
oh, so that's why the Devil got sacked from heaven...
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Alain Josviar
Minmatar Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:04:00 -
[10]
Nice selective analysis to fit your premise you have there. The complaint is and has always been that to get into a ship like the Raven you only need to train torps or cruise and their prereqs which are significantly less than turrets. To mount T2 turrets you have to train ALL of smaller gun's specs to level 4. To mount T2 cruise or torps you don't have to train light spec 4 or heavy spec 4 or even rockets spec 4. You only need the smaller missile's BASIC skill trained to level 3.
Now run along and get back on the short bus kid.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:06:00 -
[11]
Alain, it's SUCH a flimsy argument. How many people do you know that ONLY fly a BS EVER? Find me someone with level 5 in Cruise and Torps and NO skill points in small or heavy missiles. They don't exist.
If anything, the requirement tree on gunnery is only "forcing" you to do something you'd CHOOSE to do anyway. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 18/08/2006 14:03:05
Originally by: Edania Just to play Devils Advocate here but
isnt training all missile skills to 4 like training all of pulse, beam, rail, blaster, autocannons and arty to 4? you have gained the ability to use the full range of missles great! but if i want the full range of guns it takes what twice your estimation to do
Edania, no it's nothing like that. It's not "Missiles" and "Turrets"...it's "Missiles", "Hybrids", "Lasers", and "Projectiles". Why? Because there is no ship that gives a bonus to "All turrets"...you get ships with bonuses to missiles, hybrids, lasers, or turrets (of the appropriate small, medium or large variety of course.
And, add into that that in ANY given "turret" group there are at least TWO variations on the launcher...and in most cases three. When you multiply this up by named and Tech II versions, you end up with between 12 and 18 weapons to choose from, in each size and range class. With missiles, comparing class to class, you get ONE variant in each class...so again allowing for Tech II and named variants...just 6 launchers.
Again im afraid i disagree you have turret Hardpoints and you have missile hardpoints theres nothing stoping you using small energy turrets on a heavy missile ferox and its quite effective many people ignore what boni a ship gives. and on a scorp for example there is no boni just turret Hardpoints and missile hardpoints
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Edania Again im afraid i disagree you have turret Hardpoints and you have missile hardpoints theres nothing stoping you using small energy turrets on a heavy missile ferox and its quite effective many people ignore what boni a ship gives.
I can't think of ANY reason why you would choose to just walk away from what is normally a 25% damage output increase. And I'd swap "quite effective" for "deadly" any day.
Originally by: Edania and on a scorp for example there is no boni just turret Hardpoints and missile hardpoints
Scorp is an ECM ship, that's why. Not exactly a representative argument.
Look at it another way...find me a module that adds to the damage of ALL turrets...there isn't one...it's either lasers (heat sinks), hybrids (magnetic fields) or projectiles (gyrostabilisers) (and missiles (BCS's)).
Missiles. Lasers. Hybrids. Projectiles. You know it's right, you're just arguing for the sake of it. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grey Area
Missiles. Lasers. Hybrids. Projectiles. You know it's right, you're just arguing for the sake of it.
well yeah im arguing for the sake of it i personally favour neither side but this thread was one sided
and i can name one a Tracking computer
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:56:00 -
[15]
Doesn't affect DAMAGE. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Alain Josviar
Minmatar Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grey Area Alain, it's SUCH a flimsy argument. How many people do you know that ONLY fly a BS EVER? Find me someone with level 5 in Cruise and Torps and NO skill points in small or heavy missiles. They don't exist.
If anything, the requirement tree on gunnery is only "forcing" you to do something you'd CHOOSE to do anyway.
No it's not.
A lot of people just want to get into a cruiser or battleship for either gang PvP or mission running as fast as possible. No newb is going to say, hey I want to fly a BS, so I can run lvl 4 missions or a HAC so I can WTF pwn in PvP, but I think wait to train heavy's, torp's and cruise missiles while I train rockets and light missiles, because one day I may want to fly a frigate for a change. You're right that no veteran will only have battleship skills as they're more apt to expand their play style, but those just starting out want to get combat effective as fast as possible and for cruiser sized ships and up missiles offer THE fastest route no if's and's or but's.
Any large T2 turret set will take 4.3 mil skill points compared to T2 cruise and torps combined at 2.7 mil. Any medium T2 turret set will take 2.8 mil skill points compared to T2 heavy's at 0.8 mil or even heavy's, light's and rocket's at 1.6 mil combined.
The total number of sps between T2 turrets and T2 missiles is actually pretty close, but the path to get to T2 cruiser and above weapon systems is drastically in favor of missiles and that's the crux of the argument since one can train directy to their desired missile class instead of starting at the ground floor and training each step.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:39:00 -
[17]
But again...it's quick start, limited choice. That's the balance. You want to fly a quick BS, then you want to fly a Raven. You want to fly any OTHER BS, then you have to go back to the drawing board, train all the support skills for gunnery and take the slow route.
Fast but limited, slow but varied. Your choice. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Bobby06
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Posted - 2006.08.18 22:20:00 -
[18]
I started training gunnery first ... but i started missile als o .. i want to get heavy mis and then i think i will resume to heavy turrets ...
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Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grey Area Doesn't affect DAMAGE.
ehm yes it does, the more often you hit the more damage you do sure it doesnt increase theoretical maximum damage against a stationary target but it cuts down the misses against anything thats moving
you cannot seriously argue that it doesnt add to damage
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SkyCrane
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:52:00 -
[20]
I can't think of ANY reason why you would choose to just walk away from what is normally a 25% damage output increase. And I'd swap "quite effective" for "deadly" any day.
First of all, choosing minmatarguns on an APoc is brilliant. Absolutely no capusage what so ever, which means you can consentrate all your cap on tanking.
Second: Claiming that trackingcomputers doesn't add to your DPS is either ignorant oridiotic. If you can't hit the target, you don't do any damage now do you?
Third: I have another module for you which add to damage on both turrets AND launchers: Targetpainters....
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Trou Omagetron
Caldari Drake Hunter Warriors
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:52:00 -
[21]
i think the balance here is that turrets, T1 or T2, are harder to avoid as they will hit the target almost the instant the weapons are fired. Has anyone seen a Raven camp a gate at 100km+ and use presision cruise on a target, and for them missiles to actually hit before the target warps/jumps? missiles do more damage and are easier to train, as the time taken from launch to impact is far greater than turrets. missiles can be evaded, but turrets cannot. this sort of explains why turrets are harder to train for, as they are more effective and will do a vaster ammount of damage due to a faster reactivation time and lower delay from activation to impact than missiles. (\_/) (o.o) (> <)
Your dual 1400mm Howitzer II perfectly strikes bunny, wrecking for 500.6 damage. end of bunny's plans for world domination |
SkyCrane
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:54:00 -
[22]
Simple way to avoid turrets: Trackingdisruptors. Explain how you avoid missiles if you cannot warp out.... You can even hit your targets fine when scrammed too
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GPerson
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.19 08:55:00 -
[23]
K Shara needs to pay more attention to the people she is arguing against. Not once do any of them say you can specialize in all missile types quicker, in fact, I recall many people saying that in order to spec in all missiles is more sp than to spec in turrets. BUT, in order to specialize in the largest weapons of that type (large turrets + torps/cruise), turrets will require more sp than missiles.
In short, you are arguing against "Turrets need more sp to spec in than missiles", when what they mean is "Large turrets need more sp to spec in than large missiles."
In fact, you said this yourself,
Originally by: K Shara As you can see missile users have the advantage ONLY if they train one launcher type. If they train 3 launcher types they fall behind in training time.
, you just didn't realize that was the very point of the arguments you were trying to disprove. ~~~~~~~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~~~~~~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. |
Trou Omagetron
Caldari Drake Hunter Warriors
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Posted - 2006.08.19 09:01:00 -
[24]
having been camped by 2 ravens with cruise, and numerous apocs/domis/megas i do know that turrets are harder to evade, as i have yet to be hit by missiles from gate campers. most tracking disruptors only reduce the optimal range of the turrets, it doesn't make them miss constantly. i'm sorry. but your arguement can be balanced by other things rather than just skill training times. for one, missile skills cost more, unless you forgot. (\_/) (o.o) (> <)
Your dual 1400mm Howitzer II perfectly strikes bunny, wrecking for 500.6 damage. end of bunny's plans for world domination |
Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.08.19 09:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Trou Omagetron but your arguement can be balanced by other things rather than just skill training times. for one, missile skills cost more, unless you forgot.
True in general but to say skill costs is a serious part of balancing is far fetched all skills sub HAC or CC cost a quarter of a pitence even to a casual player and its only a one off payment
Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
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Gothlarin
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.08.19 09:17:00 -
[26]
Ok let's talk about dps... if you shoot a torp at a frig... you won't do much dmg at all.. if you shoot that 1400mm Howitzer it will do lots of dmg IF you hit. And the bs argument isn't always true.. in many cases a beginner would be better off fighting in a cruiser/frig then in a bs since he/she can then actually replace that ship if lost, and bs aren't the only ships effective in pvp. Next point.. Tracking disruptors are all fine and dandy.. but what about defenders? Last point, wich beginner would start out training torps or cruise? we all started in frigs so we started with frig sized weapons, and missile support skills missile projection/bombardment and so on.. they don't affect other weapons, the gunnery support however work for all the turrets
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K Shara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.19 14:40:00 -
[27]
Look people who are disagreeing with me.
Dont :)
All I am saying with this post is that to train 1 missile type to spec 4 takes less time than guns.
But to train the equiv flexability with missiles takes longer.
to train both short & long range guns within a group ie rails + blasters, pulse + beam etc takes alot less time than to train the equiv of missile skills.
Now for those of you who argue that you should have to train std missile spec then heavy missile spec yo train cruise spec your argument falls down because thetraining time is longer and there is nothing to fit in the ree rocket ??? torpedo
Accept that missiles are differnt,
TBH it wouldnt worry me if they changed it ass I have all missile spec to 4 on on 2 of my characters anyway.
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ShadowKi
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.19 15:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Edania Again im afraid i disagree you have turret Hardpoints and you have missile hardpoints theres nothing stoping you using small energy turrets on a heavy missile ferox and its quite effective many people ignore what boni a ship gives.
I can't think of ANY reason why you would choose to just walk away from what is normally a 25% damage output increase. And I'd swap "quite effective" for "deadly" any day.
Originally by: Edania and on a scorp for example there is no boni just turret Hardpoints and missile hardpoints
Scorp is an ECM ship, that's why. Not exactly a representative argument.
Look at it another way...find me a module that adds to the damage of ALL turrets...there isn't one...it's either lasers (heat sinks), hybrids (magnetic fields) or projectiles (gyrostabilisers) (and missiles (BCS's)).
Missiles. Lasers. Hybrids. Projectiles. You know it's right, you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Well some Amaar use different turrents cause big lasers suck cap like crazy...
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.19 16:54:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Aramendel on 19/08/2006 16:55:23
Originally by: Trou Omagetron most tracking disruptors only reduce the optimal range of the turrets, it doesn't make them miss constantly.
*All* tracking disruptors reduce optimal range and tracking. For weapons with low optimal/falloff ratios (for example ACs) the optimal range reduction is usually less devestating than the tracking reduction. For weapons with high optimal/falloff ratios the optimal range reduction is worse.
Tracking Disruptors in general have no automatic effects, but are dependant on the way you move in addition to the tracking disruptor effect.
Also, training for different turrettypes is quite often necessary. As was said before multiple amarr tank outfits rely on projectiles. Also, I myself was training projectiles in the last week, too, because my corp is based in angel realm and lasers utterly suck vs these targets. Fixed damagetypes 4tl. In order to be flexible with turrets you need to train for different sizes AND different types.
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Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.20 02:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: SkyCrane
First of all, choosing minmatarguns on an APoc is brilliant. Absolutely no capusage what so ever, which means you can consentrate all your cap on tanking. {/quote]
except that min guns no longer require cap, so you really are throwing away a bonus.
I agree with your other points though
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